Author Topic: Jet size issue  (Read 1049 times)

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Offline jwurbel

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Jet size issue
« on: January 26, 2024, 11:40:57 AM »
Due to lean condition in k2 with 657a carbs ordered #42 keihin jets from jetsrus.  The 42s will not fit in the pilot hole.  They are stamped correctly so not sure if it is normal to resize the hole.  If so, how?

Offline 69cb750

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #1 on: January 26, 2024, 11:42:34 AM »
Quote
not sure if it is normal to resize the hole

 No !!

Offline bryanj

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #2 on: January 26, 2024, 11:45:08 AM »
Wrong jets or badly manufactured, ask the supplier, did you quote just the bike o that and carb type
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Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2024, 12:21:58 PM »
Due to lean condition in k2 with 657a carbs ordered #42 keihin jets from jetsrus.  The 42s will not fit in the pilot hole.  They are stamped correctly so not sure if it is normal to resize the hole.  If so, how?

Are you certain it's the right jet? Make sure you use the "identify that jet" feature https://jetsrus.com/FAQs/FAQ_identify_that_jet.htm
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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2024, 01:15:56 PM »
Figured it out.  Didn’t measure tip correctly.  Saw 4mm when it was really two. 

Any one need 4 incorrect 42 jets cheap?

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2024, 07:10:38 PM »
It might be a blessing!?
I've never seen a situation where the pilot jet should go up to #42. I have seen a couple where the pilot could go to #38 for a substantial improvement (in reducing plug fouling problems), which is actually a #37.5 by measure.

What I've found in bikes that had a lean low-end problem was/is: the floats are set too high (more than 26mm float height) because the measurement to the floats was made with the float bowl gasket still in place, or else the height was set using the notch on the sides of the carb body instead of the gasket surface. While the normal 26mm float height is most often used in the K2-K6/F0/1 bikes, I've almost always set the floats a little deeper (25mm) than that number because of stiff float valves that are sold today. The spring in the modern float valves are much, much stiffer than the OEM versions were, and if set to the same depth will cause a lower-than-normal float bowl depth in the end. This will make the low-RPM run lean.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2024, 03:46:41 AM »
Interesting comment.  I used the clear tube method and measured from the bottom of the upper carb body while on the bike.  So that would make them set too high? They don’t overflow as I have left the petcock open over night.  Will recheck and if necessary lower them and let you know.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2024, 06:39:48 AM by jwurbel »

Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2024, 05:47:59 AM »
It might be a blessing!?
I've never seen a situation where the pilot jet should go up to #42. I have seen a couple where the pilot could go to #38 for a substantial improvement (in reducing plug fouling problems), which is actually a #37.5 by measure.

What I've found in bikes that had a lean low-end problem was/is: the floats are set too high (more than 26mm float height) because the measurement to the floats was made with the float bowl gasket still in place, or else the height was set using the notch on the sides of the carb body instead of the gasket surface. While the normal 26mm float height is most often used in the K2-K6/F0/1 bikes, I've almost always set the floats a little deeper (25mm) than that number because of stiff float valves that are sold today. The spring in the modern float valves are much, much stiffer than the OEM versions were, and if set to the same depth will cause a lower-than-normal float bowl depth in the end. This will make the low-RPM run lean.

And do you generally find that this translates to the correct fuel height when verifying with clear tube?

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #8 on: January 27, 2024, 11:00:04 AM »
I think we've been called worse than that? I know I have! :D

I haven't used the clear-tube method myself, partly for lack of the hardware to do it, but more because I've used the floatbowl's "signs" of the fuel level for a long time instead. What these methods won't tell you, though, is: how well is the bowl STAYING at that depth when the engine is running? This symptom wasn't even "a thing" until about 2004 or so when the springs in the float valves suddenly changed to being far stiffer than OEM. This makes  for a delay between the time the fuel level drops (which happens almost instantly when the throttle is opened) and the time the flow begins, and with the stiffer springs it always begins later than OEM design. That particular symptom needs a different 'spec' to be applied to the float height if the fill-time-delay is enough to cause a lean-burn situation that slows down the engine's low-end response. I consider that to be dangerous in traffic, myself, so I run the bowls deeper than spec, and with staggered float heights like the K0/1 carbs (with brass floats) had. Those early 750s had stellar low-end throttle response (if dark sparkplugs, for other reasons) that went away with the model 657b carbs (which had plastic floats instead of bass) and while it took me almost 2 years to figure out that was causing the low-end stumbles (and not the HM341 pipes. like everyone else thought: the RPM was too low for that to be the cause) I finally nailed it by staggering the plastic floats, too.

This all started over when the too-stiff float valves came out.

I also find it interesting that the 750F0 bikes started out with brass floats, for about 3 months' production, then went plastic. Personally, I think this was to make a 'splash' on the scene when this new bike arrived, but maybe that's just me?

