Topic: Sturgis redux

[Don R]

 Thanks CC, having some insight into that thought process gives me a little relief from my total lack of understanding of how these folks can argue against what I see as an easily proven fact.
  If I need surgery I prefer hand washing, gloves and masks, thank you.
 
 

[goodtryer]

You local experts on masks & disease transmission are needed at the CDC & WHO. They aren't getting the same "easily proven facts" you guys are:
 

CDC Emerging Infectious Diseases Journal, May 2020  https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs

“Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

WHO: Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19, 5 June 2020 https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-IPC_Masks-Children-2020.1

“Many countries have recommended the use of fabric masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider.”   (Oh my! Other harms? Say it ain't so..)

WHO: Advice on the use of masks for children in the community in the context of COVID-19, 21 August 2020

“Evidence on the benefits and harms of children wearing masks to mitigate transmission of COVID-19 and other coronaviruses is limited.”


https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

In summary, though we support mask wearing by the general public, we continue to conclude that cloth masks and face coverings are likely to have limited impact on lowering COVID-19 transmission, because they have minimal ability to prevent the emission of small particles, offer limited personal protection with respect to small particle inhalation, and should not be recommended as a replacement for physical distancing or reducing time in enclosed spaces with many potentially infectious people. We are very concerned about messaging that suggests cloth masks or face coverings can replace physical distancing. We also worry that the public doesn't understand the limitations of cloth masks and face coverings when we observe how many people wear their mask under their nose or even under their mouth, remove their masks when talking to someone nearby, or fail to practice physical distancing when wearing a mask.


What?! But this can't be! People who "follow the literature" and "fully understand the subject" told me the masks worked!!!
Comedy GOLD, Jerry!

"But this is different" in 3, 2, 1...

[carnivorous chicken]

You're crackin' me up and living up to your name, goodtryer! Good try, once again, you cantankerous contrarian!

First study is about the flu, not Covid.

The second study is about children. Although some people may think and behave like children, for the purposes of this post we are assuming you are not.

The third study compares cloth masks, N95 masks, and respirators. N95 masks, according to the study, are more effective. Here, let me cherry pick a few quotes like you did:

"An N95 FFR on coughing human subjects showed greater effectiveness at limiting lateral particle dispersion than surgical masks (15 cm and 30 cm dispersion, respectively) in comparison to no mask (68 cm)."

It notes that due to shortages, N95 masks should not be worn. But the study was published on April 1, so it was written some time in February or March, perhaps reflecting the US administration's confusing messaging on mask wearing in a misguided attempt to prevent a shortage for health care workers -- who they know needed masks. I know it's nine months later (And nine months after the study was published) and there are still a lot of people who are confused (including here), but the messaging on masks has been pretty consistent.

"Despite the current limited scientific data detailing their effectiveness, we support the wearing of face coverings by the public when mandated and when in close contact with people whose infection status they don't know."

So if you're going to cite an article to support not wearing a mask, perhaps you should find an article that states you shouldn't wear a mask.

Here, from Who (https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks?gclid=Cj0KCQiAhs79BRD0ARIsAC6XpaWqpz4iuReoCSuGHiZtXhGGqv72jWXd5Wjdf0j9KBOwtbzrUAWgnzcaAjtWEALw_wcB)

Make wearing a mask a normal part of being around other people.

Here, from the CDC (https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/more/masking-science-sars-cov2.html)

CDC recommends community use of masks, specifically non-valved multi-layer cloth masks, to prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2.

Here's some more recent research you might want to have a peek at: (https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/10/9/e039424.info)

"Conclusions The current coronavirus pandemic has left many communities without access to N95 face masks. Our findings suggest that face masks made from layered common fabric can help filter ultrafine particles and provide some protection for the wearer when commercial face masks are unavailable."

While it's kind of funny to spend time looking for stuff that confirms your bias and cherry picking the results, citing studies that aren't about Covid or are about children, posting sentences from studies that atually have different conclusions, not looking for (or more likely ignoring) more recent studies that contradict what you already think, and misrepresenting what major health organizations such as the CDC and WHO recommend (no, really, they recommend wearing masks), it's also somewhat reflective.

