Author Topic: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project  (Read 4651 times)

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Offline Smackychot

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Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« on: October 16, 2018, 07:51:04 PM »
Hello!


So thanks to the generousity of active and known SOHC4 user calj737, I have finally begun work on my CB550 (and more) Perm Magnet Alternator (PMA) Project!

The idea sprung up from seeing my previous short lived project, XS650, having similar charging issues i see expressed for the SOHC4s. Then a well known XS guy made a PMA solution for the XS, giving it the ability to go to a kick only, batterless life. The PMA also has no wearing parts, further making me like the appeal of a more reliable, simple machine.

When I decided to just make the commitment to finding my dream project, CB550, I saw no solution existed, or at least that i could find.

So, like i do with a lot of stuff, I decided to give it a go.

I might succeed, i will likely fail. But I will try, and learn in the process.

Just need to learn electromagnetism (I was previously a crap physics major, so not a far leap, still not easy), generator/alternator design, and source all the materials/services needed without losing money should I succeed the prototype stage.

EASY PEASY



Cal sent me a CB550 rotor, field coil, cover, and stator.

First steps are to replicate the parts in Solidworks for design reference (and to share with you fine folk should you need 3D models of them), and to send them back to Cal.

First up is the rotor. I could model the claw poles, but they are not exactly needed, unless i wish to run a sim of the current design. Not looking to make more work. This will do for any design purposes.

To measure that damn "taper into flat, into thread" bit, I took measurements in many horrific ways that tolerance stacking will murder me. But I figured out some ways to remove error. I also remembered I had some replication puddy I was "gifted" from work. I will check my initial measurements with that replication later.







Next up, stator measurements-to-model...

Offline minimo

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2018, 07:55:00 PM »
Calj, keeping the slogan alive - “You meet the nicest people on a Honda”

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2018, 09:43:03 PM »
Calj, keeping the slogan alive - “You meet the nicest people on a Honda”


This forum engine needs the plus 1 (+1)
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline dave500

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2018, 01:47:08 AM »
that taper may be a standard type of morse taper?hopefully not some metric/Honda thing?

Offline calj737

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #4 on: October 17, 2018, 02:55:26 AM »
that taper may be a standard type of morse taper?hopefully not some metric/Honda thing?
Excellent observation  ;)
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Offline Smackychot

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #5 on: October 17, 2018, 05:28:06 AM »
that taper may be a standard type of morse taper?hopefully not some metric/Honda thing?

Doesn't seem to be one as the taper is steeper than typical Morse tapers.

I tried to looked though and found some with similar angles which this one seems to be about 5 degrees. But I didn't dig much overall.

Offline kmb69

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #6 on: October 17, 2018, 07:07:11 AM »
that taper may be a standard type of morse taper?hopefully not some metric/Honda thing?

Doesn't seem to be one as the taper is steeper than typical Morse tapers.

I tried to looked though and found some with similar angles which this one seems to be about 5 degrees. But I didn't dig much overall.

Yep, this needs to be measured closely. I am working on a similar project for my 750 and will be using a 2014-2017 CB1100 alternator.
The taper on that crank and rotor are 1mm/5mm. In other words, the diameter changes 5mm over 25mm in length. Does not come out to an even angle.


Offline calj737

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2018, 07:17:43 AM »
Dang, Josh, had I known you needed the crank dims I would have sent you a spare, loose crank. Let me know if that needs to happen.
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline Smackychot

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2018, 08:30:09 AM »
Dang, Josh, had I known you needed the crank dims I would have sent you a spare, loose crank. Let me know if that needs to happen.

I didn't think the taper would be difficult to measure accurately. That damn flat right after the taper and before the threads makes it very hard as it blends so smoothly.

If it's not too much trouble, that would save me some hassle, but more importantly add accuracy to anything I make.

Just message me a PayPal or something so I can reimburse shipping. You've helped plenty.


Offline 754

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2018, 10:20:10 AM »
It's not hard to measure if you have the crank in a lathe and a dial indicator.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
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Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline tshrey

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2018, 10:59:47 AM »
Yes to the non-integer angles.  I don't have my measurments in front of me, but the stock tape is about 5.1 degrees and the CBR600 flywheel I am going to use is closer to 5.9 degrees.

Offline strynboen

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2018, 11:53:08 AM »
you can put a permanent magenet inside the old claw rotor..then use a regulator from a Suzuki/kawasaki...and reuse the Honda stator..but that vill not give any performance boost...juste vaste some energi to heat to regulate the autput....but still the magenets slow the engine down

but hov can a permanent magenent system give more power??? its the stator vho is the/vorking part/ limit..you can  make a thikker stator pack..use some plates..from a spare stator..and put more viring inn...as the copper vires gets longer..the thikker the stator metal hub is.(..must be deseined..so the volts not reise to heigh)

a big problem running perm magenet system..is the inbuild restistins..the crank gets harder to turn  stealing a lot of power...even vhen the systen runs idel..and not produse any elektricity...the stock Honda..runs almost free..give 2-3 hp to the hveels to ride farster..and turn free vhen the voltage is ideal

dont think you can run a battery free systen..and fire 2 coils/4 cylenders it takes atleast 4 amps to run the coils
« Last Edit: October 17, 2018, 12:12:42 PM by strynboen »
i kan not speak english/but trying!!
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Offline calj737

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2018, 05:20:44 PM »
dont think you can run a battery free systen..and fire 2 coils/4 cylenders it takes atleast 4 amps to run the coils
Au contraire, Electrex sells such a system for road racing. No battery required. Not sure it would hold up to street use though...

