Topic: Bring your gun to the cinema !!

[BobbyR]

Quote :

"But as the years go on and the country gets crazier—stirred up by paranoiacs, political hardliners, lobbyists, and simple gun-fetishists—I come nearer to my wife's side. The universe of scenarios in which carrying a gun seems prudent or useful just keeps shrinking and shrinking, even as the legal freedom to wield personal firepower keeps expanding. The NRA has recalibrated its message for the 21st century: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." But in many ways, the 21st century has already overtaken us good guys."

Ouch.
Maybe it's different here in Europe because we have had actual shooting wars on our territiory twice in the last 100 years (not to mention what happened in Ireland in pretty much all the 20th century). Have we learned a lesson about firearms that the USA has not ? I'm not judging anything, just trying to learn.

Kev

The US is a Country that was born at the muzzle of a gun. The local Militias were made up of citizens who would grab their weapons and help out the Army. The tradition of the Citizen soldier evolved. In the early days people and communities had to fend for themselves, so they had Guns along with axes and other necessary items.

The US Bill of Rights and Constitution gave the individual more rights that the government. You are seeing this struggle today as the population is regaining their individual rights. As children we were taught we have rights as individuals, and should not give them away easily and fight to keep them.

The US is a very young Country with an evolving culture. We did not have the mythologies that were abundant in Europe.

Our closest thing to a mythology we have was the Cowboy. They were rugged, self sufficient, kind to strangers, and quick to fight if needed. He carried a pistol on his belt, and a rifle on his saddle.

Kev, you said you wanted to learn, here is a small portion of the big picture. 
 

[Duke McDukiedook]

Even the wild west had places you could not carry guns freely.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

[jaguar]

A gun is an inanimate object.
Just as likely to rise up in your defense as it is to run around at night killing people.

How about less focus on the tool and more focus on the people that use a tool for evil?
Maybe we can talk about the mental health system here in the US?

At the end of the day guns kill very few people.  Even less when you figure that many reports say the statistics are 50% suicide.
Unsure if we have actually have a "gun violence" issue.  I see more of an issue with the media trying to sell fear 24/7

[ofreen]

[vfourfreak]

Quote :

"But as the years go on and the country gets crazier—stirred up by paranoiacs, political hardliners, lobbyists, and simple gun-fetishists—I come nearer to my wife's side. The universe of scenarios in which carrying a gun seems prudent or useful just keeps shrinking and shrinking, even as the legal freedom to wield personal firepower keeps expanding. The NRA has recalibrated its message for the 21st century: "The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun." But in many ways, the 21st century has already overtaken us good guys."

Ouch.
Maybe it's different here in Europe because we have had actual shooting wars on our territiory twice in the last 100 years (not to mention what happened in Ireland in pretty much all the 20th century). Have we learned a lesson about firearms that the USA has not ? I'm not judging anything, just trying to learn.

Kev

The US is a Country that was born at the muzzle of a gun. The local Militias were made up of citizens who would grab their weapons and help out the Army. The tradition of the Citizen soldier evolved. In the early days people and communities had to fend for themselves, so they had Guns along with axes and other necessary items.

The US Bill of Rights and Constitution gave the individual more rights that the government. You are seeing this struggle today as the population is regaining their individual rights. As children we were taught we have rights as individuals, and should not give them away easily and fight to keep them.

The US is a very young Country with an evolving culture. We did not have the mythologies that were abundant in Europe.

Our closest thing to a mythology we have was the Cowboy. They were rugged, self sufficient, kind to strangers, and quick to fight if needed. He carried a pistol on his belt, and a rifle on his saddle.

Kev, you said you wanted to learn, here is a small portion of the big picture. 
 

I understand, and thanks Bobby.

One could also say that modern Ireland was born from the muzzle of a gun, and in the 1920s there were probably more weapons in circulation per capita than pretty much any other place on the planet.

Then, terrorism aside which plagued the country till the late 1990s, the gun virtually disappeared from private ownership, and the police force (in the south at least) are mostly unarmed.

Gun crime is fairly unknown, aside from out and out gangsters, and they tend to use their weapons on each other.

I'm just wondering about the differences. Like I said, the USA has no monopoly on mental illness, we have our fair share too.