It boils down to a desire to feel "special" -- literally. It will motivate people to ignore facts and reality and seek out information that confirms the conspiracy. No amount of reason will change their minds.

[goodtryer]

First study is about the flu, not Covid.

Nice deflection. The study is about the efficiency of masks.

The second study is about children.

The study is about the efficiency of masks. IT'S IN THE NAME OF THE ARTICLE.

Getting back to the original premise for your post, doesn't the existence of all of this contradictory data/evidence/information/whatever give you ANY pause for reflection at all??

Without resorting to ad hominems like you have so many times previously or apologies like "I'm sorry you got mad"...


edit: missed bracket

[carnivorous chicken]

First study is about the flu, not Covid.

Nice deflection. The study is about the efficiency of masks.

The second study is about children.

The study is about the efficiency of masks. IT'S IN THE NAME OF THE ARTICLE.

Getting back to the original premise for your post, doesn't the existence of all of this contradictory data/evidence/information/whatever give you ANY pause for reflection at all??

Without resorting to ad hominems like you have so many times previously or apologies like "I'm sorry you got mad"...


edit: missed bracket

I'm sorry you are having trouble understanding the literature. I know it can be confusing, and perhaps tempting to single out one or two sentences that appear to support what you already believe. But rather than assert things that are the opposite of truth (such as the CDC or WHO don't recommend wearing masks when they clearly do) or getting lost as to what the article is talking about ("the article is about masks!" but in the context of the flu or children, and we are clearly (I think?) talking about adults and Covid) perhaps it's best to simply follow the conclusions and not get lost in all of the jargon of the articles' content.

Both the CDC and WHO recommend wearing masks as a precaution against the spread of Covid. So do myriad other accredited health organizations in the United States and elsewhere. You don't want to. I get it. We all get it. It's a pain sometimes. But we do it because it is the smart thing to do, and it shows that we care about those around us.

There are over a quarter million people dead in the United States and the death toll is rapidly increasing. Wearing a mask can decrease the death toll and the rate of infection. Doesn't that make wearing a mask a pretty small sacrifice of convenience for a pretty big payoff?

[goodtryer]

Cherry picking here, cherry picking there, we're all cherry picking. You just won't admit you're part of it. It's fine and I won't waste any more time trying to get you to.

You have moved the goalposts AGAIN. If you had asked me nicely to wear a mask, I might be more inclined to do so because, no, it's not a large sacrifice and I never said it was.

However, I object to being ordered to do it by unelected bureaucratic statists, lectured to about it by biased simpletons in the media, and harassed about it by blindly compliant masses who have never thought once about liberty, freedom, or independence.

You have made clear multiple times your disregard for the principles in the Constitution that guarantee the very freedom that it provides to do so. You reference it only when you find it convenient and you mock it when you disagree with it. Fine.

But you have no authority over me, no matter how loudly you shout it, no matter how earnestly you believe in your cause.

Your appeals to emotion and authority are hollow. Your obfuscations, distractions, and your willful blindness to directly contradictory evidence do not change reality.

I bid you peace, health, and happiness.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-Samuel Adams, 1776

[jlh3rd]

You local experts on masks & disease transmission are needed at the CDC & WHO. They aren't getting the same "easily proven facts" you guys are:
 

CDC Emerging Infectious Diseases Journal, May 2020  https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/26/5/19-0994_article?fbclid=IwAR2V1hPqN0WKb2kXVExP_1UE9ARvru6mtPZvZN0w1jx0S3l3fXLhxMP_bXs

“Although mechanistic studies support the potential effect of hand hygiene or face masks, evidence from 14 randomized controlled trials of these measures did not support a substantial effect on transmission of laboratory-confirmed influenza.”

WHO: Advice on the use of masks in the context of COVID-19, 5 June 2020 https://www.who.int/publications/i/item/WHO-2019-nCoV-IPC_Masks-Children-2020.1

“Many countries have recommended the use of fabric masks/face coverings for the general public. At the present time, the widespread use of masks by healthy people in the community setting is not yet supported by high quality or direct scientific evidence and there are potential benefits and harms to consider.”   (Oh my! Other harms? Say it ain't so..)

