Author Topic: spark cap resistance  (Read 5970 times)

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Offline evinrude7

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spark cap resistance
« on: April 15, 2017, 12:15:29 PM »
i know 76 750 and on caps are supposed to show 10,000 ohms of resistance.  i'm getting 9000, 9600, 9750, 7800.  time for new correct?  sorry about the multiple posts in a row.  someone mentioned i should do a project thread but this stuff i feel is simply deferred maintenance from the PO and it's sorta boring.  no interesting pictures. 
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2017, 01:10:45 PM »
I'd venture to say maybe you have 5k ohm resistance caps? Those numbers could be a helluva lot worse in that case. If you had 10K and got those readings you would be in great shape.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #2 on: April 15, 2017, 04:20:14 PM »
So no need to replace? as k6 calls for 10k caps.

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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #3 on: April 15, 2017, 06:10:22 PM »
Is there a number on the plug cap? If so, it can be used to tell what the resistance is supposed to be. If coils and plugs are stock spec then you should go with the recommended plug cap resistance.

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2017, 03:18:25 PM »
looked at the plug caps.  a few had tiny writing on one end of them.  c-22, e-11, e-19.  one of them i didn't see anything. 
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #5 on: April 17, 2017, 04:56:38 PM »
i'm thinking muthaF'er is right.  i probably have 5k caps that are worn out.  it took me a while to figure out what he was saying but i guess my question is still valid.  if the 76 750K according to this thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67096.0 is supposed to have 10k caps what's wrong with my worn out 5k caps showing 9k?  that's a lot closer to 10k the recommended cap. 
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #6 on: April 17, 2017, 06:21:33 PM »
9K is better/less resistance than 10K if you are supposed to have 10K. MORE resistance = less spark. I would not replace in that scenario.  But hey, that's just me  ;)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #7 on: April 17, 2017, 07:06:20 PM »
i just ordered 4 from ngk.  $2.60 each.  with shipping the whole cart was less than 12 bucks.  these are 5k caps.  for $12 it's worth seeing if there is a difference.  still learning here.  thanks for the input. 

anyone else that is in the same boat and learning.  i took the ngk part number from vintage cb750 parts site and plugged it into the ngk site search.  vintage cb wants almost $8 a cap and their shipping is high. 
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #8 on: April 17, 2017, 08:03:10 PM »
That's good information that everyone that has older NGK caps should use. Replace them at that price!! One of the most overlooked issues with 40 year old bikes.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #9 on: April 17, 2017, 08:42:38 PM »
this might help too.

for 2 and 3
SD05FP     NGK Plug Cap
Item# NGK8325         

for 1 and 4
XD05FP     NGK Plug Cap
Item# NGK8641

it was the same price for the waterproof ones.  waterproof is designated with the P at the end of the part number.  the "non-waterproof" part numbers were SD05F and XD05F.  not sure there is much of a difference. 
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Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2017, 02:14:21 AM »
9K is better/less resistance than 10K if you are supposed to have 10K. MORE resistance = less spark.
I don't think this is true, but I'm not an electrical genius. I think the recommended resistance in an ignition is for reducing interference and also to help not burn up the coils, not to give a colder spark.

It doesn't make sense to me that having 9 vs 10 ohms resistance will give you a weaker spark.

Can someone smart explain either how I'm right or how I'm stupid?

Offline PeWe

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2017, 02:52:37 AM »
Hondam,an has written some about this. Here are 2
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=154074.0
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67096.0


Plugs... I have tried some different plugs. Most of them with real fuel in the 80's. Use NGK D8EA and it will work fine, std as well as double amount of horses.
I tried Iirridium plugs 2 years ago. The recommended version of Denso were colder than NGK D8EA (too cold for my engine and street use). I guess this can be an option for racers.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2017, 02:54:37 AM by PeWe »
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2017, 10:10:12 AM »
9K is better/less resistance than 10K if you are supposed to have 10K. MORE resistance = less spark.
I don't think this is true, but I'm not an electrical genius. I think the recommended resistance in an ignition is for reducing interference and also to help not burn up the coils, not to give a colder spark.

It doesn't make sense to me that having 9 vs 10 ohms resistance will give you a weaker spark.

Can someone smart explain either how I'm right or how I'm stupid?

