Author Topic: K4 550 Valvetrain restore  (Read 1241 times)

0 Members and 4 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline exponent

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Obsessed
K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« on: February 03, 2022, 09:31:11 AM »
So end of last season exhaust was smoking and I knew it was time to do a valve job.
I have removed the head and extracted half of the valves to start with grinding away carbon and soot. As I'm doing this I'm wondering what to restore and what to replace in order to have the most reliable setup as possible.
The valves themselves were caked with carbon and are taking hours to return to bare metal with scotchbrite and 120 grit paper. The top of the chamber is also very dirty and needed scrubbing. Stems and guides look ok but I'm not sure what will pass the test and is in spec. I also believe this is the first valve job my bike has ever had.
My questions are, which valve guide parts need replacing? Should I replace the valves outright with K&L? Will I go insane without using our walnut blaster? Should I replace springs? Which compounds are best for restoring to metal and for lapping?
My goal is simple reliability and cleanliness, thanks for any info.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2022, 09:36:55 AM by exponent »
'78 550K 2106630

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,566
  • Big ideas....
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2022, 10:33:58 AM »
 Replace the valves, springs and seals. The guides should be checked...it's a coin toss whether or not they are OK. Do the valve job as well. Just to clarify....you cannot grind the valves faces....you have to replace them. I have personally seen 550 and 750 ground valves and they are completely hammered out in less than 1,000 miles. Hammered as in the margin is reduced to a knife edge. If you replace the valves replace the threaded adjusters too. Old, pitted adjusters will ruin the stem tip in no time.
 Have the head bead blasted or vapor blasted.....it's well worth the expense.




















 
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Tracksnblades1

  • My Son was a collegiate competition Trap, Skeet, and sporting Clay
  • Master
  • *****
  • Posts: 1,860
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2022, 10:46:24 AM »
Exponent,
Have you determined the source of
Your exhaust smoke ?
Age Quod Agis

Offline exponent

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Obsessed
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2022, 12:14:31 PM »
Replace the valves, springs and seals. The guides should be checked...it's a coin toss whether or not they are OK. Do the valve job as well. Just to clarify....you cannot grind the valves faces....you have to replace them. I have personally seen 550 and 750 ground valves and they are completely hammered out in less than 1,000 miles. Hammered as in the margin is reduced to a knife edge. If you replace the valves replace the threaded adjusters too. Old, pitted adjusters will ruin the stem tip in no time.
 Have the head bead blasted or vapor blasted.....it's well worth the expense.

Understood. What's the best way to check the guides? And can I blast with the guides in? I know removing and replacing them is considerably more difficult
'78 550K 2106630

Offline Deltarider

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 8,132
  • ... but some animals are more equal than others.
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2022, 12:21:09 PM »
Exponent,
Have you determined the source of
Your exhaust smoke ?
+1
CB500K2-ED Excel black
"There is enough for everyone's need but not enough for anybody's greed."

Offline exponent

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 116
  • Obsessed
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2022, 12:34:34 PM »
Exponent,
Have you determined the source of
Your exhaust smoke ?

This is less troubleshooting and more of a head rebuild/clean thread. I'll see what happens after the heavy lifting
'78 550K 2106630

Offline trigger

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 207
  • Engines built on reputation, not advertising.
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2022, 11:12:03 PM »
Replace the valves, springs and seals. The guides should be checked...it's a coin toss whether or not they are OK. Do the valve job as well. Just to clarify....you cannot grind the valves faces....you have to replace them. I have personally seen 550 and 750 ground valves and they are completely hammered out in less than 1,000 miles. Hammered as in the margin is reduced to a knife edge. If you replace the valves replace the threaded adjusters too. Old, pitted adjusters will ruin the stem tip in no time.
 Have the head bead blasted or vapor blasted.....it's well worth the expense.


Never heard of anyone saying that valves cannot be refaced. I have been building SOHC engines for the past 30 years and always reface pitted valve faces. Yes, there is a limit to how far you can grind.

The engine in this thread is coming up to 5000 miles after a full engine build with refaced Honda valves and seats reground >>> http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,20419.150.html

A smoking engine can be many things from piston to bore clearances, worn rings, valve guides and so on  ;)

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,566
  • Big ideas....
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #7 on: February 04, 2022, 06:42:05 AM »
Replace the valves, springs and seals. The guides should be checked...it's a coin toss whether or not they are OK. Do the valve job as well. Just to clarify....you cannot grind the valves faces....you have to replace them. I have personally seen 550 and 750 ground valves and they are completely hammered out in less than 1,000 miles. Hammered as in the margin is reduced to a knife edge. If you replace the valves replace the threaded adjusters too. Old, pitted adjusters will ruin the stem tip in no time.
 Have the head bead blasted or vapor blasted.....it's well worth the expense.