WHO: Advice on the use of masks for children in the community in the context of COVID-19, 21 August 2020

“Evidence on the benefits and harms of children wearing masks to mitigate transmission of COVID-19 and other coronaviruses is limited.”


https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data

In summary, though we support mask wearing by the general public, we continue to conclude that cloth masks and face coverings are likely to have limited impact on lowering COVID-19 transmission, because they have minimal ability to prevent the emission of small particles, offer limited personal protection with respect to small particle inhalation, and should not be recommended as a replacement for physical distancing or reducing time in enclosed spaces with many potentially infectious people. We are very concerned about messaging that suggests cloth masks or face coverings can replace physical distancing. We also worry that the public doesn't understand the limitations of cloth masks and face coverings when we observe how many people wear their mask under their nose or even under their mouth, remove their masks when talking to someone nearby, or fail to practice physical distancing when wearing a mask.


What?! But this can't be! People who "follow the literature" and "fully understand the subject" told me the masks worked!!!
Comedy GOLD, Jerry!

"But this is different" in 3, 2, 1...

exactly.....but it won't matter on here. If someone believes that mankind is causing climate change, you'll never convince them that throwing trillions of dollars at it to control it will not work because we can't control it.
    I love the " follow the science " when, in fact, history has proven science can be wrong. Yep, I remember the " we're gonna freeze" back in the 70's.......Please don't hit me with the 20/20 hindsight, monday morning quarterbacking explaining how wrong they were.
     So, just where is all the evidence that people are NOT wearing masks, as someone on here supposedly stated as a fact,  because I don't see it. Please, show me the graph confirming the allegations.......Oh, that's right, anecdotal doesn't count with some on here, .....but , yet it's part of the picture whether someone wants to accept it or not......I see more mask wearing than ever.
     This thread was started strictly related to a follow up of sturgis...........I'm sorry, I though sturgis was just in south dakota, so why are cases rising worldwide?
       So the increase was predicted way back in the spring. So now it's here, as predicted, so why the outcry and finger pointing? ...masks or no masks, right?
        I've said it before, so you shut everything down again, case numbers drop, open up again, the cases will start rising...again...So you shut down again?
        I haven't seen one post or graph on here that shows the statistics relating to the countless thousands , if not millions, of victims of business closures and shutdowns, and the associated, connecting personal fallout.......none......so, I guess that just doesn't count as part of the other fatality rate...in the minds of the anti - constitutional minds. It matters to me.
        So now there's a 95% effective vaccine, thanks to ,well, we know.....and, as viruses do, mutations down the road will render that less effective....so, we mask up and shut down again? Or do we continue living with this virus as we do every year with the spanish flu variants?... I choose that....
        Gotta get to the gym, I don't spend my life consistently on this ipad.......Any inference from anyone on here that I do not feel sympathy for wuhan virus victims is on them, not from me.
         
       

       

[jlh3rd]

Cherry picking here, cherry picking there, we're all cherry picking. You just won't admit you're part of it. It's fine and I won't waste any more time trying to get you to.

You have moved the goalposts AGAIN. If you had asked me nicely to wear a mask, I might be more inclined to do so because, no, it's not a large sacrifice and I never said it was.

However, I object to being ordered to do it by unelected bureaucratic statists, lectured to about it by biased simpletons in the media, and harassed about it by blindly compliant masses who have never thought once about liberty, freedom, or independence.

You have made clear multiple times your disregard for the principles in the Constitution that guarantee the very freedom that it provides to do so. You reference it only when you find it convenient and you mock it when you disagree with it. Fine.

But you have no authority over me, no matter how loudly you shout it, no matter how earnestly you believe in your cause.

Your appeals to emotion and authority are hollow. Your obfuscations, distractions, and your willful blindness to directly contradictory evidence do not change reality.

I bid you peace, health, and happiness.