Kev

[BobbyR]

Even the wild west had places you could not carry guns freely.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

You are correct. I used the word Mythology on purpose. On any given year there were more shootings in Boston than Tombstome or  Dodge City.

This became our cultural model and as the fear of restrictions mount, gun sales go up. I wish everyone would calm down. But, Politicians need a band aid and newspapers need a story.

[ofreen]

Gotta get the crazies the help they need and a better way to monitor them 

It would be curious to actually find the "cause" of their disturbed ideas, and rid the world of that.

That was covered pretty well in "A.Clockwork Orange."

[Duke McDukiedook]

And weapon makers have widgets to peddle.
And I just wish cooler heads would prevail but we know how that story goes... 

[vfourfreak]

Even the wild west had places you could not carry guns freely.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

You are correct. I used the word Mythology on purpose. On any given year there were more shootings in Boston than Tombstome or  Dodge City.

This became our cultural model and as the fear of restrictions mount, gun sales go up. I wish everyone would calm down. But, Politicians need a band aid and newspapers need a story.

Politicians yes, like in some local or state sort of fellow. But a presidential hopeful ? ?

Has this happened before ?

Kev

PS we are sorely close to the "P" word, but we are doing fine so far.

[calj737]

Did net from Ireland Kev may be the vast population here (+320,000,00) and the expanse of the country. In our cities, which tend to be very densely populated, gun crime leans more towards street violence, drug trade, what not.

The cases of mentally ill citizens shooting up a church, school, theater and so on are a reflection (in my opinion) of the percentages (1:10,000,000) within every population where you will have a few bent rods intent on evil doing. Perhaps, if our media stopped publicizing these tragedies, and enflaming the idea for these ill folks, the idea and tendency would diminish.

Also, U.S. Is a large country with equal rights across all states. Some areas are very rural and guns are used for hunting, and even some personal protection because the cops are literally hours away. It's the exception, not the rule, but the culture of access to firearms is long standing. And for those that want guns, they will not cede their rights quietly. (Me included, full disclosure). But many of us are very reasonable and do respect the outward discomfort of carrying "open". And I don't know anyone who truly wants to be the hero. Lots who profess they wish they had been there because... But that's bravado I readily discount.

I guess it's really a matter of: if I'm law abiding, and cause no trouble or commit crimes, then why should I not be allowed to responsibility own, possess, carry a firearm of my choosing? This to me is the most valid argument.

Okay, I concede some limits are legitimate. But where is that boundary? 3 round magazines, 8, 10? I know from personal experience, if you haven't solved the problem with the first 3 shots, you'd better start negotiating  And more bullets in your magazine aren't going to change the outcome.

The only legitimate argument I've heard to counter the "gun control" advocates is this: you want to limit my guns because of what I might do. Yet, vehicle accidents cause far more deaths, injury, property damage than all gun crimes combined over a decade. And still, cars are able to exceed 100mph from the factory. Why not limit a car (or motorcycle) to our national highest speed? This prevents a lot more deaths, injuries, accidents and high speed escape chases by the police?

So the "limit" argument cuts in lots of different ways. Those who oppose firearms, are themselves unwilling to have a car speed limited because "I've done nothing wrong with it, I don't have any tickets, no accidents, my driving record is clean!" I say, "Exactly my point!" 

It won't be long before autonomous cars and electronic limits are in place. Maybe then, the government will have the ability to look into whackjobs evil mind and prevent their actions before they commit them. I think it's called Minority Report in fact.

[vfourfreak]

Thanks all for a reasoned debate. I suppose I'm trying to plumb the safety / freedom / legal situation.

I'm curiously feeling safe here in France.

Where I cannot have a gun.

Kev

[demon78]

Ok gents ladies you are taught that it is you right to pack a gun are you also taught that you are responsible for the ones you kill? In other words a law of physics equal and opposite reaction it looks to me there is a social law as well equal and opposite maybe you can pack but if you don't use it responsibly you are on the hook for the damage and I don't mean jail I mean you pay for the wife and kids all the living expenses whatever the costs, no cheap way out by state execution you are kept going until the debt is settled I wonder if that would in time cut down on the gun mentality.
 Curious.
Bill the demon.

