Author Topic: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F  (Read 2593 times)

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Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #50 on: June 24, 2023, 11:43:47 AM »
Yesterday the bike was running on 3 cylinders. I pulled out the plug for cylinder #3 and this is the result. Thoughts? It's obviously a goner, but why is it wet?
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #51 on: June 24, 2023, 11:47:54 AM »
Fuel is why it is wet. Replace it and if problem reoccurs then you may have issue to address. Check your oil, likely fuel contamination…may need to change your oil as excess fuel in the oil will compromise its lubrication.
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Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #52 on: June 24, 2023, 11:51:09 AM »
Fuel is why it is wet. Replace it and if problem reoccurs then you may have issue to address. Check your oil, likely fuel contamination…may need to change your oil as excess fuel in the oil will compromise its lubrication.

This isn't the first time #3 gets wet. What would be the issue? Head gaskets?
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #53 on: June 24, 2023, 11:52:46 AM »
Oil control issue for valves or your cylinder is super rich fouling plug and then plug is wet from fuel because plug is fouled out and not firing…
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #54 on: June 24, 2023, 12:01:35 PM »
I would take a look in the cyl/head through the spark plug hole with a small bore-scope;oil fouling is what it looks like,imo.
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #55 on: June 24, 2023, 12:50:46 PM »
Fuel is why it is wet. Replace it and if problem reoccurs then you may have issue to address. Check your oil, likely fuel contamination…may need to change your oil as excess fuel in the oil will compromise its lubrication.

This isn't the first time #3 gets wet. What would be the issue? Head gaskets?

Intake hoses. If the #4 is leaking badly enough, the #3 will foul the plug. This takes some explaining as to "why", but it is true on all of these bikes, seen it many times. Check the new intake boots for leaks: if you are using the normal OEM clamps on those new boots, they are not sealed because the new rubber is thinner, and the old clamps are also stretched. The 2 items together make for a poor, leaky seal.

The D8EA sparkplug is also too cold for these engines. The original plugs were D8ES-L, which is about halfway between the D8ES and D7ES plug heat range, and also has a longer, narrower ceramic tip to help burn off deposits: this sparkplug was created specifically for the CB750 by NGK at Honda's request in 1970. Today you can mimic that heatrange for in-town use with the D7EA or X22ES-U sparkplugs, and if you ride mostly in-town this might be the best all-around plug for your engine. Don't run Premium gas: it WILL foul the plugs today because our modern fuels burn far slower than the 1970s versions, with Midgrade (or even Regular in some areas) burning at the speed of 1970s premium-grade fuels. I only use Premium when riding our Out West interstates, and 2-up, at their 80-85 MPH speed limits on long trips. Otherwise I run Regular grade.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline MauiK3

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #56 on: June 24, 2023, 02:29:06 PM »
Great information
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #57 on: June 24, 2023, 05:11:18 PM »

Intake hoses. If the #4 is leaking badly enough, the #3 will foul the plug. This takes some explaining as to "why", but it is true on all of these bikes, seen it many times. Check the new intake boots for leaks: if you are using the normal OEM clamps on those new boots, they are not sealed because the new rubber is thinner, and the old clamps are also stretched. The 2 items together make for a poor, leaky seal.

The D8EA sparkplug is also too cold for these engines. The original plugs were D8ES-L, which is about halfway between the D8ES and D7ES plug heat range, and also has a longer, narrower ceramic tip to help burn off deposits: this sparkplug was created specifically for the CB750 by NGK at Honda's request in 1970. Today you can mimic that heatrange for in-town use with the D7EA or X22ES-U sparkplugs, and if you ride mostly in-town this might be the best all-around plug for your engine. Don't run Premium gas: it WILL foul the plugs today because our modern fuels burn far slower than the 1970s versions, with Midgrade (or even Regular in some areas) burning at the speed of 1970s premium-grade fuels. I only use Premium when riding our Out West interstates, and 2-up, at their 80-85 MPH speed limits on long trips. Otherwise I run Regular grade.

I'll check again for leaks, but also get new clamps.

The 22's seem to be a little harder to come by compared to the D7ES so I'll try the D7ES.

I was told X24ES-U were the way to go so I got some in stock. What's your take on those?

Also, I'm in Tucson, AZ and the weather is pretty hot here (if that matters).
« Last Edit: June 24, 2023, 05:21:00 PM by tofan »
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline scottly

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #58 on: June 24, 2023, 07:09:49 PM »
Yesterday the bike was running on 3 cylinders. I pulled out the plug for cylinder #3 and this is the result. Thoughts? It's obviously a goner, but why is it wet?
The #3 plug is fuel fouled again. Are the other three plugs black and sooty like before?
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #59 on: June 25, 2023, 09:24:12 AM »

Intake hoses. If the #4 is leaking badly enough, the #3 will foul the plug. This takes some explaining as to "why", but it is true on all of these bikes, seen it many times. Check the new intake boots for leaks: if you are using the normal OEM clamps on those new boots, they are not sealed because the new rubber is thinner, and the old clamps are also stretched. The 2 items together make for a poor, leaky seal.