"If ye love wealth better than liberty,
the tranquility of servitude
better than the animating contest of freedom,
go home from us in peace.
We ask not your counsels or your arms.
Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you.
May your chains set lightly upon you,
and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen."
-Samuel Adams, 1776

yep...Exactly......I guess they're gonna make us get a " vaccine " number stamped on my forehead if I wanna  be able to buy groceries..
    Don't EVER apologize to anyone trying to make you feel guilty for understanding what the constitution stands for. That is a tactic they use.

[carnivorous chicken]

Oh boy... we're back to the Constitution and "you can't make me!" and "It's the government! It's the media! It's the scientists!"

All rather than "It's the right thing to do."

You can't make this stuff up.

More than a quarter of a million people in the USA dead.

But you guys all showed "them" how hard you could freedom.

Stay safe.

[carnivorous chicken]

Comparisons to other causes of death are invalid, for numerous reasons that have been stated repeatedly. Please don't ask me or others to rehash them.

This is what your contribution sounds like, forgive the paraphrasing.

Wearing a mask saves lives and lessens the spread of Covid (overwhelming consensus from science).

You: "I don't believe the numbers"

They are verifiable, including the methodology as to how they are calculated, and many medical professionals think the number of deaths is actually higher than the official count. It's easy to find this information.

You: "People die of other things."

If only it was as simple as wearing a mask to help reduce heart disease, cancer, accidents and the other things you listed. A fire has started in a house -- it's seems like your'e saying "Don't put water on it, houses also fall from earthquakes and storms."

You: "People are getting sick with Covid, including asymptomatic people, and aren't dying."

Uh, yeah, no sh1t. Asymptomatic people who don't know they are sick and don't wear masks are potentially spreading it to people who are more vulnerable. Again, you're arguing that because the overall lethality rate is low compared to the number of poeple infected that it is no big deal. But as the number of people infected rises -- 11.3 million cases! -- so does the death toll, proportionately -- 247,000 people.

You: "I travelled in March at the height of the spread..."

March certainly was not the height of C19, it was the start for most places.

You: "Your mainstream sources..."

Science is based on consensus. Just as there is little anyone can do for people who think the Constitution means they shouldn't have the decency to wear a mask, there is little anyone can do for someone who thinks that the mass media, scientists, educators, health professionals, etc., ad infinitum, are lying to you (why, again?), that because you as an individual haven't gotten sick that the whole thing is overblown, that because people die of other causes then Covid is no big deal, etc. They just sound like self-justifications to avoid the inconvenience of a mask.

The information is pretty clear, straightforward, and backed by overwhelming consensus. Your fellow mask avoiders apparently gave up on trying to make scientific arguments when they realized they aren't sound, and reverted to "the Constitution" (see below). The justifications for not taking precautions are pretty thin compared to the benefits.

I'm curious, however, why you guys think they US has done so poorly with regard to C19 than other developed countries. I've asked it several times, but you guys just don't acknowledge it. Could it be because a large portion of the population just doesn't take it seriously enough and refused to take precautions?

[carnivorous chicken]

It must be nice to live in this alternative universe, where logic, science, the media, health professionals, common sense, evidence and other inconveniences simply do not matter. It also must be a bit strange to live life thinking that most everyone is lying to you, except for a (thankfully) small number of people who agree with you -- unfortunately mostly clustered in one country, which has objectively been among the worst in dealing with Covid. You win Cal -- it's all a concoction of lies from people who just can't see the truth.

[jlh3rd]

Comparisons to other causes of death are invalid, for numerous reasons that have been stated repeatedly. Please don't ask me or others to rehash them.

This is what your contribution sounds like, forgive the paraphrasing.

Wearing a mask saves lives and lessens the spread of Covid (overwhelming consensus from science).

You: "I don't believe the numbers"

They are verifiable, including the methodology as to how they are calculated, and many medical professionals think the number of deaths is actually higher than the official count. It's easy to find this information.

You: "People die of other things."

If only it was as simple as wearing a mask to help reduce heart disease, cancer, accidents and the other things you listed. A fire has started in a house -- it's seems like your'e saying "Don't put water on it, houses also fall from earthquakes and storms."

You: "People are getting sick with Covid, including asymptomatic people, and aren't dying."