If you raise the float level and find the sparkplugs are getting too dark too soon, then open up the holes in the mainjet emulsifier. They are often only 0.033" or 0.035" diameter, and should be at least 0.0375" with oxygenated fuels (ethanol, etc.). Mine are at 0.039", but I live at 6000 feet altitude: that move was self-defense on my part so I didn't foul so many plugs when relegated to 20 MPH freeway traffic for miles on end in commuting service.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2024, 11:51:49 AM »
I think we've been called worse than that? I know I have! :D

I haven't used the clear-tube method myself, partly for lack of the hardware to do it, but more because I've used the floatbowl's "signs" of the fuel level for a long time instead. What these methods won't tell you, though, is: how well is the bowl STAYING at that depth when the engine is running? This symptom wasn't even "a thing" until about 2004 or so when the springs in the float valves suddenly changed to being far stiffer than OEM. This makes  for a delay between the time the fuel level drops (which happens almost instantly when the throttle is opened) and the time the flow begins, and with the stiffer springs it always begins later than OEM design. That particular symptom needs a different 'spec' to be applied to the float height if the fill-time-delay is enough to cause a lean-burn situation that slows down the engine's low-end response. I consider that to be dangerous in traffic, myself, so I run the bowls deeper than spec, and with staggered float heights like the K0/1 carbs (with brass floats) had. Those early 750s had stellar low-end throttle response (if dark sparkplugs, for other reasons) that went away with the model 657b carbs (which had plastic floats instead of bass) and while it took me almost 2 years to figure out that was causing the low-end stumbles (and not the HM341 pipes. like everyone else thought: the RPM was too low for that to be the cause) I finally nailed it by staggering the plastic floats, too.

This all started over when the too-stiff float valves came out.

I also find it interesting that the 750F0 bikes started out with brass floats, for about 3 months' production, then went plastic. Personally, I think this was to make a 'splash' on the scene when this new bike arrived, but maybe that's just me?

If you raise the float level and find the sparkplugs are getting too dark too soon, then open up the holes in the mainjet emulsifier. They are often only 0.033" or 0.035" diameter, and should be at least 0.0375" with oxygenated fuels (ethanol, etc.). Mine are at 0.039", but I live at 6000 feet altitude: that move was self-defense on my part so I didn't foul so many plugs when relegated to 20 MPH freeway traffic for miles on end in commuting service.

One of the great delights of a Hondaman (TM) post is that they often ask more questions than they answer.

Staggering float heights? Tell me more.
"All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."

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Offline grcamna2

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2024, 02:43:13 PM »
It might be a blessing!?
I've never seen a situation where the pilot jet should go up to #42. I have seen a couple where the pilot could go to #38 for a substantial improvement (in reducing plug fouling problems), which is actually a #37.5 by measure.

What I've found in bikes that had a lean low-end problem was/is: the floats are set too high (more than 26mm float height) because the measurement to the floats was made with the float bowl gasket still in place, or else the height was set using the notch on the sides of the carb body instead of the gasket surface. While the normal 26mm float height is most often used in the K2-K6/F0/1 bikes, I've almost always set the floats a little deeper (25mm) than that number because of stiff float valves that are sold today. The spring in the modern float valves are much, much stiffer than the OEM versions were, and if set to the same depth will cause a lower-than-normal float bowl depth in the end. This will make the low-RPM run lean.

I have also found the spring 'peg' on modern float valves(even K&L Made in Japan float valves back in the 90's..)much too strong,which causes the small wear 'dimple' on the float tang of all the floats and that can sometimes cause floats to overflow;I hate that.
I always try my best to locate NOS Honda brand float valves whenever I can and have been successful,even though it takes a while to locate them.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2024, 07:22:00 PM »

One of the great delights of a Hondaman (TM) post is that they often ask more questions than they answer.

Staggering float heights? Tell me more.
Quote
I have also found the spring 'peg' on modern float valves(even K&L Made in Japan float valves back in the 90's..)much too strong,which causes the small wear 'dimple' on the float tang of all the floats and that can sometimes cause floats to overflow;I hate that.
I always try my best to locate NOS Honda brand float valves whenever I can and have been successful,even though it takes a while to locate them.

Bill brings up another point, one that I often have to fix up during carb rebuilds. The float tangs can develop a dimple where the valve's tip works against it, and this can make the action of opening the valve later than it should be. This also lets the bowls run lower than they should. This dimple can be gently filed flat again on the float tang, which results in faster float-fill reaction and shutoff when full.

