Author Topic: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)  (Read 1147 times)

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Offline Redtail

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So on the 19th, I was finally confident enough with my bike to take it to work. Ran great on the way out, and on the way home it developed what I presume to be a fuel delivery issue.
Symptoms are as follows:

1. Revving unloaded now creates occasional breakup and popping both on and off throttle.
2. Bike accelerates very nicely for a few seconds on the road, then very suddenly cuts out and loses quite a lot of power, pops and backfires.
3. Condition 1 occurs right from startup and condition 2 occurs very suddenly while riding.
4. Condition 2 can be temporarily alleviated by backing off throttle, and alleviated a bit more aggressively by shutting it down. It does not appear to be related to a jet because it's not so much related to throttle position as it is to fuel consumption. For example, running at WOT will make it happen sooner than at 1/2, but it happens under both conditions.
5. At about 1/4 to 1/3 throttle it can be nursed along without any loss of power, and in fact runs very smoothly like this.
6. No changes were made during the day the issue occurred to cause it to happen.

This makes me think that for some reason, the float bowls are not filling. I'm not sure if this is a condition in all carbs or just one or two of them, but I'm leaning toward all of them.
So here's a rundown of what I've done so far.

1. #$%*load of Seafoam and Italian tuneup. Result - No change.
2. Inspect timing. Set nearly perfectly. No change made.
3. Inspect tank. In-tank filter damaged and tank inundated with rust. Soaked tank in citric acid for 24 hours, neutralized, dried, and fogged. Disassembled and cleaned petcock and filter. Result - No change. Ordered replacement petcock w/strainer preemptively.
4. Remove and rebuild carbs. They were pretty full of rust sludge, so I was certain this was going to be my issue. Replaced all O-rings and bottom end seals. Soaked all small components in carb cleaner for about 6 hours and scrubbed clean. Sprayed, scrubbed, then sprayed carbs again to try to purge all fuel circuits of contaminants. Replaced any internal components (brass metering tubes, jets, etc) that seemed corroded or excessively oxidized. Did not soak carbs because I didn't want to damage seals that are not generally replaceable. Replaced boots in intake runners as well as O-rings sealing runners to heads.  Result - No change.

Am I missing anything?

THe bike is mostly stock. Stock airbox with an aging filter, Delkevic 4-into-1 exhaust with baffles intact. Rebuilt the ignition system with fresh points and condensers, replaced all screws, and set timing. Valve lash set about a month ago. Warmed the bike up and did a precise sync earlier in the week after reinstalling the carbs. Running right now on fresh 93 octane with a full can of Seafoam in the tank. I've run it like this before without any issues.

Has anyone had this issue before? What was your issue and how did you fix it?
'75 CB550K restomod/sport touring build

Offline Scott S

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2021, 05:48:48 pm »
 Holy crap.... a full can of Seafoam in 2.5 gallons of gas?
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Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2021, 06:22:49 pm »
4 gallons of gas actually, but yes. I am aware that a full can of seafoam is intended to treat approximately four times that much fuel and that this clearly constitutes a case of product not used as intended.

This is not normal operating circumstances, this is "I'm trying to clean this mofo out and I want it done *yesterday*".

I have also done this in the past in order to remove residue from the previous owner who left it to sit with about 3/4 of a tank of 87 in it for roughly 2-1/2 years, and was very pleased with the results.

I also want to make it clear that in the past, using this much Seafoam has never significantly affected performance, and that the current issue happened before I attempted to force my bike to gargle an entire can of the stuff to hawk up whatever lung butter is affecting her right now.
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Offline seanbarney41

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2021, 08:09:10 pm »
fuel cap vent?  float bowl vents?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #4 on: July 31, 2021, 10:07:14 pm »
I usually review/correct all tune up items whenever the bike changes behavior.

Look at the spark plug tips to determine combustion conditions. (A sooty center electrode insulator will shunt away spark energy).  A fuel starvation issue will show very clean spark plugs.  A clogged air filter can soot up plugs.

Turn off fuel tap and drain each carb bowl in turn a measure content volume.  The first bowl drained can be higher volume due to what is stored in the lines.  The rest should be equal. Note the volume.  Turn gas on again then off and begin the drain with a different carb.  Then go to the one you started with on the first test and measure it’s volume.

Or,  do a clear tube test on each carb to determine fuel level each  one maintains.

If you have Diachi points and condensers, replace them with TEC brand.

Check your battery voltage, as low voltage can make ignition erratic to nonexistent.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline PeWe

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2021, 12:32:15 am »
Sudden backfires sounds as ignition fot me.
I have had some of that when wires to coils have bad contact. 12V and wires from points/electronic ign to coils.
Only engine that work bad then? Ign switch might be worn causing intermittent 12V off. Or kill switch....