Uh, yeah, no sh1t. Asymptomatic people who don't know they are sick and don't wear masks are potentially spreading it to people who are more vulnerable. Again, you're arguing that because the overall lethality rate is low compared to the number of poeple infected that it is no big deal. But as the number of people infected rises -- 11.3 million cases! -- so does the death toll, proportionately -- 247,000 people.

You: "I travelled in March at the height of the spread..."

March certainly was not the height of C19, it was the start for most places.

You: "Your mainstream sources..."

Science is based on consensus. Just as there is little anyone can do for people who think the Constitution means they shouldn't have the decency to wear a mask, there is little anyone can do for someone who thinks that the mass media, scientists, educators, health professionals, etc., ad infinitum, are lying to you (why, again?), that because you as an individual haven't gotten sick that the whole thing is overblown, that because people die of other causes then Covid is no big deal, etc. They just sound like self-justifications to avoid the inconvenience of a mask.

The information is pretty clear, straightforward, and backed by overwhelming consensus. Your fellow mask avoiders apparently gave up on trying to make scientific arguments when they realized they aren't sound, and reverted to "the Constitution" (see below). The justifications for not taking precautions are pretty thin compared to the benefits.

I'm curious, however, why you guys think they US has done so poorly with regard to C19 than other developed countries. I've asked it several times, but you guys just don't acknowledge it. Could it be because a large portion of the population just doesn't take it seriously enough and refused to take precautions?

I thought we've answered you. You think the US has done worse, others don't. All based on your data or our data, depends on the side you're on. What causes the problem on here is that I admit I/we look for data that supports me, I admit it.....but you and yours will not admit it.
     Who's not wearing masks? Seriously, who really isn't? Yet, here the world is again with rising cases. So what's wrong with a common sense observation of. " so maybe masks aren't everything they're claimed to be"
No, I'm not wearing a mask in my car, or outside walking in a park. You think I should be made to? Does your consensus point to that being a major contributor to the spread? And just how would that be accomplished? Yeah, we mention the constitution, just for this reason.
      Actually, this may just be, and cause, a major problem here in Pa., as they just conjured up some new mandates. Really, I'm to keep my mask on in my  own home?...AND stay 6 feet away?.....and you're for that?.....and you talk about common sense!?.....you talk about ..logic!?........and then poo poo a constitution!..........insanity!
      Yep, the media, politicians, scientists, logic, common sense all on its own agenda lists....both sides.....
at least a few of us admit that deciphering the truth is not easy.

BTW...my girlfriend just handed me my dinner and she didn't wash her hands or wear a mask.....You can call Dr. Levine or our Gov. Wolf and turn us in ' cause that's what it's coming down to....

     

[carnivorous chicken]

Jesus H, so you exist in an alternate universe as well. Let me help you a little.

https://www.pa.gov/guides/responding-to-covid-19/

Here is the latest Pennsylvania Covid guide, updated today, four hours ago. Contrary to what you wrote, it doesn't state that you should wear a mask in your car, or outside taking a walk in a park -- unless you are going to be within 6 feet of other people. It doesn't say you have to wear a mask inside your house -- unless there are people who aren't part of that household present. Do you honestly think that they are telling you that you have to wear a mask in your own house all the time? As for your girlfriend not washing her hands, that's your deal -- I just hope for your sake she washes her hands after she goes to the bathroom.

None of you guys have come up with anything remotely resembling factual from a reliable source that contradicts anything I've written. Rather, it's just made up sh1t that eventually boils down to what you view as your rights as laid out in the Constitution. Genius.

How do I know the US is doing poorly with its Covid response? Wait, you think the US is doing great? A quarter of the world's cases with 1/20 of the population. The highest number of infections and the highest number of dead out of any country in the world, including India with a population almost four times the US. The US has lost .07% of it's population, 100 times more than Cal tried to state. Here are some comparisons:

For a comparative perspective, here are mortality figures as a percentage of population:
Japan: .0014%
Germany: .014%
Singapore: .0005%
UK: .007%
Canada: .028%
And everybody’s favorite, New Zealand: .00006%

Go to the WHO site, the info is all there. Or take this tack, and quote Lebowski, "Yeah, but that's just like your opinion man." Back up your assertion. Show how the US is doing great.