In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. My Honda mentor once mentioned it, too, on his sandcast, and we both decided it was likely because the bikes had a habit of leaking fuel when parked on the sidestand with hot engines on hot days, in the sun: having both floats working in tandem offered a bit more closure force on the float valve just when the sun was raising tank pressure. This pressure increase forced fuel past the petcock's seal and into the carbs' hoses, and if there wasn't enough force to hold the valve shut, up into the overflow tube and onto the ground despite the petcock being shut off. This makes a small wet spot under the bike when parked in the sun, and there isn't much can be done about stopping it, outside of lowering the float bowl levels so they can't overflow with this much extra fuel - but then the low-throttle response goes flat because the level is too low. The improved low-RPM performance and throttle response of the staggered floats was noticed as being missing when the 657B series carbs, with their plastic, equally-set floats, even on the very last of the K1 bikes with 657A carbs from the New Factory, and became one of the 'trademarks' on bikes that were sometimes trucked in from 2 States away for the [so-called] 'legendary' performance improvements my shop could give the later bikes without opening the engines. The other things involved slowing down the spark advancers, swapping front sprockets down to 17T versions, making sure the tires were good and pressures were properly high (many get run with low PSI, even now), and if the exhuast pipes were the [in]famous 7-chamber versions of the K3, drilling large holes into the last baffle to reduce backpressure a little. Essentially, we were just [re]applying Honda's earlier state-of-tune to the later bikes. The Kawi 900 had, by then, begun taking the Saturday Night street from the 750, but there were lots of other fish to fry and the Kawi made a less comfortable tourer, so the Honda endured.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline newday777

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2024, 03:13:56 AM »

One of the great delights of a Hondaman (TM) post is that they often ask more questions than they answer.

Staggering float heights? Tell me more.
Quote
I have also found the spring 'peg' on modern float valves(even K&L Made in Japan float valves back in the 90's..)much too strong,which causes the small wear 'dimple' on the float tang of all the floats and that can sometimes cause floats to overflow;I hate that.
I always try my best to locate NOS Honda brand float valves whenever I can and have been successful,even though it takes a while to locate them.

Bill brings up another point, one that I often have to fix up during carb rebuilds. The float tangs can develop a dimple where the valve's tip works against it, and this can make the action of opening the valve later than it should be. This also lets the bowls run lower than they should. This dimple can be gently filed flat again on the float tang, which results in faster float-fill reaction and shutoff when full.

In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. My Honda mentor once mentioned it, too, on his sandcast, and we both decided it was likely because the bikes had a habit of leaking fuel when parked on the sidestand with hot engines on hot days, in the sun: having both floats working in tandem offered a bit more closure force on the float valve just when the sun was raising tank pressure. This pressure increase forced fuel past the petcock's seal and into the carbs' hoses, and if there wasn't enough force to hold the valve shut, up into the overflow tube and onto the ground despite the petcock being shut off. This makes a small wet spot under the bike when parked in the sun, and there isn't much can be done about stopping it, outside of lowering the float bowl levels so they can't overflow with this much extra fuel - but then the low-throttle response goes flat because the level is too low. The improved low-RPM performance and throttle response of the staggered floats was noticed as being missing when the 657B series carbs, with their plastic, equally-set floats, even on the very last of the K1 bikes with 657A carbs from the New Factory, and became one of the 'trademarks' on bikes that were sometimes trucked in from 2 States away for the [so-called] 'legendary' performance improvements my shop could give the later bikes without opening the engines. The other things involved slowing down the spark advancers, swapping front sprockets down to 17T versions, making sure the tires were good and pressures were properly high (many get run with low PSI, even now), and if the exhuast pipes were the [in]famous 7-chamber versions of the K3, drilling large holes into the last baffle to reduce backpressure a little. Essentially, we were just [re]applying Honda's earlier state-of-tune to the later bikes. The Kawi 900 had, by then, begun taking the Saturday Night street from the 750, but there were lots of other fish to fry and the Kawi made a less comfortable tourer, so the Honda endured.
"In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. "

Mark
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

Stu
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My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
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Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline Scootch

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2024, 03:30:12 AM »
Anyone that is having issues with the carbs overflowing should check the petcock mounting screws/washers. If those screws are not tight or the washers are not fibre and sealing properly fuel will leak even with the petcock in the OFF position.

Offline jonda500

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2024, 03:37:03 PM »
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

I think he means that within each carb the two floats are slightly tweaked relative to each other so the left side part of each carb's float sits 1mm higher than the right side part.

