Topic: Aftermarket frame - group purchase

[754]

 All right then do it, and tell us what it cost.
 So what do you estimate for fitting tubes and all the welding.. even considering you have a tubing notcher and say a mill..
 I am guessing 20 hours plus.
 There us more people that think they can build a frame, than people actually doing it..
 Heck, even just a swingarm , could easily take 6 or more hours..
 Try it and see..
 

[slikwilli420]

We have already quoted the cost of raw materials. If I am doing it for myself, labor is free. Say $300 in materials (its less but to be generous) plus the cost of welding. If it takes a pro welding 20 hours (again, being really generous) thats $1200. Now Im in $1500 for a complete custom frame, and likely a whole lot less. People assign this mythical status to making a frame. Yes, there will be a difference between my home built frame and one from a pro fab shop, but with care of fitment and welding (Id use a professional welder to do mine) it may be very difficult to tell the difference.

[gschuld]

Hand fitting the tubing for a single frame will be time consuming no doubt.

But if Mirko designed programs that allowed the ability for a machine to create a complete “kit” with all pieces cut to a fairly precise degree of accuracy, then a high quality chassis welder could justify creating a proper jig and weld up a number of frames at potentially a reasonable cost.

That’s a lot of ifs, and all this cost time and money. I’m not bad on a tig welder, but I’d send that kind of job to someone I know who has been welding intricate custom chassis for 35 years.  His stuff is beautiful....

That said, I’m impressed with the performance that seems available in our old factory frames with a few hours of cleanup and gussets.

George

[slikwilli420]

George's comment hatched an idea. How about a frame kit? Get all the tubes bent and coped close enough that only some hand finishing is left and let the end user get them all welded. I would be in for that since much of the cost will be putting the tubes together. Shipping would be cheaper and likely way less hassle from customs paperwork wise.

[livefast_dieold]

Denis (CMR) is a close friend. He's been dying to build a frame for my 550. Tim V on here had two racebikes with CMR frames.

If anyone wants info from Denis, let Tim or I know and we'll get the "family rate" . 

I exchanged emails directly with him, very friendly and professional.
Maybe we can even ask him what would be the price if 5 or more people purchase the same frame...

But is there actually anyone here interested in a racing frame? Because if it's just me then this whole discussion is useless :-)

[gschuld]

That’s a good question regarding potential interested bodies.  Presuming a buyer would be interested in road racing, the classes you can race an aftermarket frame is somewhat limited, more so if it is monoshock as many classes require a traditional twin shock chassis.

I’ve had a number of discussions with Dennis Curtis and spent some time at his shop a few years ago while he was in the middle of building one of the XR-69 frames for the Team USA International Challenge.  Amazing craftsmanship👍  Talk about nice jigs😉

George

[MessnerMoto]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

[gschuld]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

What’s the fun in that when we can do it the HARD way😁

George

[slikwilli420]

just to clarify this hole topic.

Riccardo(livefast_dieold) was talking about getting complete assebled/welded/redytouse frame at your doorstep

What’s the fun in that when we can do it the HARD way😁

George

Oh George (shaking head)

I still would me more interested in a kit from a price standpoint and it would give me the ability to customize small details.

[gschuld]

I was just making light of our taking the original concept of having a hands off professionally built frame made to a very much hands on approach.

I think the frame kit approach is entirely doable logistically as long as all parties involved can maintain the same high level of craftsmanship.  From design/program, to CNC cut out frame kit pieces, to proper jig design and build, to aligning and welding the frame/swingarm.  One disappointment in quality in that chain and the results will be compromised.

FWIW, two pics from the CMR shop, one of Dennis next to one of his special frame jigs.

[754]

Look closer at the neck post fixture it's either milled or ground.. good as that is very important.
You can get by with less as I mentioned, some frames are built to loose spec, then straightened or tuned later
This fixture looks like not a modular design, some of the elements are tacked in place probably a temporary setup.
 My buddy uses one that is much more involved, his own design... and at least one of his is a rotissiere or swings at least 180 degrees for ease of welding.
 Another thing I used to do was work on production fixtures for  Western Star trucks.
 They used a modular approach that pretty much was adjustable in 2 planes in most cases, fine tuning with shims.. I would make pieces for the fixtures and  did a huge amount of drilling fixtures. I gained a good under standing of fixture design and  adjustability.
 Plenty of ways to get the job done, understanding the objective is a huge  factor.
 That said, no matter how good the coping is, you probably will still have to tweak the joint fitment,  sure they can be 3D milled, but you would not like the price.