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/STK-550.html#SID=942

https://www.electrexworld.co.uk/acatalog/RPK-1550_Honda_CB500_CB550_-_Alternator_System.html#SID=918
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline 754

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2018, 06:56:50 PM »
Did the CR 750 have a magneto.. ignition ? And no battery I think .
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline Smackychot

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #14 on: October 30, 2018, 07:34:05 PM »
Progress is happening. Mostly theory/on paper sorta stuff.

There is no reason this wouldnt work out. Its just a matter of finding a good sized stator and magnet combo that doesnt bog the engine too much but still puts out enough juice.

I want to keep weight down as much as possible, and give enough headroom for those who wish to have higher power accessories.


The big hurdle now is figuring out what prototype i want to front the money for, as 1-offs are not cheap.

The other bigger hurdle is making this cost effective for everyone. Me, and the buyers.


Also I killed time at work by over modelling elements of the current stator and rotor.




Just the cover to finish up, and maybe if i get saucey, the entire crank shaft.




Soon will come real parts and broken fingers from strong magnets. It's about to kick off in the coming weeks.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 07:37:19 PM by Smackychot »

Offline 754

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #15 on: October 30, 2018, 09:34:18 PM »
A lot of people have tried systems that seemed based on a CB 350 twin system.

One thing  I had looked into a few years back was a 650 or 750  Nighthawk charging unit. Looks like the CBX unit
 It sit behind the cylinders and is driven by chain or gears, might be overdriven,
 All the parts weighed about 1/2 of what the CB 750 used, even the rotating part. The size of the center of rotating part, may be of a size that may not fit the crank snout.
 Because I had toyed with the idea of belt driving it, it was not a concern.... I thought belt drive magneto on one side, and belt drive charging on the other, might look cool.I think having it all behind stock or smaller dyno cover, wil, sell better.
Another thought was, to run an idler on the charging belt drive, then pulling the belt while racing, if it would reduce drag.
 Just thought I would put it out there as you were working on that sort ofvthing
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline 754

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #16 on: October 30, 2018, 09:42:31 PM »
 I realize the above mentioned is not permanent magnet, but could be of benefit to someone seeking more left side clearance
Like the one in this pic. Also the finned thing is the rectifier and maybe regulator.
I still have these parts, and the cover with holes , and finned part stashed somewhere.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 10:10:07 PM by 754 »
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline sinister902

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2018, 08:49:07 AM »
Def glad to see this project. I had begun down a similar road trying to find a more robust charging system to put on a cb650 based engine, but haven't had much time to dedicate to it. IIRC I was measuring somewhere near 6* taper on the cb650 crank but I was having similar troubles as you are experiencing gaining an accurate measurement. I did buy a few sportbike rotors to try out, and the best bet seemed to be Yamaha R6 but I didn't make it much further than that.

Offline Smackychot

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #18 on: January 10, 2019, 10:01:52 PM »
Hey. I'm still alive. And so is this project.


Thanks to this baby... (the bike not the puppy. He's a terrible assistant.)




After I get her looked over, cleaned up, and running smooth, i can dive into this PMA project again and begin prototyping.


Offline Gurp

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #19 on: January 15, 2019, 10:23:01 AM »
Maybe look at some old HD units. Find a way to adapt them over. They made it work for many years.
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Offline Smackychot

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 07:54:05 PM »
Current phase is to make a test bench for testing the output of this modern sport bike stator/rotor combo at typical CB550 idle RPM, and output when rotating at typical kick start RPMs. To see if it has enough ass to spark the spark plugs.




Once i can see output over specific RPMs, then I can go ahead with fabricating adapters:

1. A bushing for this rotor's taper hole, to the CB550 crank taper. So the rotor can fit on the crank. Measuring this new taper should be fun...
2. A mounting plate to go from the CB550 field coil mount holes to this stator.

Then with a reg/rect that can handle this output, it should be ready for a test on a real bike. For that i would most likely send it over to Cal to give a shot. Or if he is busy, some other volunteer.

New coils might be needed, but i do not know yet. 

My main concern with this whole thing is if the CB550 at idle wont be bogged down by a PMA, and if the PMA has enough juice at kick start RPMs. 

This combo now is quite strong it feels like, but a final custom product would be tailored better obviously.

Offline kmb69

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 08:19:18 PM »
.....
1. A bushing for this rotor's taper hole, to the CB550 crank taper. So the rotor can fit on the crank. Measuring this new taper should be fun...
.....

One way to measure an internal taper is to use 2 different size steel balls that fit at different locations in the taper. Measure the difference in the "height" of each ball from the same datum surface. Knowing that delta and the diameter of the balls, you can than calculate the taper relatively easy. Hope this helps.


Offline calj737

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #22 on: February 21, 2019, 03:49:29 AM »
.....
1. A bushing for this rotor's taper hole, to the CB550 crank taper. So the rotor can fit on the crank. Measuring this new taper should be fun...
.....

One way to measure an internal taper is to use 2 different size steel balls that fit at different locations in the taper. Measure the difference in the "height" of each ball from the same datum surface. Knowing that delta and the diameter of the balls, you can than calculate the taper relatively easy. Hope this helps.
How about a sine bar measuring the crank snout? Seems much easier to me  ;)
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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny sincerely exercised for the good of it's victim may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated, but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

Offline dave500

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2019, 11:26:10 AM »
is the new rotor lighter than the original one or heavier?it could alter the torque curve of the motor either way.

Offline tshrey

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Re: Giving The CB550 A Perm! Permanent Magnet Alternator Project
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2019, 01:15:04 PM »
I'm using a CBR600RR rotor and stator.  Cutting the taper spacer sucked.  The best way to measure an internal is as suggested above, get a set of reference balls and drop them into the hole and measure the height difference.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162408.msg2039044.html#msg2039044

Just finished up the stator mount recently...

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,162408.msg2049169.html#msg2049169