Dave, my take about resistance, and I may be wrong, is basically related to flow. More resistance decreases total flow. This could be applied to water, air, electricity. Too much resistance and flow is greatly diminshed. With that said it also slows the spark/flow to change burn characteristics ie burn time of the plugs in relation to time of fuel delivery and valve/piston position relationship?? I probably haven't heard about protecting the coils?? I'm no electrical genius either but when I had caps and their resistors started going bad the resistance (ohms) increased (some seriously) the bike started running like crap and new caps solved that issue.

I'd also like to hear someone explain in an easy to absorb way that us non-electrical engineers might understand better.     
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline Bodi

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2017, 03:39:28 PM »
There's a fairly fixed amount of energy stored as magnetic field in the coil (this drops at high rpm as charge time reduces, the coils take some time to build the field when powered with the points closed but not much time). When the points open, the stored energy has to go somewhere as the magnetic field collapses: the coil secondary voltage goes up until it can discharge - hopefully through the two spark plugs connected to it. Once the plug gaps are ionized and a conductive plasma forms the spark current dictates how long the spark lasts. The ionization voltage doesn't change - it depends on the gas composition and pressure in the plug gaps. With metal sparkplug cables, direct caps (no resistance), and non-resistor plugs... the spark current is quite high and the spark duration is very very short. This short high current pulse causes an electromagnetic interference pulse, radio noise basically, that would cause static if anyone still listened to AM radio... it also causes misfiring and weirdness with electronic ignitions or ECUs. Adding resistance makes the spark last longer, it may be "weaker" I suppose but in practice a spark is a spark and the fuel will burn, and the reduced current peak plus longer spark duration drastically reduces the EMI pulse.
Usually you get better performance with resistor plugs, caps, or both (up to a point) contrary to popular belief. Using no resistance with pretty much any aftermarket electronic ignition is asking for trouble. I have not seen problems with 5K caps and resistor plugs in dual-fire systems, but found some misfiring with 10K caps plus resistor plugs so non resistor ones should be used with those caps in my opinion. But they are not easy to find.

Offline DaveBarbier

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2017, 04:13:14 PM »
There's a fairly fixed amount of energy stored as magnetic field in the coil (this drops at high rpm as charge time reduces, the coils take some time to build the field when powered with the points closed but not much time). When the points open, the stored energy has to go somewhere as the magnetic field collapses: the coil secondary voltage goes up until it can discharge - hopefully through the two spark plugs connected to it. Once the plug gaps are ionized and a conductive plasma forms the spark current dictates how long the spark lasts. The ionization voltage doesn't change - it depends on the gas composition and pressure in the plug gaps. With metal sparkplug cables, direct caps (no resistance), and non-resistor plugs... the spark current is quite high and the spark duration is very very short. This short high current pulse causes an electromagnetic interference pulse, radio noise basically, that would cause static if anyone still listened to AM radio... it also causes misfiring and weirdness with electronic ignitions or ECUs. Adding resistance makes the spark last longer, it may be "weaker" I suppose but in practice a spark is a spark and the fuel will burn, and the reduced current peak plus longer spark duration drastically reduces the EMI pulse.
Usually you get better performance with resistor plugs, caps, or both (up to a point) contrary to popular belief. Using no resistance with pretty much any aftermarket electronic ignition is asking for trouble. I have not seen problems with 5K caps and resistor plugs in dual-fire systems, but found some misfiring with 10K caps plus resistor plugs so non resistor ones should be used with those caps in my opinion. But they are not easy to find.

Prove it!

Haha just kidding, thanks Bodi, that was pretty easy to understand.

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2017, 05:42:38 PM »
hey i still listen to AM radio. 
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Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #16 on: April 20, 2017, 05:37:09 PM »
Got the new caps from ngk. No major difference in performance but a noticeable difference.  Started easier, ran smoother. 
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Offline Bodi

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #17 on: April 20, 2017, 07:01:02 PM »
OK AM still exists so someone must listen. But static can only improve the sports and godbothering talkshows that infest it.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #18 on: April 20, 2017, 10:14:09 PM »
Curious about your new caps. 10 ohms right? Did you happen to check them new out of the box?
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline evinrude7

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #19 on: April 21, 2017, 06:41:08 AM »
these are 5k muthaF'er.  i couldn't find 10k caps.  i believe these are the standard available caps today for our bikes.  not made of rubber but a hard plastic.  clicked in nicely and the rubber boots that came with the "waterproof" versions were nice and tight.  i thought about checking resistance out of the box but was pressed for time so i just slapped them on the bike and took it for a short ride. the end where the wire goes in, the rubber covers have a really small hole in them so it wraps tight around the spark wire.  takes a little fiddling but once in they are secure. 

it seems to me that the 10k caps were simply to prevent interference (as hondaman stated in another post) and not a performance thing.   

for 2 and 3
SD05FP     NGK Plug Cap
Item# NGK8325         

for 1 and 4
XD05FP     NGK Plug Cap
Item# NGK8641
cb750 k6 - ugly

Offline TwoTired

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #20 on: May 04, 2017, 08:51:22 PM »
Dave, my take about resistance, and I may be wrong, is basically related to flow. More resistance decreases total flow. This could be applied to water, air, electricity. Too much resistance and flow is greatly diminshed.