The moon is made of cheese, and the earth is flat.

I'm aware I'm the only one stupid enough to engage with you guys, and it's kind of entertaining (and informative), but I imagine most people here are just shaking their heads, Americans and others alike.

[754]

Goodtryer  posted info in #113
 To the effect of ....mask are not being effective if people don't ALSO practice social distancing and or  are taking their mask off the speak while NOT distancing.
 That seems to go against what you have been saying a lot of the time.

[Ichiban 4]

Hi again Everyone..

It baffles me how this discussion continues about how bad (or not) the effects of Covid are/have been.  It's bad if you contract it yourself (and have comorbidity's). But if reasonable precautions are taken..that's what we should all be most concerned about..I suggest. And then the 'boogy man' aspect ceases to be a primary concern.

I suspect that most who have been most worried about 'how bad Covid is' are under 50 here..and have not served in the military. And certainly have not experienced what it means to 'mitigate risks' in order to get-on with what's important in life.  We all ride bikes folks. How many of us will give that up..because there's a higher risk of getting injured (compared to driving 4-wheeled vehicles..et al.).

I've hesitated to call-out carnivorous chicken before here..but have to say here brother that it has seemed to me that you relish in stoking alarm about 'how bad' the situation with Covid actually is. From a medical and statistical point of view..I have to say that your concerns are at best..heavily confirmation biased to see the worst in the Covid situation. I give you full-rein to express your limited views and concerns as an individual however (as I would to any patient).

We WILL get through this folks.  Probably later than many of us had wished..but we will get though this stupid Covid situation and accompanying hysteria. Check out the current state of vaccine development..which is in the news currently.

Best wishes and please just keep hanging in there for a while longer Folks.

Ichi

[bear]

I imagine most people here are just shaking their heads, Americans and others alike.

Yep.

[carnivorous chicken]

Goodtryer  pisted info in #113

Did you actually look at it though? Or read #114? It's BS.

[carnivorous chicken]

I've hesitated to call-out carnivorous chicken before here..but have to say here brother that it has seemed to me that you relish in stoking alarm about 'how bad' the situation with Covid actually is. From a medical and statistical point of view..I have to say that your concerns are at best..heavily confirmation biased to see the worst in the Covid situation. I give you full-rein to express your limited views and concerns as an individual however (as I would to any patient).

First, do you believe that 243,000 Americans have died from Covid, and 11.3 million have been infected? Second, I'm not your "patient" but I appreciate you "giving me full rein" to express my opinon -- uh, thanks? Should I give you my permission too? -- but do you believe in the medical consensus regarding Covid, including the recommendations from the CDC, WHO, and major American medical associations? I mean, this is the heart of the matter, isn't it?

But stoking alarm? It's not at all what I'm doing. I'm not stoking alarm, I'm trying to get people to realize that it's serious and that taking minor precautions can go a long way toward reducing the death toll -- these people are arguing it's their constitutional right not to wear a mask and that people dying and becoming incapacitated are simply collateral damage so they're not inconvenienced. Or that the scientists are in on some conspiracy to control the population (if I am getting that right).

Again, objectively and comparatively speaking, the US is doing terribly. There are a quarter of a million people dead and the number keeps getting higher. Minimizing this, downplaying the ease of taking precautions, citing utter and compete BS as "fact" -- none of this helps. Look at the other countries and comapre for yourself. 

It's not hysteria, it's common sense. Most of the rest of the developed world gets it because it's not that hard -- even countries with their own constitutions that guarantee rights similar to the US (but that don't have explicit clauses stating that you can't be forced to wear a mask in a global pandemic even if it kills milions of people). Christ, I hope none of you guys wear seat belts or helmets. Isn't that the same? Or worse -- since that's the government trying to protect just you and not other people? Help me understand this, please.