The D8EA sparkplug is also too cold for these engines. The original plugs were D8ES-L, which is about halfway between the D8ES and D7ES plug heat range, and also has a longer, narrower ceramic tip to help burn off deposits: this sparkplug was created specifically for the CB750 by NGK at Honda's request in 1970. Today you can mimic that heatrange for in-town use with the D7EA or X22ES-U sparkplugs, and if you ride mostly in-town this might be the best all-around plug for your engine. Don't run Premium gas: it WILL foul the plugs today because our modern fuels burn far slower than the 1970s versions, with Midgrade (or even Regular in some areas) burning at the speed of 1970s premium-grade fuels. I only use Premium when riding our Out West interstates, and 2-up, at their 80-85 MPH speed limits on long trips. Otherwise I run Regular grade.

I'll check again for leaks, but also get new clamps.

The 22's seem to be a little harder to come by compared to the D7ES so I'll try the D7ES.

I was told X24ES-U were the way to go so I got some in stock. What's your take on those?

Also, I'm in Tucson, AZ and the weather is pretty hot here (if that matters).

The X24ES-U is my go-to plug for these engines, and I use it myself. In town I will run the XR24ES-U (resistor version) for a slightly longer spark and less unburned fuel buildup if I am going to be in heavy city traffic, or go one step hotter if I am spending more than a day or two in Denver proper (25 MPH speed limits there, lots of stoplights). Honda used to market this one as their own-boxed plugs for the CB750 engines until about 2004 or so when they quit handling privately-labelled plugs. I don't know if they are still doing it now?

One good way to tell if it is gas fouling or oil fouling is: as soon as the plug is pulled out, try to light it with a flame. If it burns it is gas, if not, oil.

Your hose clamps: put your screwdriver into the screw head and push hard to see if the hose clamp rotates. If it does, it is too big and the loss of vacuum causes the NEXT carb in the firing order to run richer because the engine stumbles slightly at the leaky one, so the next one's air intake speed is too slow. Since these carbs mix richer-per-air-volume as the air speed slows down, the next one gets a richer 'shot' of air-fuel mix, and after a few hundred thousand firings, the plug looks like yours. This leakage issue is 100% likely today if the hoses are new (and not NOS from before 2010 or so), and I run into it on every full-rebuild I do with these 750s. The reason: the new hoses are slightly thinner rubber, probably because we started yelling at Honda to make them again during their abandonment of us around 2006, but the old designs were on paper and long-gone. I suspect they took an old hose (2, actually) and made their best-guess at how they should be made because the engineer who originally designed them has died of old age and didn't pass on his notes to the new computer whiz kids at Honda who are designing the parts now. We are seeing this sort of lost-art happening a LOT these days, not just at Honda!

If the fouling is oil, you will likely also see some oil drooling around the exhaust header's clamp on the front of the engine. When Honda stopped using Stellite in the valve guides (circa mid-year 750K2 engines, 3/72 build dates) they switched to simple cast iron. The 750F0 engines once again received the fine Stellite valve guides, but they are expensive and vanished again in the 750F1 and all later versions. If yours is NOT a 750F0, and it has more than 10,000 miles on it, the exhaust valve guides are likely history if the bike was run during the 1990s when we suffered MTBE in our gasolines: that was especially good at dissolving cast iron rings and valve guides. I replace them with bronze guides today to prevent this from happening with our ethanol-laced gas, which strips all lubrication from the top end (it is a solvent) - this is done to extend the life of catalytic convertors in cars, but doesn't help us out one bit!.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #60 on: June 25, 2023, 02:07:19 PM »
Yesterday the bike was running on 3 cylinders. I pulled out the plug for cylinder #3 and this is the result. Thoughts? It's obviously a goner, but why is it wet?
The #3 plug is fuel fouled again. Are the other three plugs black and sooty like before?

1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #61 on: June 25, 2023, 02:08:50 PM »
Can someone verify something for the air screws of these carbs?

Screwing out = more air and Screwing in = less air?
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #62 on: June 25, 2023, 02:13:46 PM »

The X24ES-U is my go-to plug for these engines, and I use it myself. In town I will run the XR24ES-U (resistor version) for a slightly longer spark and less unburned fuel buildup if I am going to be in heavy city traffic, or go one step hotter if I am spending more than a day or two in Denver proper (25 MPH speed limits there, lots of stoplights). Honda used to market this one as their own-boxed plugs for the CB750 engines until about 2004 or so when they quit handling privately-labelled plugs. I don't know if they are still doing it now?

