Topic: Bonneville Bound

[richmagee7]

Haha Scotty, 

Yes, "we can never know about the days to come but we think about them anyway".  I probably dreamt gearing, jetting, rain, etc. last week.  Like Bombermann said, conditions were wild but we did manage to get some racing in.  Home Saturday night, unpack mostly Sunday, prep for Labor Day get together with fam today.  recap soon if anyone cares, or even if they dont care, got some gopro vid to download also

Have a good Labor Day everyone,
Rich

[Don R]

 Those of us that don't go but think maybe someday are hoping to hear about it.

[denward17]

Would love to hear about the experience, being on the east coast will probably never get a chance to experience this.

[Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er]

Looking forward to you taking there this year Rich

[Stev-o]

  recap soon if anyone cares....

Yes, we care!

[richmagee7]

Okay then,
This year I had installed Dresda500's close ratio fifth gear in the trans and brought a wider range of sprockets since all runs last year were in 4th gear, wouldn't pull fifth.  Best run last year was 123.7 with a tiny $49 fairing which I don't think really affects much, could be wrong.

Run #1, overheated bike idling at start, turned out. Dennis helped me get back to pits and I changed plugs.

Run #2, Ran 117 into 11mph headwind.  Hit 12k easy in 2nd, 3rd with 17-36 gears, made it to 11k in 4th, shifted to fifth.  Rpms dropped to 10k but it did pull up to about 10.5 or 10.7.   Rained Sunday night, no racing Monday.  They did escort us out to the pits at noon to pick up our stuff.  I had left bike and parts so I picked them up and worked on bike in my van at hotel.  I thought maybe I had gone too far with the gearing so I switched sprockets from 17-36 to 18-37. 

Run #3 ,Tuesday now, with the 18-37 sprockets, rpms and shifts about the same.  Ran 118mph with slight tailwind.  Since 5th is still pulling, I changed from the 18-37 to 18-36 sprockets.   But winds really picked up and either racing was on hold or I didn't see the point, I forget.  Took the wife back to the casinos early.  A lot more spectators than usual this year, all of whom my wife invited to sit in our pit, I appreciate her support but she must get tired sitting there.  Least amount of competitors I've ever seen, just over 100, so wait times were not bad at the start.

Wednesday, runs 4, 5, 6. A little rain last night has International (long) track closed while they try working on it.  The volunteers (like Bombermann) and organisers really bust their humps all week keeping trying to work on track conditions and safety as mother nature throws crap at us.

Run #4, my plugs looked almost unused, went to colder D8 plug along with the 18-36 sprockets.  RPMs and shifts stay about the same, slight tailwind, ran 119.9mph.

Run #5, went from 100 to 102 jets, probably should have gone further.  RPMs and shifts still same, 120.9 with slight tailwind.
Run #6, figured I would try the 18-34 sprockets, this time it did not gain as much RPM, 4th gear only pulled to 10.5k, fifth gear dropped to 9k but pulled back to 9.5k.  Run was 117mph.

Told the wife I was done, I did not know what to do to make this bike go 128mph, the record I was chasing.  Or maybe this bike just won't go that fast.  It seemed interesting that for most of the various gearing changes, the bike would only pull 11k in 4th and 10.5k in 5th. 

Some pics in next post.

Rich

[richmagee7]

There were so many cool bikes but for some reason I did not get pics.  Some pics I did take.  The obligatory signs, Salt Flats and Wendover Will, heading out to the pits very early Tuesday.  Pits are usually about 5-6 miles from where the pavement ends at the Bonneville sign.

[richmagee7]

Did I mention that the start is 2-3 miles from the pits.  And a coil wire fell off my bike about 2/3 of the way to the start.  Here is a lonely bike in the middle of nowhere waiting for pickup.  A shot of two sweet bikes, Isaac Siegel's Honda 100 sporting nitrous, and his buddy David Harto's Cushman scooter that once belonged to his grandfather, both works for art when seen up close.  And racing's biggest fan posing by my pit.

[richmagee7]

And I hope this link works to my youtube.  This is run #5, the fastest, I couldn't figure out the editing but the actual run is from about 1:30 to 2:50.  Then back to the pits.  I always head to impound just in case, but my timekeeper is there to say 'nope'.

[denward17]

Video worked.....wow, what a thrill that must have been...Thanks for sharing.

[BomberMann650]

Rich, you're still faster than the turbo bike!

