Hi All!
I started this build thread a few days ago on ADVRider and the guys over there suggested I cross post it as you all are the experts. After reading a few threads I can certainly see why! Some real smart folks here
I think to start I will just go ahead and re-post my initial few writeups on that thread. (link here
http://advrider.com/index.php?threads/1973-honda-cb350f-build-log.1114935/ to view on ADVRider) Lengthy post incoming...
start
Post #1Howdy!
After nearly a year of ownership, tinkering, and learning on my 1977 BMW R100/7 (
over 1000 post log here...) a '73 Honda CB350F came my way and I couldn't pass her up. So I took her home and now we're here!
I've been wanting to put the skills and confidence I've gathered with the immense help of people on my
Airhead thread to use and this little Honda is the perfect platform for me to do that. Some more pictures...
Some thoughts on build direction...she's light as a feather (~350lbs dry) and revs to 10 grand, what could be more fun than that! Everything I do to this bike will be in an effort to emphasize those two characteristics. Light, and rev-happy. I don't want to go full cafe as it is such a small displacement bike, but rather somewhere between race (to highlight the 10k redline) and tracker/brat like my Airhead (to highlight the weight). I don't want to chop this old gal up, but rather bring out what I feel is her inner character. I'll try to keep these few things in mind each step of the way.
Some things I really like about this bike so far, and want to keep for the ensuing build. The gauges!
I absolutely love the color, really cool! The shells should restore okay, and the crackly interior may just be something I run with. The gemmed indicator lights are great too. If possible I'd like to keep this whole cluster and just lower it/fit it into place better. I hope I'll be able to do that. Another thing I love is the tank color and pinstriping.
It's really great! The right side is doing better than the left, but neither are really all that great. The tank itself is relatively solid - certainly not rusted through. I will try to seal it with a product like
Red Kote at some stage and see how it holds up, so expect that. I'm not sure whether I will keep the original rough look, or get it repainted. Either way, it will stay the color it is now and keep the pinstriping (which looks to just be a sticker). One more cool thing, the "VIN". I put this in quotes as these VIN numbers weren't really standardized until 1979, I guess you could call this my "Frame Number".
CB350F - 1023000 ! How cool is that! Insignificant I know, but a nice number nonetheless
from what I gather this makes it the 23,000 CB350F made. Cool
I think that about covers it for now. I hope you all will enjoy this! I know I will. This log is equal parts for you as it is for me, I really enjoy posting pictures here and gathering all your thoughts on things so I hope we'll be able to do that. My R100/7 thread has been tremendous and has changed me in many ways. It's helped me grow as a mechanic and become more comfortable tinkering and understand the machines I so love. I'm looking forward to this thread doing the same.
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Post #2Step one: cleaning! That took a while...progress is good but certainly a ways to go. Makes me all the more eager to drop the engine and put everything through a parts cleaner or soda blaster. I focused mainly on the engine area for this round. Started with a degreaser.
Before
After
Not much to show for four hours work...but better than it was. It was helpful for getting aquatinted with the bike at least. A few things I noticed while I was in there. Remember my special frame number? Welllll....
Looks like we don't have a match. So much for that! CB350FE-1023055 down low, CB350F-1023000 up top (on frame and plaque). No big deal. This is also neat, displacement stamped on the cylinder head. Nice touch.
All this cleaning was a good starting place but it left me wanting even more...more clean, more polish. The only way I think I'll be able to achieve that is by removing the engine and individually washing and cleaning each part. This would also give me access to clean and even paint the frame. Some people have been telling me to get her running before I do all this stripping, and I can certainly see the benefits to that. It'd be something like a "she ran before I took her apart" feeling. That being said, I feel like I may be doing a lot of the same work twice if I go that route.
My gut feeling right now as for "next steps" is to get the engine out, get everything apart, and start cleaning while re-installing with my new components as they come. Does this sound like a recipe for disaster? Happy to hear any of your thoughts talking me into or out of these next steps.
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Post #3Take it apart, do it right... What's the worst than can happen? It still doesn't run after you spend the equivalent of 3 heavy bar tabs with friends and your liver is better off? Hardly a disaster...
I think you're on the right track. The question is do you want it to look like the CB500 written up here or do you want a cool, old "driver", or a radical 'new-age', 'olds cool' bike? Whatever way it shakes out it needs to be mechanically sound. With the exception of an electronic ignition upgrade I'd strive to have any non-stock mods to be period correct. I'd succumb to modern tires but other than that I'd strive for period correct aesthetic.