[calj737]

Ok gents ladies you are taught that it is you right to pack a gun are you also taught that you are responsible for the ones you kill? In other words a law of physics equal and opposite reaction it looks to me there is a social law as well equal and opposite maybe you can pack but if you don't use it responsibly you are on the hook for the damage and I don't mean jail I mean you pay for the wife and kids all the living expenses whatever the costs, no cheap way out by state execution you are kept going until the debt is settled I wonder if that would in time cut down on the gun mentality.
 Curious.
Bill the demon.

I doubt it, Bill. The incident rate of law abiding citizens shooting unintended victims is extraordinarily low. Besides, we have Civil court here for "wrongful homicide" cases where this such issue would be addressed.

[BobbyR]

Even the wild west had places you could not carry guns freely.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

You are correct. I used the word Mythology on purpose. On any given year there were more shootings in Boston than Tombstome or  Dodge City.

This became our cultural model and as the fear of restrictions mount, gun sales go up. I wish everyone would calm down. But, Politicians need a band aid and newspapers need a story.

Politicians yes, like in some local or state sort of fellow. But a presidential hopeful ? ?

Has this happened before ?

Kev

PS we are sorely close to the "P" word, but we are doing fine so far.

A presidential hopeful is nothing more than someone who started off as a local politician and worked their way up. Hilliary is an exception.

For you to make sense of the US can be difficult. With 50 States with differing laws and customs it would be very hard to have a uniform law. It seems confusing, but it is a very good system if you work with it. 

I spent some time in law enforcement so I have a unrestricted carry license. I simply do not carry except on a a very rare occasion. Like you, I feel quite safe, the US is actually quite safe. There are spots it is not very very safe, but that is anywhere.

I need to go tend to the Babe Thread, it needs some serious content .

[Retro Rocket]

Even the wild west had places you could not carry guns freely.

Guns were obviously widespread on the frontier. Out in the untamed wilderness, you needed a gun to be safe from bandits, natives, and wildlife. In the cities and towns of the West, however, the law often prohibited people from toting their guns around. A visitor arriving in Wichita, Kansas in 1873, the heart of the Wild West era, would have seen signs declaring, "Leave Your Revolvers At Police Headquarters, and Get a Check."

When Dodge City residents organized their municipal government, do you know what the very first law they passed was? A gun control law. They declared that "any person or persons found carrying concealed weapons in the city of Dodge or violating the laws of the State shall be dealt with according to law." Many frontier towns, including Tombstone, Arizona--the site of the infamous "Shootout at the OK Corral"--also barred the carrying of guns openly.

You are correct. I used the word Mythology on purpose. On any given year there were more shootings in Boston than Tombstome or  Dodge City.

This became our cultural model and as the fear of restrictions mount, gun sales go up. I wish everyone would calm down. But, Politicians need a band aid and newspapers need a story.

Politicians yes, like in some local or state sort of fellow. But a presidential hopeful ? ?

Has this happened before ?

Kev

PS we are sorely close to the "P" word, but we are doing fine so far.

A presidential hopeful is nothing more than someone who started off as a local politician and worked their way up. Hilliary is an exception.

For you to make sense of the US can be difficult. With 50 States with differing laws and customs it would be very hard to have a uniform law. It seems confusing, but it is a very good system if you work with it. 

I spent some time in law enforcement so I have a unrestricted carry license. I simply do not carry except on a a very rare occasion. Like you, I feel quite safe, the US is actually quite safe. There are spots it is not very very safe, but that is anywhere.

I need to go tend to the Babe Thread, it needs some serious content .

I suppose it all depends on what you call safe and what you are used to, we've had huge debate on gun laws here as well, you are 15 times more likely to be shot in the US than in Australia, I feel very safe here...

[calj737]

Come now, Retro, we have 14x more people! We are absolutely bound to have more nut jobs doing stupid, evil things. 

[eigenvector]

At the risk of becoming unpopular again, I'll voice my opinion.