Never heard of anyone saying that valves cannot be refaced. I have been building SOHC engines for the past 30 years and always reface pitted valve faces. Yes, there is a limit to how far you can grind.

The engine in this thread is coming up to 5000 miles after a full engine build with refaced Honda valves and seats reground >>> http://www.sohc.co.uk/index.php/topic,20419.150.html

A smoking engine can be many things from piston to bore clearances, worn rings, valve guides and so on  ;)
May 4, 1971 Honda issued Service Letter #84 titled, "Intake and Exhaust Valve Refacing - Not Recommended". The Stellite coating is only a few thou thick. The OEM valves are soft as a grape....just like the 750 intake seats.
 People can do what ever they want to do.....I don't recommend it and will never do it after seeing the results. I have had plenty of Kibblewhite stainless valves ground....no problem there.
This is from Mike Nixon's site:
"Item: Refacing Honda valves

The valve's sealing area is its angled face. This precious, precisely-made surface is reasonably tough, but over time it gets pretty beat up. Spring tension, combustion's forces, and the camshaft's relentless pounding -- all combine to wear this face, eventually producing on it a ridge or ring, the imprint of the cylinder head's valve seat. This classic valve wear is called recession, because the valve actually gradually withdraws into the cylinder head. Normally, recession happens very slowly. In our grandfathers' day 30,000 miles was common. And it was easily corrected. The valve was removed from the engine and its ridge ground out on a special machine that had a super-smooth grinding wheel. You might be familiar with this.

But 70s and 80s vintage Japanese bikes are unique. You don't grind their valves, and recession on them is a whole 'nother story. On May 4, 1971 Honda issued Service Letter #84 titled, "Intake and Exhaust Valve Refacing - Not Recommended". The bulletin heralded a sea change about to sweep the Japanese segment of the motorcycle industry. The backstory was that no longer would Japanese makers' valves be made the traditional way, of two pieces welded together, the valve's head of a material optimized for its role and the valve's stem similarly of a unique metal. From this point on, the valve would be a one-piece forging, and a new thing, a thin plasma coating called Stellite, would be added to the valve for durability. The bulletin's succinct message was that due to this coating, and in a departure from standard automotive practice, this new-age valve could not be refaced during an engine rebuild. Replacement was now the only option.

However, it soon became painfully obvious that these new valves were astonishingly soft. By 15,000 miles and in many cases (such as in early 80s Kawasakis) sooner, they were badly receded, i.e. their sealing faces ridged -- despite the Stellite -- and had consequently lost sealing ability. This prevailed for many years. In fact it wasn't until almost 1990 that Honda and the other Japanese manufacturers would catch up to the issue. Thus for a model range of almost 20 years, Big Four bikes suffer the curse of soft, fast-wearing, throw-away valves, and all of these engines exhibit abnormally (and often seriously) low cylinder compression as a result.

In fact, low compression is the first and most significant practical consequence of these cheaply-made valves. All vintage Japanese engines, unless the valves have been replaced recently, need a valve job. All of them. The symptom is significantly low compression, typically a loss of more than 35 percent. Instead of 170 psi they exhibit just 110 to 130. Proper tuning of these engines is very problematic until they are repaired.

An added consequence of unusually fast valve recession is the valve moves steadily upward toward its tappet, reducing precious clearance. This further reduces compression and more importantly, also reduces valve cooling, leading quickly to burnt valves. In many engines, recession happens so fast the rider is aware of it only when discovering serious engine damage.

A third problem is ignorance. Many mechanics persist in refacing these valves. That is, grinding the valve's sealing face as was common until the 1970s. But removing a Big Four manufacturer's valve's special coating can cause it to quickly be heat damaged and will certainly increase its already rapid recession rate. The correct way to handle receded valves is to replace them. Some folks default to lapping the valve, that is, rubbing the valve against its seat with an abrasive paste in-between. Though countenanced by some manufacturers, lapping is a hack procedure. It does not address recession, but instead makes recession worse. At most consider lapping a "get it home" effort and no more than that. "
« Last Edit: February 04, 2022, 07:46:48 AM by MRieck »
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Don R

  • My Sandcast is a
  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 19,997
  • Saver of unloved motorcycles.
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2022, 08:00:30 AM »
Aha, that explains why I have exhaust valves with a non magnetic head and other valves that are totally magnetic end to end.
No matter how many times you paint over a shadow, it's still there.
 CEO at the no kill motorcycle shop.
 You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.