18/37 is a lot of gear for these little motors.  You even have more wheel circumference than I do!
Simon thought an extra mile of track would help out.  I kept trying to force top gear in the time mile to no avail.  Gotta let fourth build up steam.

[scottly]

It seemed interesting that for most of the various gearing changes, the bike would only pull 11k in 4th and 10.5k in 5th. 


Rich

The Great White Dyno is telling you the peak horsepower RPM of your motor is 10.5k. You might have been able to pick up a little more speed with an 18/35 combo??

[willbird]

Okay then,
This year I had installed Dresda500's close ratio fifth gear in the trans and brought a wider range of sprockets since all runs last year were in 4th gear, wouldn't pull fifth.  Best run last year was 123.7 with a tiny $49 fairing which I don't think really affects much, could be wrong.

Run #1, overheated bike idling at start, turned out. Dennis helped me get back to pits and I changed plugs.

Run #2, Ran 117 into 11mph headwind.  Hit 12k easy in 2nd, 3rd with 17-36 gears, made it to 11k in 4th, shifted to fifth.  Rpms dropped to 10k but it did pull up to about 10.5 or 10.7.   Rained Sunday night, no racing Monday.  They did escort us out to the pits at noon to pick up our stuff.  I had left bike and parts so I picked them up and worked on bike in my van at hotel.  I thought maybe I had gone too far with the gearing so I switched sprockets from 17-36 to 18-37. 

Run #3 ,Tuesday now, with the 18-37 sprockets, rpms and shifts about the same.  Ran 118mph with slight tailwind.  Since 5th is still pulling, I changed from the 18-37 to 18-36 sprockets.   But winds really picked up and either racing was on hold or I didn't see the point, I forget.  Took the wife back to the casinos early.  A lot more spectators than usual this year, all of whom my wife invited to sit in our pit, I appreciate her support but she must get tired sitting there.  Least amount of competitors I've ever seen, just over 100, so wait times were not bad at the start.

Wednesday, runs 4, 5, 6. A little rain last night has International (long) track closed while they try working on it.  The volunteers (like Bombermann) and organisers really bust their humps all week keeping trying to work on track conditions and safety as mother nature throws crap at us.

Run #4, my plugs looked almost unused, went to colder D8 plug along with the 18-36 sprockets.  RPMs and shifts stay about the same, slight tailwind, ran 119.9mph.

Run #5, went from 100 to 102 jets, probably should have gone further.  RPMs and shifts still same, 120.9 with slight tailwind.
Run #6, figured I would try the 18-34 sprockets, this time it did not gain as much RPM, 4th gear only pulled to 10.5k, fifth gear dropped to 9k but pulled back to 9.5k.  Run was 117mph.

Told the wife I was done, I did not know what to do to make this bike go 128mph, the record I was chasing.  Or maybe this bike just won't go that fast.  It seemed interesting that for most of the various gearing changes, the bike would only pull 11k in 4th and 10.5k in 5th. 

Some pics in next post.

Rich

I have a half hour drive time to and from work so I have a couple ideas that I use that spare time to think about sometimes, the ideas just round robin around and some maybe my subconscious works on too as a background task.

One of those ideas is how to rig up a motorcycle engine so that we can get a strain gauge reading of torque while we are riding the bike. Actually baby steps is to do it on a test stand first. But that would let one actually log actual engine torque for the entire run. All of the environmental stuff goes away then in some ways, it would let you just tune the bike to that metric...and there is some luck involved in what the headwind is when you qualify and then back up the run the next day. All the other stuff "matters" but isolating actual engine torque in the run IMHO would be a help.

Each engine design maybe mounts up differently so that plays into whether or not is is even possible. For good (and easy) numbers the engine would need to be able to rotate around the centerline of output shaft enough for the strain gauge to measure how much torque the engine is developing. It does not really need a lot of rotary movement and the strain gauge could be backed up by mechanical hard stops.

I know some of the classes do not allow any engine data logging, some of them you can run a wideband and could record it with gopro...but not allowed to directly log.


Bill

[richmagee7]

Will,
Would the same info be obtained on a dyno?  I don't know of any restrictions on data logging at this event.

Bombermann,
I was wondering if I should 'cheat' and use a longer course, but it always seemed I topped out at 11k in 4th and 10.5k in fifth, not sure if running longer would advance it any.  Maybe I can shift later into 3rd and 4th, hitting 12k now, my electronic tach only goes to 12k, so I feel uncomfortable past that.  Not sure how far the revs should go.  Original redline started at 9500.