If you make it a new school take on an old school cafe bike that's neat too. If most of the metal is good (tank, fenders etc) I'd go for more of a restore than anything but that's just me.
Personally, either way, a bike that isn't 'sorted' is worthless IMHO. I don't care how cool it is via pedigree or how cool it looks... Get the engine right (not necessarily overhauled but cleaned, valves set etc, carbs right, spark right, brakes right, chassis right etc), get the bike sorted... Take it apart and get it to where you'd welcome the opportunity to take 3 weeks to ride from Daytona to Laguna Seca, see some sights etc. That's the standard I'd apply and a standard I'd respect...
Side note: I always loved the OE 4 pipe exhaust... Your 350 and any 4 pipe late-60's/early 70's Honda have to be some of the prettiest bikes ever.
Now this is my kind of attitude! You're right. She doesn't work now, I can't make her not work much less! Thanks for giving me the boost I need, I'll be stripping and bagging tonight. After that I'll begin reconditioning all the salvageable metal parts I can. It will certainly save me a few bucks on parts, and will also let me learn how to restore these various metals to their original luster (aluminum, steel, chrome, etc).
I'm with you on getting her mechanically sorted. That's one thing my R100/7 ownership has taught me. A bike can look pretty, but if it's not sorted it really is worthless. I'm committed to giving the engine a total run through to make sure its proper. From what I felt with the kickstarter it had good strong compression. Starter isn't connected so I haven't bothered hooking up my gauge to get true readings.
As for looks I don't want to go too modern, except where it counts. I think electronic ignition and new coils is one of those places, especially for city riding. Suspension I'm going to go with a simple black spring / chrome damper set up like I have on the BMW. Still trying to work out a good brand to go with for these. Suggestions welcome, so long as they are black springed with chrome dampers.
I have no exhaust headers or pipes on this bike so I'm on my own with that. I thinking a
MAC 4 into 1 system would go well. One pipe = less weight, or at least thats my reasoning...
I'd stick on a
shorty pipe on rather than the muffler it comes with as I really like how that sounds on my BMW.
The piece I'm most excited for is a custom air box built by
Steel Dragon Performance. It's made in the USA and is the only one I've seen like it. Rather than run pods (which I really don't like) I was looking for a single airbox / 4 output setup. The one they make is really beautiful. This will allow me to remove the stock airbox and battery holder, without having to go the pods route which I feel is too modern looking. I think this hand-machined piece will add to the classic feeling of the bike.
Seat and bars I'm still trying to work out. Hopefully the images above give you all some idea as to the look I'm going for. Thanks for the input CJ3Flyer, I appreciate it!
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Post #4I've had 3 of them in the last 5 years...worst bikes ever! Same with the 400F...
Just kidding! :lol3 They're fantastic. Have you rode a 350f or 400f yet? The sound and feel is exhilarating yet refined & smooth, in the city you will be a very happy guy! My current vintage ride is a '75 400f, the extra 50cc's isn't much but the extra gear is nice for an extra blip as you race about. :-)
If you have any questions along the way in your build just give a shout. I restored the one below last spring, it's residing in Japan now. (pardon the pipes, for a quieter ride) Good-luck on your build!
Hah! Haven't ridden one yet. The 10k redline with a 4 cyl engine sounds like a dream, I can't wait to get her going! I've just ordered a pair of
Hagon rear shocks and front springs. This was a big performance choice which I nearly didn't make, but I've decided the bike deserves the best I can give her so I'll try to do that!
I've ordered number 2 in this image below for the rear
And this set of front springs
The shocks are calibrated for my weight, riding style, and bike in-house at Hagon in California. I went slightly oversize at 335mm (stock is 310mm). This, combined with properly adjusted sag, should give me really great handling. I ordered the front springs to balance out the upgrade. With the right air gap up front and some proper rubber I think this thing will really be dialed in. Total cost for the shocks, front springs, adjustment, and shipping was $350. I think this is more than fair. I'm glad I didn't go with the cheap eBay chinese ones.
Heading down to the studio now to get stripping! Wish me luck.
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Post #5Awesome!!!
I have ridden both a 350 and 400. Rode the 400 (a lot). Super sweet bikes... Glad you're tearing into it.:thumbup
Tearing into it I am! Your push a few posts back is all I needed...