I don't think it has anything to do with the presence or availability of firearms.  I shot competitively before my spinal injury and never once in the presence of all those firearms did I feel unsafe.  I'm not trying to be glib, I'm just pointing out that it isn't the tool, it's the person.  Here in the US we value freedom, independence, over social harmony and when you combine that with people who have poor judgment - you get violence.  That's the price we pay for a generally libertarian society - and one I wouldn't trade for anything.  If you worry about gun violence, focus on why people want to commit violence.  Solve that and you'll be mankind's savior.  Confiscate my rifles and I'll just hate your guts.

[Spanner 1]

Don't think I've ever heard a gun debate without the very American term 'good guys' and 'bad guys'... so simplistic ! Who gets to decide who is the 'good guy' who should be allowed a carry permit ?. Obviously white, middle aged  and of a particular political persuasion would be first in line..... slippery slope indeed !! If all the good guys had guns they could shoot the bad guy trying to randomly shoot the unarmed 'sheep' in church/ movies/ game, wherever. Yep, white armed privilege is what we want to add to all the existing white privilege that already exists in this country.

[Retro Rocket]

Come now, Retro, we have 14x more people! We are absolutely bound to have more nut jobs doing stupid, evil things. 

 

[nixon]

this guy..

[nixon]

Come now, Retro, we have 14x more people! We are absolutely bound to have more nut jobs doing stupid, evil things. 

the numbers dont lie..

per 100,000 population per year

canada - 0.51
australia .11
America land of the...gun.. 3.55

thats homicides only..alot of accidental etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

[ekpent]

Don't think I've ever heard a gun debate without the very American term 'good guys' and 'bad guys'... so simplistic ! Who gets to decide who is the 'good guy' who should be allowed a carry permit ?. Obviously white, middle aged  and of a particular political persuasion would be first in line..... slippery slope indeed !! If all the good guys had guns they could shoot the bad guy trying to randomly shoot the unarmed 'sheep' in church/ movies/ game, wherever. Yep, white armed privilege is what we want to add to all the existing white privilege that already exists in this country.

Not true. In Michigan it simply boils down to the fact if you have a criminal record or mental history or not. There are no longer any gun boards etc. who make judgements. "White Privilege" or the color of your skin has no bearing on it. Pink,yellow,green,purple, red,black, white all qualify if you are in good standing. Of course a training course is mandatory also. My Son recently went through the whole process.

[calj737]

Don't think I've ever heard a gun debate without the very American term 'good guys' and 'bad guys'... so simplistic ! Who gets to decide who is the 'good guy' who should be allowed a carry permit ?. Obviously white, middle aged  and of a particular political persuasion would be first in line..... slippery slope indeed !! If all the good guys had guns they could shoot the bad guy trying to randomly shoot the unarmed 'sheep' in church/ movies/ game, wherever. Yep, white armed privilege is what we want to add to all the existing white privilege that already exists in this country.

Hollow drivel. Not even close to on point.

[BobbyR]

Come now, Retro, we have 14x more people! We are absolutely bound to have more nut jobs doing stupid, evil things. 

the numbers dont lie..

per 100,000 population per year

canada - 0.51
australia .11
America land of the...gun.. 3.55

thats homicides only..alot of accidental etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

Nope numbers don't lie.

1 in 4 Women come down with Breast Cancer.
1 in 6 Men get Prostate Cancer.

In the US.
13.10 cars out of 100,000 ended up in fatal crashes. The rate for motorcycles is 72.34 per 100,000 registered motorcycles.

A national study by the Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATS) found that:
Motorcycle rider deaths were nearly 30 times more than drivers of other vehicles.

OK, so safety is an illusion. We accept the risk when we ride.

[calj737]

Come now, Retro, we have 14x more people! We are absolutely bound to have more nut jobs doing stupid, evil things. 

the numbers dont lie..

per 100,000 population per year

canada - 0.51
australia .11
America land of the...gun.. 3.55

thats homicides only..alot of accidental etc
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate

I won't dispute for a moment that there's a gun-death problem here. The only dispute is whether it's from "good guys" being irresponsible or from criminals committing crime upon each other.

But a variable that must be factored in is population density where the preponderance of the incidents occur. For instance, add the population of NYC and Chicago together and you're quite close to all of Oz. And all of that is stuffed into an area smaller than Sydney and Melbourne. That many people together created social problems and anti-moral behavior. Throw some guns into the mix, and you've got a recipe for a problems.