If using Dynatec coils, the leads to plugs can glide out of the coil connections giving intermittent function with heart scaring bangs.
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Offline ekpent

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2021, 06:28:31 am »
 On a 550 I owned and worked on it would run pretty good without the air filter but as soon as I would pop in the old dirty worn out what was probably stock 40+ year old thing in it would run like crap. Probably like trying to run it with a choke on. Easy to pull it out for a run. Also on those 550 carbs when doing a proper cleaning you really need to de-rack them and push those emulsifier tubes out and clean them also. Some people report problems with external fuel filters,not sure if your running those.  Hopefully something simple for you though.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 06:31:09 am by ekpent »

Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2021, 07:44:24 am »
Fuel cap is venting well, float bowl vents are clear.

At warm idle, plugs are on the rich side of OK. Ran the bike under what feels like lean condition for approximately 20 seconds (to the utter delight of my neighbors) and cut ignition. When I took the plugs out they were golden brown with very clean insulators, in line with TwoTired's statement regarding fuel starvation. I'm inclined to believe that's what the problem is here but I'm trying to take the approach of examining all possible causes rather than picking what I think the problem is and fixating on finding evidence to support that.

Will try to find a solution to measure fuel volume in each float bowl fairly precisely as I do not have the means to attach a clear tube to the float bowl drain other than just jamming the tube into the hole and hoping it seals. If that's generally considered a good way to do this, then maybe I'll run to Farm & Fleet for some vinyl tubing.

Unaware of what brand my points and condensers are. I replaced them shortly after I got the bike because the previous owner said that he was unable to adjust them due to having stripped every last screw under the timing cover. Extracted them all and replaced them with Allen head bolts and replaced the points and condensers with the ignition service kit from 4into1 which did not provide a brand name. It wasn't expensive, so I'm not going to be heartbroken if I have to replace it.

PO said that the bike was known to have a weak charging system, and for most of my early testing I was riding around town and spending a lot of time below 3,500RPM where the charging system begins to function. It was only recently that I started doing longer rides up around 5-6000RPM for any significant length of time. However, the issue materialized after that. In fact, it happened while I was on the expressway. The only thing I know of that can create a sudden low voltage situation under those circumstances without a relatively immediate total failure, is bad connections. I will check voltage, but I will also and clean the terminals as I expect battery voltage to be in a normal range.

The fact that the bike pulls like a rocket ship at WOT for a good few seconds before the issue occurs suggests this is probably not an ignition issue, compounded by the fact that the next time I try, the time before it occurs seems to directly correlate with how gently I treat the bike in between sprints. If I let it idle or even shut it off and let it sit for a moment, then it's good for a lot longer. If I back off, coast for a few seconds, then crack the throttle again immediately, it hits the lean condition a lot quicker. My experience working on antique Pontiacs tells me that an intermittent electrical problem would be far more random, or potentially tied to heat levels or sudden mechanical shock such as hitting a pothole.

As far as the air filter, I think that is going the opposite direction. It seems to be getting too little fuel, rather than too little air. The filter appears to be a UNI foam filter that has seen better days, as the foam seal that pinches against the airbox is falling off. I thought about just making a fresh one out of some thin closed cell foam or Neoprene and attaching it with RTV. Might end up costing more than a new filter to go that route, but if it keeps me from having to replace it again in the future, it might be worth it. The UNI filters are supposed to be lifetime filters, you just wash them and oil them at regular intervals.

I am not using external filters, just what's left of the one in the tank. I have a fresh petcock/filter on order because the filter screen on this one is in bad shape.

Regarding the emulsifier tube: I probably should have cleaned those individually too, yes, but that doesn't appear to be related to this issue. The purpose of the emulsifier tube is to pre-atomize fuel as it's coming up out of the float bowl under vacuum, and if that were failing I imagine you'd see overall poor power delivery rather than *awesome* power at WOT for a few seconds and then an immediate change.



Here's a thought.
I have the petcock with the bag style filter over the top right now. The filter is in bad shape. It's torn in a bunch of places. Is it likely that I'm just seeing poor fuel flow from that due to the filter media getting pulled over the pickup tubes? I've got a new petcock on the way anyway because I want an intact filter regardless.
'75 CB550K restomod/sport touring build