[754]

 Calj737, Thanks for the link for the very well priced CroMo tubing..

[scottly]

Seeley and Rickman frames were made from Reynolds 531, not chrome moly, and were brazed, not tig welded. Reynolds 631 is more suitable for welding, IIRC.
The first rule of fabrication is whatever you think it will cost, double that, and even then it will take several finished pieces before you begin to break even, much less make a profit. If you want a Seeley frame, contact Roger. It will probably be cheaper in the long run, as he doesn't have to go through the learning curve again.

[754]

I have always thought 531 and 4130 were pretty much the same alloy. I would like to know the differences.

I think if you are thinking to build your own frame, build a swingarm first.   Make a for cast of what you think it will take timewise.. the  keep track of your time. That will tell the talem and give you a more realistic scope on building a frame..

 I think there is a big reason nobody is offering kits, people that already  are building frames  realise that if you can't go through all the steps, you may not be ready.
 That said , anyone that wants to build one, I would try to help with it..

[scottly]

I have always thought 531 and 4130 were pretty much the same alloy. I would like to know the differences.

Reynolds 531 is chrome manganese, not chrome molybdenum.

[turboguzzi]

Mirko, was kidding all along of course,
Nevertheless, we all seem to have short memory or simply were not around when Mec pulled together this mega project, already 10 years ago.
Still my hat's off to the guy after all these years

Look at what this guy has accomplished on a bare table.... and drool

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,44736.0.html

[slikwilli420]

Everyone geeks out on Chomoly but the fact is that even a quality DOM tubing with higher carbon content will be far stronger than a stock frame, from nearly any era. Chromoly is not lighter than regular steel as many think (most on here are aware but just reiterating the point) but you can use thinner material. Stock frames were roughly 0.065" wall tubing and with quality tubing (DOM or Chromoly) you could probably go down to 0.058" for main pieces and even thinner for ancillary pieces. Joe Sh*t the Ragman (as my dad calls him) can weld DOM any day of the week and likely surpass the quality of welds on stock CB750 frames while it takes far more skill (read $$) to get Chromoly done to the same standard. Im still interested in the kit as it takes the most tedious part of the job out of my hands. Precision bending of tubes is something that would take me a lot of material to get right while I can easily handle the jigging and welding part on my end.

[gschuld]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

[slikwilli420]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

All very solid points George. Though there are already outfits making Rickman CR frame as well. The exotica of the trellis frame is appealing but then again, it takes more to get that going like a custom tank that is already available for the Rickman option. The Egli is interesting but as already stated, very easy to produce relative to other frames so cost would be a different consideration. For me personally, N of 1, a stock frame with some nice enhancements made from better quality steel and eliminating all the stamped head tube crap is interesting.

[gschuld]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

All very solid points George. Though there are already outfits making Rickman CR frame as well. The exotica of the trellis frame is appealing but then again, it takes more to get that going like a custom tank that is already available for the Rickman option. The Egli is interesting but as already stated, very easy to produce relative to other frames so cost would be a different consideration. For me personally, N of 1, a stock frame with some nice enhancements made from better quality steel and eliminating all the stamped head tube crap is interesting.

So like the proper vintage Factory Honda CR frames.  Sure, that would make a lot of sense.  It also offers more realistic possibilities for the spendy cafe bike crowd.

You could do a slightly upgraded geometry version of the original CR frames too.  They were designed around the limits of the rather pathetic road race tires available 50 years ago.

Perhaps a modest head angle change, slight wingarm pivot lowering to account for the steeper swingarm angles used today, etc.

There is another factor though.  For many, with going through all the effort into building custom race frames, having the end result being a very unique visually frame add the WOW factor to impress others.  A CR type frame is hard to distinguish from a stripped down a race prepped $50 factory frame.  This affect is hard to ignore and is embedded in the male DNA.  Some more than others perhaps.

George

[livefast_dieold]

It’s important to consider what frame is being copied and how accepted these frames are for different classes.  Twin rear shock frames will certainly be more accepted in more classes.  This leads more toward Rickman or Seeley type frames.  Competing directly with a gentleman already building Seeley frames/swingarms, with Colin Seeley approval, isn’t such a great idea.

That leaves a Rickman or another lesser known vintage custom twin shock frame or a clean sheet new design.

Just something to consider.  Narrowing down what you’d want and finding out how many people could be interested in having one for x amount could be an important issue.

I have someone who could likely jig and weld a number of 4130 frames for a very competitive price with very high accuracy and quality.  I’m just not in the market for a custom frame personally.