Jerry, this does apply correctly to DC theory.
But, coil operation is in the AC theory domain and behavior is different and more complicated to explain than the DC environments.

I'd also like to hear someone explain in an easy to absorb way that us non-electrical engineers might understand better.   


The dwell time and coil construction determine how much energy is stored at saturation.  When the coil's power is removed, the power soaked coil begins to loose it's stored energy and develops a voltage.  No current flows during this time and no amount of resistance has an effect on passed through the resistor voltage.  It is only when the voltage rises far enough to create spark across the spark plug gap, that current begins to flow.  Low or no resistance allows the coil's energy to dump fast at high currents.  The currents contribute to spark electrode heating and wear as well as a short discharge event.

Adding resistance to the spark circuit reduces the current flow through the spark gap, slowing the coil discharge event and making it longer.  This is because the stored energy is restricted from rapid discharge.  The total energy is still getting used, just over a longer duration.  An artifact of the added resistance, also slows the fall time of the initial pulse peak.  Rapid fall times include high frequency components, which are broadcast through the unshielded ignition wires (antennas). The delayed fall time also, therefore reduces radiated electromagnetic emissions.

I've included a reference diagram below of a captured secondary voltage wave form.  Clearly, it's not anything like a nice stable DC line.

C is the voltage rise in the secondary and is presented across the spark electrodes.
A is the point at which the spark channel is formed across the electrodes, where it then falls to spark maintenance levels.
B is the spark current event duration.
D is where the coils energy has depleted enough to halt the spark channel event.

Adding resistance leans/tilts/extends the slope at the fall from point A when current is flowing through the wires (EMI/RFI reduction effect).  But, it also extends the duration of B as it now takes longer to deplete the stored energy in the coil.

Note the Voltage needed to begin the spark event will NOT change, as spark formation is gap and between gap atmosphere dependent.  Also, the voltage to maintain the spark channel (B) will not change either, as that is what is need to maintain the ionized spark gap channel electrode bridge.  However, during the spark event, the current will be lower thus contributing to longer spark electrode life due the the jump off points on the electrodes heating less.  See also EDM. (Electrical Discharge Machining, removing metal with spark energy.)

Hopefully, the attachment will help with understanding.  Don't know if it is easy to absorb.  But AC theory is not found on the first rung of the knowledge ladder.  I'm sorry I couldn't find a waveform that actually showed the spark duration extension with increased resistance.  You'll have to trust me on that, I suppose.  But, it's a conservation of energy, thing.  And the resistors only change the rate of discharge not the quantity of discharge related to the coils' stored energy.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline flybox1

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2017, 06:40:41 AM »
Grab yourself some DR8ES-L plugs to go with those 5K caps  ;)
Rockauto has them for $1.49ea
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Offline KeithB

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #22 on: May 05, 2017, 06:59:16 AM »
TwoTired has given a good explanation.
While it may not make sense, the ignition system works better with the 10K resistance.
It makes no difference how you get to 10K, maybe "R" plugs and 5K caps or non "R" plugs and 10K caps.
Again, this is not a MAJOR performance difference but a subtle one that, combined with other correct settings, will make for an overall improvement in starting and running.
Nanahan Man

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #23 on: May 05, 2017, 09:37:59 AM »
So, am I seeing that a set amount of energy is stored and the full amount goes to the plugs whether it is a quicker event big bang without resistance or a slower event with the resistance allowing for more flame time?   
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: spark cap resistance
« Reply #24 on: May 05, 2017, 10:10:30 AM »
So, am I seeing that a set amount of energy is stored and the full amount goes to the plugs whether it is a quicker event big bang without resistance or a slower event with the resistance allowing for more flame time?

By jove, I think you've got it!   All in a few milliseconds!  ;D

The added resistance leans toward providing similar benefits as Multiple Spark Systems (MSD).  Both extend the spark event at the electrodes for a more involved burn during the combustion cycle, with resultant longer push on the piston during it's power stroke.

Cheers!

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.