[Medyo Bastos]

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[scottly]

Arizona was one of the worst states for infections and deaths last summer, and the infection rates are going up now, approaching the same numbers. The weekly positivity rate is currently 11%, and is 20% in Yavapai County, up from 8%, following a small "Super Spreader" event on 10-19, where many were not wearing masks while in close proximity.
Masks have been shown to reduce spread by 50%. Distancing reduces the spread even more. Outside is better than inside. Don't pick your nose.

[carnivorous chicken]

I suspect that most who have been most worried about 'how bad Covid is' are under 50 here..and have not served in the military. And certainly have not experienced what it means to 'mitigate risks' in order to get-on with what's important in life.  We all ride bikes folks. How many of us will give that up..because there's a higher risk of getting injured (compared to driving 4-wheeled vehicles..et al.).

I don't think this is right, Ichi. I don't fit it, and I know that others who are against wearing masks don't fit it either. Rather, much of it has to do with personal p_____cs, although the anti-vaxxers who are anti-maskers don't fit the bill. Studies can likely prove or disprove this (or already have). Most of the elderly people I know, including relatives for example, are being very precautious because they are the ones most at risk of dying. Most of the people I see who don't seem to care are young people -- go back to spring break, summertime beach parties, and bars -- which are the second most serious place for spreading after enclosed restaurants. Military service doesn't have much to do with it either, I suspect. But again, maybe someone will do a more thorough analysis.

[scottly]

I imagine most people here are just shaking their heads, Americans and others alike.

Yep.

I believe the proper term in your lingo is "gobsmacked"?

[jlh3rd]

Jesus H, so you exist in an alternate universe as well. Let me help you a little.

https://www.pa.gov/guides/responding-to-covid-19/

Here is the latest Pennsylvania Covid guide, updated today, four hours ago. Contrary to what you wrote, it doesn't state that you should wear a mask in your car, or outside taking a walk in a park -- unless you are going to be within 6 feet of other people. It doesn't say you have to wear a mask inside your house -- unless there are people who aren't part of that household present. Do you honestly think that they are telling you that you have to wear a mask in your own house all the time? As for your girlfriend not washing her hands, that's your deal -- I just hope for your sake she washes her hands after she goes to the bathroom.

None of you guys have come up with anything remotely resembling factual from a reliable source that contradicts anything I've written. Rather, it's just made up sh1t that eventually boils down to what you view as your rights as laid out in the Constitution. Genius.

How do I know the US is doing poorly with its Covid response? Wait, you think the US is doing great? A quarter of the world's cases with 1/20 of the population. The highest number of infections and the highest number of dead out of any country in the world, including India with a population almost four times the US. The US has lost .07% of it's population, 100 times more than Cal tried to state. Here are some comparisons:

For a comparative perspective, here are mortality figures as a percentage of population:
Japan: .0014%
Germany: .014%
Singapore: .0005%
UK: .007%
Canada: .028%
And everybody’s favorite, New Zealand: .00006%

Go to the WHO site, the info is all there. Or take this tack, and quote Lebowski, "Yeah, but that's just like your opinion man." Back up your assertion. Show how the US is doing great.

The moon is made of cheese, and the earth is flat.

I'm aware I'm the only one stupid enough to engage with you guys, and it's kind of entertaining (and informative), but I imagine most people here are just shaking their heads, Americans and others alike.

THIS is the universe I live in.....If you find contradictory news , then blame it on the news!....That's the point I/we make about news sources .......
      Enforcement is another question, but the lunacy is there.

furthermore, we were both sitting here watching ABC 27 news ( local) before dinner and the newscaster made the comment about thanksgiving, masks, and distancing indoors, yeah, we laughed.....but there it is.......yeah, i know, anecdotal so it doesn't count.

[jlh3rd]

and ...just sitting here now listening to WHP580, Brett Delone, now VP of Medical Affairs, Holy Spirit hospital ( our go to guy) who just said......and this'll make you happy CC.........he's basically supports the in house , household gathering mask wearing.
     Just being honest......but, no, not doing it.......
part of my universe though...

[jlh3rd]

and furthermore again, CC, since you think I live in lala land....And for those that don't know, this is Dr. Levine, the Pa. Sec. of Health, peeking through the window. No, I didn't generate the pic, someone else did when the thanksgiving comments were made public.