The BMW's are getting a bit of work too
My goal is to have the engine out and whole bike stripped TONIGHT. With the help of my sister and Clymer manual, I think it's totally possible. Getting started tearing into this has given me a huge boost, I'm all the more eager to see it come to life! I've been in touch with the wonderful guys over at
4into1.com and placed a relatively large order. Bill at Hagon suspension helped me order the rear shocks and front springs, and I also picked up a few odds and ends from
Dime City Cycles. For completions sake, I'll post a complete order list with links below...
Phew! Lots of stuff...how do you think my credit card feels!? In all seriousness, I took the time to budget for this build accordingly and set aside some money so that I'd be able to do this right. I original went in thinking I'd stay relatively cheap on parts, on after really digging into the bike I think it is too good of a platform to disservice with cheap chinease odds and ends. I want to put the money in places which will make this bike shine. I think the sound ignition, battery, and electronics (building a from-scratch harness) will really help this bike during city riding, as well as at high RPMs. I think the Hogan suspension will make the bike not only sit better, but have responsive and quick handling to match its light weight. I'm trying to spend money where it counts here, and I think those are the areas which do - at least for my setup.
Expect more pics as the teardown continues tonight!
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Post #6Holy moly - I'm beat! That was really a fun time. Went through getting the bike down to as little as I could. Five hours later it's 2am and I've got this!
The more I take apart the more comfortable I get working on this platform. I'm starting to understand the systems in play making this particular bike work. The fork setup, the mounting points, suspension, electronics. As it goes apart, it comes together in my mind...somewhat. My sister was a huge help, nice to have an extra set of (small) hands. She did the bagging, labeling, and organizing...no surprise. I've got a bunch more pics and a full writeup with a couple questions to do tomorrow, but for now this will have to tide you all over
PS: yes...I know the engine is still in there despite me saying I'd get her out! I did this on purpose for now as I don't exactly know HOW to rest it. My only engine stand has a truck engine on it. Can I use the oil pan as a base? Or will the weight of the engine crush it. Any tips would be greatly appreciated! She's (somewhat stably) balanced on apple boxes for now...
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Post #7Onto the teardown log! I worked from about 7pm to 2am on this, and enjoyed every minute.
After getting the rear wheel off I moved on to the wiring. I plan on completely building this harness from scratch. I've dealt with enough wiring gremlins on my last bike and I don't want anyone else to have to go through that! I'll be removing any unused wires and only making the harness as complete as I need it to be. I'm really looking forward to this. Anyways, I got yanking.
She came apart pretty easy. My fingers are still sore from undoing those bullet terminals! I only had to snip two wires, so I'm happy with that. The two which gave me trouble were spliced with these quick terminals.
Not the end of the world as I don't plan on using the old harness any way. Wanted to keep it in tact as much as possible for reference or the odd event that I need it. Here is how she sits now.
Handlebars and forks came off next, as well as gauges, front wheel, and front brake.
The forks were in less good condition than I had anticipated.
It looks like the inner fork tube has a fair bit of rust. I'm don't have much experience with re-conditioning metal parts, so it's hard for me to gauge right off the bat whats salvageable and what isn't. My next step after this is going through everything I took off, coming up with the right reconditioning and polishing method, and giving it a shot. This will hopefully save me a couple bucks in salvageable parts, but also give me some much needed experience restoring this kind of thing. Anyone please feel free to advise me in this area, I'm a novice but eager to learn. If the forks look un-restorable please let me know. If you have any tips on how to remove the pitting and rust I'd be happy to hear that too.
Anyways, onwards. I took out the front fork "shells" (those red pieces). At this point it really started to look naked!
I was following the steps in my Clymer to remove the engine. I took off the foot pegs, shift lever, and oil filter assembly. I was pleasantly surprised to see that the oil actually didn't look half bad!
It was dark, but still showed a distinct amber. I was expecting sludge so this was nice. Ignore those floating bits in there, they came off the oil filter. Speaking of which, the bolt holding the filter assembly on was completed rusted through. I managed to get my socket totally locked onto it!
It took some "Free All" (anti-seize, like PB Blaster) just to get it to break free. I next attempted to remove the steering assembly but didn't have a wrench which would fit. My Clymer said I'd need a special tool, is this true? At this point the tear down was about as complete as I could get it, for now.
It was 2am and I was beat! But totally satisfied with how everything was going. I was going to remove the engine but couldn't find a nice way to stand it up. ADVDucs mentioned some blankets and a sheet of plywood would do the trick, so I'll give that a go today or tomorrow. Some remaining issues I'd like help with...
- That steering arm nut. Do I need a special tool? Or can I just find a wrench big enough and crack it off.