One good way to tell if it is gas fouling or oil fouling is: as soon as the plug is pulled out, try to light it with a flame. If it burns it is gas, if not, oil.

Your hose clamps: put your screwdriver into the screw head and push hard to see if the hose clamp rotates. If it does, it is too big and the loss of vacuum causes the NEXT carb in the firing order to run richer because the engine stumbles slightly at the leaky one, so the next one's air intake speed is too slow. Since these carbs mix richer-per-air-volume as the air speed slows down, the next one gets a richer 'shot' of air-fuel mix, and after a few hundred thousand firings, the plug looks like yours. This leakage issue is 100% likely today if the hoses are new (and not NOS from before 2010 or so), and I run into it on every full-rebuild I do with these 750s. The reason: the new hoses are slightly thinner rubber, probably because we started yelling at Honda to make them again during their abandonment of us around 2006, but the old designs were on paper and long-gone. I suspect they took an old hose (2, actually) and made their best-guess at how they should be made because the engineer who originally designed them has died of old age and didn't pass on his notes to the new computer whiz kids at Honda who are designing the parts now. We are seeing this sort of lost-art happening a LOT these days, not just at Honda!

If the fouling is oil, you will likely also see some oil drooling around the exhaust header's clamp on the front of the engine. When Honda stopped using Stellite in the valve guides (circa mid-year 750K2 engines, 3/72 build dates) they switched to simple cast iron. The 750F0 engines once again received the fine Stellite valve guides, but they are expensive and vanished again in the 750F1 and all later versions. If yours is NOT a 750F0, and it has more than 10,000 miles on it, the exhaust valve guides are likely history if the bike was run during the 1990s when we suffered MTBE in our gasolines: that was especially good at dissolving cast iron rings and valve guides. I replace them with bronze guides today to prevent this from happening with our ethanol-laced gas, which strips all lubrication from the top end (it is a solvent) - this is done to extend the life of catalytic convertors in cars, but doesn't help us out one bit!.

Great info. Thank you.

Intake #3 must be leaking somewhere... check out the attached photo. I tightened each clamp a little bit more until I get the new ones in.

Based on the results of all the plugs, at this point I feel I should change out the needles and jets with NOS from ebay which I'll do this coming weekend.

For the time being. I changed out all the plugs with new Denso X24ES-U. I immediately unscrewed #3 after installing it just to see and there was some wetness on the threads. It didn't burn when lit with a lighter, but smelled like fuel. 
« Last Edit: June 25, 2023, 02:23:08 PM by tofan »
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline scottly

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #63 on: June 25, 2023, 07:01:30 PM »
Yesterday the bike was running on 3 cylinders. I pulled out the plug for cylinder #3 and this is the result. Thoughts? It's obviously a goner, but why is it wet?
The #3 plug is fuel fouled again. Are the other three plugs black and sooty like before?
All four plugs are carbon fouled again, with #3 being the worst, just like in the first post. The engine is getting too much fuel, or not enough air. This has nothing to do with burning oil, and mixture screws don't have that much effect. Since it sounds like you have ruled out the carb fuel levels and emulsion tubes as a source of an overly rich condition, it leads me to think there is something restricting the air from getting into the carbs. Are you absolutely sure you aren't running with the choke on??? If not, I would try removing the air filter element. With new plugs, don't wait until it fouls #3 before checking to see if it made a difference. ;)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2023, 07:15:23 PM by scottly »
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Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #64 on: June 25, 2023, 07:44:52 PM »
Yesterday the bike was running on 3 cylinders. I pulled out the plug for cylinder #3 and this is the result. Thoughts? It's obviously a goner, but why is it wet?
The #3 plug is fuel fouled again. Are the other three plugs black and sooty like before?
All four plugs are carbon fouled again, with #3 being the worst, just like in the first post. The engine is getting too much fuel, or not enough air. This has nothing to do with burning oil, and mixture screws don't have that much effect. Since it sounds like you have ruled out the carb fuel levels and emulsion tubes as a source of an overly rich condition, it leads me to think there is something restricting the air from getting into the carbs. Are you absolutely sure you aren't running with the choke on??? If not, I would try removing the air filter element. With new plugs, don't wait until it fouls #3 before checking to see if it made a difference. ;)

Yeah, I'm sure I don't have the choke on - lever is in the down position. Maybe I should put some pods on it, haha. But seriously... maybe there's something wrong with the airbox... when I bought this bike it didn't come with one and had to get one off Ebay. I'll test it with the airbox off and report back.
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline scottly