Rich

[scottly]

Will,
Would the same info be obtained on a dyno?

That's what the dyno is for. It measures torque at the rear wheel and engine RPM to calculate HP: Torque times RPM divided by 5252 equals HP. It also measures the atmospheric conditions to determine a correction factor, which is used to convert the measured HP to what it would be at sea level.
In this example, the HP peak is about 8.5K, and the HP starts to drop off above that, which is why I ended the run where I did. This was done at about 4500' elevation, which is reflected by the barometer reading of 25.xx inches of mercury, 4 points lower than at sea level. The lower air pressure is responsible for most of the correction factor of 1.16-1.18, with the temperature and humidity having less effect. The tallest gearing that will allow the engine to reach the HP peak should result in the highest MPH.

[BomberMann650]

Its only vintage and production classes that have strict controls on added tech.
A modified classic can add on whatever they please.

[willbird]

Will,
Would the same info be obtained on a dyno?  I don't know of any restrictions on data logging at this event.



Rich

The Dyno would provide information yes. But not as much as real time data when it comes to tuning to the exact conditions. That is where the newer ECU really shine that will auto correct in closed loop making 3500hp at 50+ lbs of boost for one example, but that is a different world than we are talking here ?? The wideband if you are using one tells you a lot though.

Bill

[willbird]

Its only vintage and production classes that have strict controls on added tech.
A modified classic can add on whatever they please.

Yea I knew there were ins and outs beyond what I picked up from Tom Bailey's videos.

[scottly]

The Dyno would provide information yes. But not as much as real time data when it comes to tuning to the exact conditions. That is where the newer ECU really shine that will auto correct in closed loop making 3500hp at 50+ lbs of boost for one example, but that is a different world than we are talking here ??
Bill

Yes, it's a completely different world, and any real-time data won't tell you what the HP peak RPM is for any particular engine the way a dyno will. The peak is determined by things like cam timing, exhaust length, intake length, cylinder head flow, and how well they work in concert. The inertial dyno places a constant load on the engine, but the wind resistance increases as the square of the speed, so the load increases dramatically as the speed increases even slightly. Rich had to find the peak by trial and error.

[BomberMann650]

Its only vintage and production classes that have strict controls on added tech.
A modified classic can add on whatever they please.

Yea I knew there were ins and outs beyond what I picked up from Tom Bailey's videos.

There are essential differences between the bonneville club races and the ama/fim event. (i.e Bub)

I really should spend some time making a presentation for the bmst rules.  Getting it viewed and taken seriously however *shrug*

[willbird]

The Dyno would provide information yes. But not as much as real time data when it comes to tuning to the exact conditions. That is where the newer ECU really shine that will auto correct in closed loop making 3500hp at 50+ lbs of boost for one example, but that is a different world than we are talking here ??
Bill

Yes, it's a completely different world, and any real-time data won't tell you what the HP peak RPM is for any particular engine the way a dyno will. The peak is determined by things like cam timing, exhaust length, intake length, cylinder head flow, and how well they work in concert. The inertial dyno places a constant load on the engine, but the wind resistance increases as the square of the speed, so the load increases dramatically as the speed increases even slightly. Rich had to find the peak by trial and error.

I think there is some room for development work of something useful to at least get stuff dialed in enough to make limited dyno avail around where I live better focused. If I can supply a load and log torque and rpm plus fuel air to me that provides a lot of useful data and allows A to B tests. The day to day environment as far as barometric pressure, temp, and humidity play into it so to split hairs everything does needs to be A to B on same day. I dunno how many dyno guys these days relish bikes with carbs and 60 year old ignitions LOL.

Bill

[scottly]

I dunno how many dyno guys these days relish bikes with carbs and 60 year old ignitions LOL.

Bill

By the way, there is a load cell built into a car driveshaft on the market, but IIRC it costs about $3.5K??

[willbird]

I dunno how many dyno guys these days relish bikes with carbs and 60 year old ignitions LOL.

Bill

By the way, there is a load cell built into a car driveshaft on the market, but IIRC it costs about $3.5K??

That is peanuts for those 75+ psi of boost fellows LOL.

Bill

[BomberMann650]

I dunno how many dyno guys these days relish bikes with carbs and 60 year old ignitions LOL.

Bill

By the way, there is a load cell built into a car driveshaft on the market, but IIRC it costs about $3.5K??

Putting our boy on blast now? Haha

He's a good one