- The screws holding the left crankcase cover are completely stripped, as well as a few other of the engine covers. What's my best course of action with getting this off? I'll be sure to buy the correct JIS screwdriver like ADVDucs mentioned, but I think a few of the screws are past even that.
That's it for now! Any help on those two points would be greatly appreciated. I thoroughly enjoyed the tear down, and I hope you did too! More soon.
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Post #8just remembered. take a very close look at the upper/lower triples, where the forks tubes go through. some monkeys over-tighten the pinch bolts and crack them, nearly impossible to find.
on the stripped bolts, i'd wait until your impact driver comes in. you may get lucky on a few. on the others, you'll have to carefully drill just the head off. drill diameter is critical here, along with drilling depth. you need to leave enough left to grab with pliers later. to set the depth, you can mark the drill bit with tape. with all the bolts out or bolt heads removed you can remove the engine case and grab the remaining bits that are proud of the case. kind of a nice mod that i've done before is to replace all engine case bolts with socket head screws (aka allen bolts). i've gotten them at mcmaster-carr. the next owner will love you.
on the fork tubes. mine looked similar, but only under the shrouds, i sanded and painted them and left the shrouds off. take a look at my pic, it shows them there. you can save the fork tubes in this fashion but only if the corrosion isn't in the swept area of the seals. if corrosion is present there, it'll tear up your new seals. just fully compress your forks and see how high up the seals raise. hopefully the corrosion is above that. good luck!
bob p
I believe my corrosion is in a similar place, right where the guards sit. My guess is that water gets trapped in there and turns into rust. Will check with them fully compressed. I like the idea of replacing those screws with an easier to manage hex bolt. The JIS bit, nice as it is, is quite expensive and hard to find. This sounds like a good upgrade (and I love McMaster so happy to order from them!)
I received some bad news from Hagon today. Looks like they DON'T make front fork springs for my bike - the rep was misinformed. I was really looking forward to having that upgraded from end to match the rear. This puts me at a bit of a turning point with a few options. 1: Find another front spring manufacturer. The only two I've found which make compatible springs are Race Tech and Works Performance. This is pricy, and I'm beginning to wonder how much of an upgrade it really will be. 2: Leave the front end un touched. Clean the forks, replace the seals, drain and refill the oil with a proper air gap. This is the cheapest option, my fear is that I will notice a downgrade up front in comparison to my rear. 3: Full front upgrade. New triple clamp, braces, the works. I've read I can pull these of a CB 550 and have a nice bolt on upgrade. I would pair this with upgraded front springs. This is by far the most expensive and elaborate option - and I think it may be a bit overkill. When I set off on this project I did not want to be slashing and chopping this CB350F. I think removing the whole front and and replacing with the 550 would do this. It feels too modern for me.
Would love some opinions on where I should go from here. I'm leaning towards #2, leave the front end untouched and refurbish the existing bits. My main fear is that this will detract from the money I spent upgrading the rear.
EDIT: I've done a primative test on my front fork springs. Push and the go down, release and they come up. Works for me! I'm going to run with the (aka #2) for now and see how it goes. Can always upgrade.
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Post #9even though the 350 twins have a touch more hp, the 350f's are so smooooth! (4 little pistons whirling around better than two slugs i guess). i may have to build another some day.
ps i wasn't clear before, but there is a guy selling racetech springs on ebay.
Those are little! Love the thought. Should compliment my R100/7 really well. Can't wait to hear those little guys working hard at 10 grand...
I've reached out to Matt, a tech at race tech suspension. He's been a huge help in dialing this front setup. He's recommending a front spring to go with my riding style, height, and weight in the morning. With new seals, copper washers, and some proper oil (they recommend Sprectro 20wt Fork Oil OSFO 20) I think this would be a really nice front setup to match my rear. Just the right amount of performance while still keeping the stock front end. Will see what the price is looking like after the final build. Thanks for the eBay heads up noman, sorry for the misunderstanding.
endPhew! That was a stomachful...I hope some if any of you were able to make it through that. My main question now is what to do with my front suspension. Do you think the Race-tech front spring will be a nice, noticeable improvement which would compliment my Hagon rears? Or is it $200 unnecessarily spent. I apologize for the lengthy post and I hope some of you will be able to stick along as I build this bike out!
Edit: Trying to make this easier to read!
Edit 2: I've changed the name of this thread from "1973 CB350F Cafe/Tracker build" to "1973 CB350F 'Modest/Original' build" - I feel this better represents what I'm going for
