I hesitate to wade in – I’m not trying to convince someone to change their mind and think the same way that I do, which is part of the evangelical mission – but there are a few things in this thread worth addressing.
First, the notion that Buddhism isn’t a “real religion” because the Buddha was the son of a king (?) and because of “self-annihilation.” (??!!) First, that’s offensive – who gets to judge what a “real” religion is? Second, you may be thinking of “self-immolation” – something South Vietnamese Buddhists did in the face of Christian persecution. But if you want to have a theological discussion of nirvana versus annihilation of the self, that’s something that we might better leave to Buddhists. There remains much that I – and people who are much better experts on the subject than I – can’t fully comprehend. Why would someone forgo nirvana to become a Boddhisatva?
While I also agree that there is little doubt a historical person named Jesus existed and people wrote about him, the four main books were written decades after his death. If you want a religious tome written closer to the life of a prophet, may I suggest the Qur’an – which is also acceptable only in the original language, Arabic. The Bible has been translated and changed so many times over the centuries to serve people’s opinions and the opinions of the day (King James Bible? New King James Bible? New, New King James Bible, anyone?) that it really shouldn’t be considered reliable. Happy to hear from someone who’s read it in its original version. I’ve read the Bible, the Qur’an (English translation) and some Jataka tales – they’re all pretty interesting in some ways as historical documents.
Regarding the Gnostics – they were persecuted for believing that one had a direct relationship with god, and that there was no need for hierarchy. This rankled the emergent Christian hierarchy, who worked with the Romans to eliminate the Gnostics and preserve their power. Elaine Pagels has written about this (and the origin of satan); I recommend her work.
The problem with many religions, and the source of interreligious conflict, is that many religions profess a monopoly on Truth-with-a-capital-T. There are some exceptions, including in the Christian tradition. But if one thinks he has a monopoly on the truth, all others are wrong, their beliefs illegitimate, and they are condemned to hell (hell! What a concept!). Part of this perceived monopoly on Truth for many is that they need to tell other people that they are essentially wrong and must convert to what the proselytizer believes. This is arrogant, but also sometimes harmful. In places where I work, evangelicals (New Tribes, ugh) are converting locals and condemning their pre-existing beliefs. These beliefs, however, have guided them for millennia and include ways of living in harmony with the environment. Now they are taught that god put everything on earth for them to use, and environmental degradation is one result.
Out of curiosity, if god made the wind blow to drown the Egyptians chasing Moses in order to punish them for their non-belief, what did the 85 people who died in the 1844 Lake Eire (Erie?) disaster do to piss off god and deserve their fate?
The world would be a much more peaceful place if people gave up thinking they have a monopoly on the Truth (“Buddhism is a fine religion, but it’s not the religion for me”) and stopped trying to convince others that they are wrong.
Thanks for taking the time to type all this out, firstly. I will address what you have partaken to state, firstly that Buddhism is not a religion, as I stated. For a religion, you must have a God, and Buddhism, as I understand it, follows what the originator stated, and that was to alleviate the suffering of his people, he created the state of meditation that would become Buddhism. This was to take the people out of their extreme poverty and depression over their state and give them some relief... since then, it has become many things to many people, especially when it melded with Hinduism, in several Asian countries. But, Buddha isn't a god. He was a man, he died, and was buried.
Now- about Jesus. It is fact that He lived, and that the four gospels were written a couple decades after his death, burial, and bodily resurrection. The episode in the Christ Revealed series that deals with this, with an interview with an atheist detective who was a cold-case investigator, who decided he would debunk the 'myth' of Jesus' life and death, and he examined the witnesses as he would any cold case, by comparing their accounts as eye-witness testimonies. After careful examination, he determined that they were telling the truth as to what they saw, and what they lived through. All four accounts in the gospels, were determined to be accurate, eye-witness accounts of Jesus' life, death, and bodily resurrection by an Atheist. This led him to start understanding what Jesus came to do, and he decided to accept the Truth he read, and is now a Christ follower. Quite an eye opening interview... as all of his co-workers in the police department were atheist also, couldn't understand what had happened to him...
As far as the Bible being translated so many times and 'changed' by the translators, where is your documentation and proof that this actually happened? On the contrary, there are over 22,000 pieces of archaeological evidence that supports a 98.5% accuracy as to whatever translation you pick up today has within it. So, your disinformation about inaccuracy, is just that... when you can give a viable source for what you state as truth, then I will look at what you are stating as something to consider.
And as far as the Qu'ran being unadulterated, read the history of where it came from. There was no written Qu'ran before the death of Mohammed. There were many people who had written down what he was saying, and there wasn't any standard to assimilate all of these 2nd hand accounts of his sayings, so they gathered them all together in the years after his death and burial, on every scrap of leather, parchment, tree bark etc. and the Imams compared them, threw out the ones that didn't jive, and that is what we now have as the Qu'ran. Now, they also have the Hadiths, which are like the Talmud in the Jewish religion. One interesting thing that is stated in the early part of the Qu'ran, is that they were to honor the Holy Scriptures... now, in 620 A.D., what Holy Scriptures WERE there... the Old and New Testaments. This is what Mohammed was told to honor by the Angel Gabriel.
Regarding the Gnostic gospels, they bear the names of people that were long dead and gone when the authors wrote them. This is why they aren't considered as authentic. I have read just about all of them, and for example, the Gospel of Miriam (Mary) is missing many pages, and is incomplete. So, there isn't even a complete copy anywhere to fully examine, and it was written about 120-150 A.D., well after Mary was dead.
As far as Elaine Pagels, her books are research and hypothesis about what she thinks, not what IS. Her work with the books discovered in the Nag Hammed library are not exactly something I would put great stock in, as she warps and bends things as any prejudiced author has done.
Now, the problem with religions, is that they are RELIGIONS! Religion is a stench in God's nostrils, and He detests what man has done in the name of religion. His plan was for a relationship with man, not a religion with Him. Man has created so many ways to NOT get to God, that He had to give us ONE WAY to get to Him. This ain't my invention, and I understand why God wants to do this. Now answer me this... if you were God, would you make many ways to get a relationship with You? Why would He have to do that... Rather, it would be illogical for Him to do so. There is and needs to be, only One Way to get to a relationship with God... that is to get to Know Him... not know about Him.
Now, about that wind that God sent to drown the pursuing Egyptians...who said it was to punish them for their non-belief? It was actually God Who hardened Pharaohs heart so that he wouldn't let the Israelites go, even after all the Plagues... so it was His decision, and not the Israelites. They were comfortable in Egypt until the new Pharaoh started persecuting them as he was afraid that they would take over... I think it's interesting that we would believe that we could think like God lol, and try to say that we would have done it differently than Him. How arrogant is that?
And as for the people in Buffalo who were drowned, that just happened to be a natural disaster, and wasn't due to God's Divine Judgment... but I added it as an example as to how God can use His Creation, for His purposes... how He used a natural way of parting the Red Sea, at just the Right Time, for the people to cross over, and then eliminate the Egyptian army. Ya see, God doesn't have to use 'magic' as His creation is awesome enough to accomplish anything He want to do.
I agree that people need to stop being 'religious' and start treating each other the way that God intended.. As Jesus was asked by the attorney.. what are the greatest commandments? And He answered...
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart, mind, soul and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. All the Law and the Prophets hang upon these two commandments."
i know that there are many things that we can discuss, and I have abbreviated much for brevity, but Thanks for engaging this discussion, brother!
Charlie