Offline Deltarider

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2021, 09:51:16 am »
Will try to find a solution to measure fuel volume in each float bowl fairly precisely as I do not have the means to attach a clear tube to the float bowl drain other than just jamming the tube into the hole and hoping it seals.
Here's a proven method that can also be used on your model. http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,185754.msg2151647.html#msg2151647
Another thing. If you have extra inline fuelfilters, abandon them. They can cause problems with fuel delivery on the CB500/550s. Also see to it the fuel lines have the right dimensions and are routed correctly. The correct dimensions are: for the CB500 and CB550Ks: 18 and 30 cm length for the models with the bowltype petcock and 17 and 28 cm for models like the CB500K2 GENERAL EXPORT and the CB550K2 that have the newer style petcock. Do not be tempted to have them even one cm longer. For the tube that supplies carbs 3+4, use the soft metal clamp in the middle front side as shown in the pic (btw, horizontal is good enough) for proper routing. Ideal inside ⌀ of the fuel lines is 5,5 mm. Outside ⌀ will be around 9-10mm. Have this and the lines will not kink. As said: abstain from extra inline filters. Some have been lucky with them, but my experience is that they can't be trusted. Often it isn't that filter itself, but the rerouting of the fuel line that - sometimes intermittent - impedes a proper delivery of the gas.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 09:58:47 am by Deltarider »
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Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2021, 09:55:02 am »
Thank you, but I think I've mentioned at least twice that I'm not using inline filters.

I will definitely check the lines, as I know for a fact one of them seemed too long and I trimmed the other due to some cracking at the top where the hose meets the petcock. I don't see how that makes a huge amount of difference, but I'm also used to working on larger platforms with mechanical pumps, so my perspective is limited.
« Last Edit: August 01, 2021, 10:02:48 am by Redtail »
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2021, 10:01:39 am »
Thank you, but I think I've mentioned at least twice that I'm not using inline filters.
Please accept my humble apologies. In this forum it is not uncommon to give complete information that also others than the OP can benefit from.
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Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2021, 10:06:50 am »
Please accept my humble apologies. In this forum it is not uncommon to give complete information that also others than the OP can benefit from.

And that's understandable, but I'm sure you can also understand that it's a bit disorienting to receive instructions that appear to be coming from someone who didn't read a full description of the problem or the circumstances.
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Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2021, 07:17:50 pm »
If anyone is still interested, apparently the set of points I got to replace the ones that were all of 11 days old when the issue started, were defective in exactly the same way that the *first* new set had gone bad.

I dropped in a Dyna S ignition module *purely* out of spite (so that each time someone told me to check my points and condensers again, I could simply shuffle them on and say "I don't have points or condensers, NEXT") and the problem magically went away.

I don't know whether to be elated or infuriated.

In my defense, I'm not aware of any other product where that kind of DOA/failure rate is just accepted.
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Offline gpzkat

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2021, 08:40:10 pm »
That's frustrating but another problem solved at least. I just had two bikes brought to their knees by a 5 gallon can of gas I brought home from the Shell station.  Took carbs off the Honda and everything, then it dawned on me the only thing in common was the fuel.

My '73 is running points/condensers and they work so I'm not fixing what ain't broke... so far.  My two Suzuki GSs have Dyna S.  Next I have to decide on an ignition upgrade for my '66 Norton, as rebuilding the Lucas magneto is very costly and modern stuff 'should' work better and be around the same price.

If anyone is still interested, apparently the set of points I got to replace the ones that were all of 11 days old when the issue started, were defective in exactly the same way that the *first* new set had gone bad.

I dropped in a Dyna S ignition module *purely* out of spite (so that each time someone told me to check my points and condensers again, I could simply shuffle them on and say "I don't have points or condensers, NEXT") and the problem magically went away.

I don't know whether to be elated or infuriated.

In my defense, I'm not aware of any other product where that kind of DOA/failure rate is just accepted.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2021, 10:49:29 pm »
Diachi has a serious problem with a Chinese points maker who is producing junk product and passing it off as Diachi Japan product. It is so bad you cannot trust them. The condenser are known failure points and the market is awash with these junk parts. So, if you are angry with us for advising you about the points and they were pretty much any brand other than TEC, then we aren't to be blamed for that.
I am glad you have it working well now. Hopefully you are in using 5 ohm coils as the lower resistance ones have caused issues for many owners who tried to use them.
Enjoy the bike now you have figured out the teething issues with bad parts.

We don't accept the failure rate for these junk parts, the distributors and sellers are left with little recourse on cheap parts and the frauds running the knockoff racket are not going to stand behind their knock offs.  NGK is having issues with counterfeit spark plugs too...fwiw. A lot of counterfeit parts coming out of China every day.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2021, 10:53:14 pm by RAFster122s »
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Offline Redtail

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #15 on: August 31, 2021, 04:22:18 am »
So, if you are angry with us for advising you about the points and they were pretty much any brand other than TEC, then we aren't to be blamed for that.

Well, I wasn't, but I gotta admit I'm weirded-out and even a little annoyed at how defensive some people are getting at totally innocuous statements meant to elicit commiseration over presumably shared frustration. 
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Offline kerryb

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Re: Help me solve a possible fuel delivery issue. (1975 CB550K)
« Reply #16 on: September 01, 2021, 06:15:23 am »
Thank you!  For the time and effort it took to tell the story of this issue and it's solution.  We are trying to solve what may be the same problem, with similar symptoms.  Your story may just be the playbook to solving the issues on another cb550.

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