Offline flatlander

  • Old Timer
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,605
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2022, 08:34:28 AM »
thanks mike for these great insights!

Offline Little_Phil

  • Hot Shot
  • ***
  • Posts: 573
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2022, 05:53:47 AM »
We know that Jap bikes were built at a price for the mass market, but this thread makes it sound as we were all riding junk in the 70s.

Offline MRieck

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 10,566
  • Big ideas....
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2022, 08:27:21 AM »
We know that Jap bikes were built at a price for the mass market, but this thread makes it sound as we were all riding junk in the 70s.
Maybe we were! ;D ;D ;D ;)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline craz1

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 248
  • CDA, Idaho
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2022, 08:38:07 AM »
Well as much as we love our older bikes, I know when I get on my 2013 FJR you know right away how good or not so good they really were. They still bring a lot of enjoyment especially if you can upgrade to modern components.
74 CB550,73 Z1900, 74 Z1900, 75 Z1900,
72 XS2650, 73 RD350, 2013 FJR1300, 84 XJ550 YAM

Offline TwoTired

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 21,805
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2022, 04:56:34 PM »
Anyone know if case hardening is a decent substitute for the stellite process?
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.

Offline bryanj

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 14,051
  • CB500 Number 1000036
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2022, 06:13:47 AM »
My gut reaction is t wnt take thr hammering
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline trigger

  • Enthusiast
  • **
  • Posts: 207
  • Engines built on reputation, not advertising.
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #15 on: February 10, 2022, 12:14:07 AM »
My gut reaction is t wnt take thr hammering

Hammering is when you tell your missus your be back from the pub before closing time and you met some mates and ended up at a party until 3am  ;D

Strange that a Honda service letter advises not to reface valves but, i was issued a Honda valve re-facer and a valve seat grinding machine to my Honda shop in 1992. Maybe it was part of there sales drive to sell new valves mate  :o

Online PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,610
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2022, 04:03:17 AM »
Mike's post show it is cheaper in the long run to buy Kibblewhite valves or similar when restoring the head.

This reminds me about a CB750 K6 head I bought on eBay. It was in really good shape, residues from the sticky stock head gasket. No bad threads and no traces of have been worked on, except Honda assembly and US junk yard taking it off an engine.

The ex valves were really bad, looked overheated, their guides really bad too.

Inlet however, a completely different thing. Valves and seats looked almost like new. No wiggling valves in guides either.

Stock valves seems to be very fragile if not serviced correctly.
Valve lash to be checked, better with a little more than just under the tight stock lash.

I have an old K1 head where stock valves have been "refurbished". Knife thin edges just waiting to fall off and enter the seat much deeper.

That job done by a car engine shop..... Valves should have been replaced for very long time ago.

It has low priced "Made in Japan" valves waiting to be installed after guides (at least ex) are replaced and seats cut.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967

Offline ekpent

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 13,512
  • To many bikes-but lookin' for more
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2022, 06:11:38 AM »
Wonder if lapping the valve cuts through the thin stellite coating. Last time I had a head off I did some lapping to fix a coupe of leakers I found doing a bench test.

Online PeWe

  • Really Old Timer ...
  • *******
  • Posts: 15,610
  • Bike almost back to the 70's 2015
Re: K4 550 Valvetrain restore
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2022, 08:21:28 AM »
I have read about lapping valves as a no-no on other threads a few years ago.

Mike is the man that knows.
CB750 K6-76  970cc (Earlier 1005cc JMR Billet block on the shelf waiting for a comeback)
CB750 K2-75 Parts assembled to a stock K2

Updates of the CB750 K6 -1976
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180468.msg2092136.html#msg2092136
The billet block build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,49438.msg1863571.html#msg1863571
CB750 K2 -1975  build thread
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,168243.msg1948381.html#msg1948381
K2 engine build thread. For a complete CB750 -75
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,180088.msg2088008.html#msg2088008
Carb jetting, a long story Mikuni TMR32
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,179479.msg2104967.html#msg2104967