George

All very solid points George. Though there are already outfits making Rickman CR frame as well. The exotica of the trellis frame is appealing but then again, it takes more to get that going like a custom tank that is already available for the Rickman option. The Egli is interesting but as already stated, very easy to produce relative to other frames so cost would be a different consideration. For me personally, N of 1, a stock frame with some nice enhancements made from better quality steel and eliminating all the stamped head tube crap is interesting.

can you clarify this?

Would you be interested in a stock frame but done anew with better materials? Or do you want to upgrade an existing stock frame?

I personally think that 90% of performance improvement from an aftermarket frame comes from using better materials and high-quality welds, rest from improved geometry and weight reduction. I'm not that keen on a specific design

[slikwilli420]

Stock frame with better materials would be a good start. The real question then is what do you REALLY gain? The stock frame is decent and with some careful bracing, is likely strong enough for all but the highest power applications. Weight savings from slightly thinner wall but better material would be negligible in the grand scheme of the bike. The real benefit comes from your proposal of a copy of a proven race frame. A lot of fat can be cut from a stock frame with a new design, but I don't have that luxury in my class. An then at that point, there are already frames available that meet the need, made by people who have been doing this very work for a very long time.

[bwaller]

Denis told me that he felt his new frame would not really save huge weight overall compared to stock because it's similar in design. Stronger yes, plus able to pick a head angle, change swingarm pivot position and bushing size to improve.

When John Davies (Davies Motorsports)designed his CB500 replacement frame, it was much lighter. I know John was talking at one point about playing in the 750 game, not sure if that will happen or not. One cannot argue with their success.

Point is I wonder if they had plans to develop a CB750 chassis. They did a good job with the 500. I will send John a note to catch up and find out. 

[turboguzzi]

before you jump on me, this is copied from Michael Moore's (eurospares) page.... not written by me. nevertheless, food for thought... if memory serves me right, also tony foale is a fan of mild steel for most home brewed efforts... so now that you know, you are welcome to flame me, or actually torch me with your oxi-acetylene tip...

"Frame materials: I use 1018 Cold Rolled Electric Welded (CREW) mild steel (MS) tubing. My understanding is that all of the steels have the same modulus of elasticity (Youngs Modulus) and are therefore equally stiff. This is why I chuckled at a Motorcyclist Magazine article where they raved how a chrome moly (CM) replica of a stock SRX600 swingarm was so much stiffer. CM steel is stronger, and will bend a bit more than mild steel before taking a permanent set. But you shouldn't be designing a frame with the tubes in bending, and as Kevin Cameron noted, not everyone is skilled enough to crash just hard enough to bend the MS frame, but not quite hard enough to bend the CM frame. CM is useful on dirt bikes as they are more prone to being dropped in rocks etc, and the CM won't dent as easily as MS. Carroll Smith avers that in many cases. unless you are going to be heat treating the part, CM isn't worth the additional cost. CM was originally developed to be gas welded together, and in the light gauges you will use probably wouldn't need normalizing if you do a reasonable pre/post heat with your torch. "

[livefast_dieold]

before you jump on me, this is copied from Michael Moore's (eurospares) page.... not written by me. nevertheless, food for thought... if memory serves me right, also tony foale is a fan of mild steel for most home brewed efforts... so now that you know, you are welcome to flame me, or actually torch me with your oxi-acetylene tip...

"Frame materials: I use 1018 Cold Rolled Electric Welded (CREW) mild steel (MS) tubing. My understanding is that all of the steels have the same modulus of elasticity (Youngs Modulus) and are therefore equally stiff. This is why I chuckled at a Motorcyclist Magazine article where they raved how a chrome moly (CM) replica of a stock SRX600 swingarm was so much stiffer. CM steel is stronger, and will bend a bit more than mild steel before taking a permanent set. But you shouldn't be designing a frame with the tubes in bending, and as Kevin Cameron noted, not everyone is skilled enough to crash just hard enough to bend the MS frame, but not quite hard enough to bend the CM frame. CM is useful on dirt bikes as they are more prone to being dropped in rocks etc, and the CM won't dent as easily as MS. Carroll Smith avers that in many cases. unless you are going to be heat treating the part, CM isn't worth the additional cost. CM was originally developed to be gas welded together, and in the light gauges you will use probably wouldn't need normalizing if you do a reasonable pre/post heat with your torch. "

To be honest I was refraining myself from making the same statement, from previous experiences on another bike forum you get yourself into trouble by saying that CM is pretty useless as it has the same elasticity of any other low carbon steel. For some reason CM fans get really angry when you point this out :-)