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #65 on: June 25, 2023, 07:48:05 PM »
At least with the air box off you should be able to see if the choke lever is working properly. ;)
Don't fix it if it ain't broke!
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Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #66 on: June 25, 2023, 11:31:06 PM »
Where will you get NOS -392 F0/F1 needles?? Post an eBay link. I have my doubts as it took me MANY years to put together a set of 4. Possibly -300 needles or after market junk neither of which will have the same shape profile.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #67 on: June 26, 2023, 07:36:29 AM »
Where will you get NOS -392 F0/F1 needles?? Post an eBay link. I have my doubts as it took me MANY years to put together a set of 4. Possibly -300 needles or after market junk neither of which will have the same shape profile.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204308875717
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #68 on: June 26, 2023, 11:43:09 AM »
Where will you get NOS -392 F0/F1 needles?? Post an eBay link. I have my doubts as it took me MANY years to put together a set of 4. Possibly -300 needles or after market junk neither of which will have the same shape profile.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/204308875717

Very cool!!! Hope you can get 4.
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #69 on: June 26, 2023, 11:45:30 AM »
Yeah. Got 4 of them from him.
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #70 on: September 05, 2023, 10:02:17 AM »
Alright. Sorry for the radio silence. It's been too hot here to work on anything and it's finally starting to cool down.

I put in new plugs, new carb clamps, put it 87 octane and it ran great for a day. The next day it's back to the same 'ol crap. I'm at a total loss here!

Today's symptoms: I had a hard time starting it up. It starts, but dies immediately, with or without choke on. It's worse with choke on. Holding onto the throttle it's obvious it's not running on all 4 cylinders. Pipes 1 and 4 are hot, 2 and 3 not so much. Took it around the block. It struggled. Plugs seem ok, except 2 and 3 are a little wet.

I left it on it's side stand overnight with petcock off.

(Looking back at my previous posts maybe I'm actually making progress considering how the plugs l look... )




« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 10:58:37 AM by tofan »
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline grcamna2

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #71 on: September 05, 2023, 12:30:36 PM »
Alright. Sorry for the radio silence. It's been too hot here to work on anything and it's finally starting to cool down.

I put in new plugs, new carb clamps, put it 87 octane and it ran great for a day. The next day it's back to the same 'ol crap. I'm at a total loss here!

Today's symptoms: I had a hard time starting it up. It starts, but dies immediately, with or without choke on. It's worse with choke on. Holding onto the throttle it's obvious it's not running on all 4 cylinders. Pipes 1 and 4 are hot, 2 and 3 not so much. Took it around the block. It struggled. Plugs seem ok, except 2 and 3 are a little wet.

I left it on it's side stand overnight with petcock off.

(Looking back at my previous posts maybe I'm actually making progress considering how the plugs l look... )

How's your battery;do you get a hot spark from the ignition on all 4) plugs ?
Head-pipe temps even during initial warm-up ?
75' CB400F/'bunch o' parts' & 81' CB125S modded to a 'CB200S'
  I love the small ones too !
Do your BEST...nobody can take that away from you.

Offline Don R

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #72 on: September 05, 2023, 02:27:34 PM »
 My 76 had stock jets but they were drilled, it took a while to find that.
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Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #73 on: September 05, 2023, 03:39:44 PM »
Alright. Sorry for the radio silence. It's been too hot here to work on anything and it's finally starting to cool down.

I put in new plugs, new carb clamps, put it 87 octane and it ran great for a day. The next day it's back to the same 'ol crap. I'm at a total loss here!

Today's symptoms: I had a hard time starting it up. It starts, but dies immediately, with or without choke on. It's worse with choke on. Holding onto the throttle it's obvious it's not running on all 4 cylinders. Pipes 1 and 4 are hot, 2 and 3 not so much. Took it around the block. It struggled. Plugs seem ok, except 2 and 3 are a little wet.

I left it on it's side stand overnight with petcock off.

(Looking back at my previous posts maybe I'm actually making progress considering how the plugs l look... )

How's your battery;do you get a hot spark from the ignition on all 4) plugs ?
Head-pipe temps even during initial warm-up ?

Battery is good and basically new. How do verify if I get a hot spark? Is this the method where I take out the plug and touch the electrode to the engine case while other end is still connected to coil and turn the engine?

I'll check the temps of initial warm-up. I didn't do this.
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F

Offline tofan

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Re: Looking for troubleshooting Help on my 76 750F
« Reply #74 on: September 05, 2023, 04:05:59 PM »
My 76 had stock jets but they were drilled, it took a while to find that.

I inspected them multiple times and I think they're unmolested, but no way to tell with 100% certainty without comparing with known good version...but they all are identical to each other. I figure if one is bad the others should give the same symptoms.
1976 CB550K
1976 CB750F
1978 CB750F