In my 37 years of riding I have hardly ever turned off the fuel tap when parked and the only rare times that fuel has leaked out the overflow tubes onto the ground was when my needle and seat valves needed replacing (or cleaning). More recently my rebuilt by harisuluv carbs showed me another way for fuel to leak - out the fuel tee's between carbs #1&#2 and #3&#4. If I leave the fuel tap turned off for a few weeks the fuel in the bowls slowly evaporates but the small amount of fuel in the lines keeps them topped up until that runs out, then the tuel tee o rings dry out and shrink and the next time I turn the fuel on it pisses out from between bowls 1&2 and 3&4 and I have to wait a few hours for the o rings to swell back up.  >:(

Leaking from the fibre washers under the screws that hold on the fuel tap is only a problem when you need to remove the fuel tank? (or when you have leaking needle&seat valves) -although you would lose your fuel reserve!
John
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2024, 08:25:18 PM »

"In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. "

Mark
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

JHonda500 above has it right: it is the left & right float in each carb that I'm trying to describe.

Think of it this way: if the bike is on the sidestand the fuel is sloped inside the bowls, with the 'high' side toward the kickstand, That's the one that gets the 25mm setting, putting the float higher inside the chamber and thus using both floats to push the fuel valve shut. Without this little setting, only the kickstand-side float is pushing it closed, and this causes the float's bracket to dig into the opposite side's mounting post, which slowly builds up a tiny ridge there. Over enough miles, this causes the floats to not close at all when the float valve recesses into the soft brass float valve seat, and the bikes piddle fuel slowly with the petcock on when parked on the sidestand because the float valves are not being pressed closed all the way by just the one low-side float. I suppose the hope of the stronger float valve spring was to try to stop that (or else it was because it became a common part for ALL such carbs by making it as strong as the later carbs needed, IMHO).

If you have access to an old (and still OEM) set of the K0 or K1 carbs you'll see this in them, if they are factory-virgin, still. These also have tiny little edges adjacent to the notches in the float gasket surface: it is these little cast-in and also machined-off edges (on a per-carb basis!) that are the actual float reference Zero point. In the 657b and later carbs the middle body of the carb was raised a little bit and the float gasket surface, sans gasket, became the 'new' zero reference - IMHO this was done by a new engineer who was assigned to "cut costs" in the 750, and he didn't know the witchcraft of the early builders. It was then that the floats also became both 26mm height, and the Honda manual (the green one) was altered to show 26mm, even if you ordered one for the K0 bikes. This was never true, but over the years became the 'norm', causing much confusion (and arguments!) about setting the floats in what appears to be the same carbs from the K1 to the K6/F0-1 bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline newday777

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #16 on: January 29, 2024, 05:49:57 AM »

"In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. "

Mark
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

JHonda500 above has it right: it is the left & right float in each carb that I'm trying to describe.

Think of it this way: if the bike is on the sidestand the fuel is sloped inside the bowls, with the 'high' side toward the kickstand, That's the one that gets the 25mm setting, putting the float higher inside the chamber and thus using both floats to push the fuel valve shut. Without this little setting, only the kickstand-side float is pushing it closed, and this causes the float's bracket to dig into the opposite side's mounting post, which slowly builds up a tiny ridge there. Over enough miles, this causes the floats to not close at all when the float valve recesses into the soft brass float valve seat, and the bikes piddle fuel slowly with the petcock on when parked on the sidestand because the float valves are not being pressed closed all the way by just the one low-side float. I suppose the hope of the stronger float valve spring was to try to stop that (or else it was because it became a common part for ALL such carbs by making it as strong as the later carbs needed, IMHO).

If you have access to an old (and still OEM) set of the K0 or K1 carbs you'll see this in them, if they are factory-virgin, still. These also have tiny little edges adjacent to the notches in the float gasket surface: it is these little cast-in and also machined-off edges (on a per-carb basis!) that are the actual float reference Zero point. In the 657b and later carbs the middle body of the carb was raised a little bit and the float gasket surface, sans gasket, became the 'new' zero reference - IMHO this was done by a new engineer who was assigned to "cut costs" in the 750, and he didn't know the witchcraft of the early builders. It was then that the floats also became both 26mm height, and the Honda manual (the green one) was altered to show 26mm, even if you ordered one for the K0 bikes. This was never true, but over the years became the 'norm', causing much confusion (and arguments!) about setting the floats in what appears to be the same carbs from the K1 to the K6/F0-1 bikes.
Ah yes, as in each carb float, has 2 bobbers(fishing bobbers)! And they are where the stagger is, ie each side is set to different height repeated in each of the 4 carbs.  😉
Stu
Honda Parts manager in the mid 1970s Nashua Honda
My current rides
1975 K5 Planet Blue my summer ride, it was a friend's bike I worked with at the Honda shop in 76, lots of fun to be on it again
1976 K6 Anteres Red rebuilding project, was originally my brother's that I set up from the crate, it'll breath again soon!
Project 750s, 2 K4, 2 K6, 1 K8
2008 GL1800 my daily ride and cross country runner

Prior bikes....
1972 Suzuki GT380 I had charge of it for a year in 1973 while my friend was deployed and learned to love street riding....
New CB450 K7 after my friend returned...
New CB750 K5 Planet Blue, demise by ex cousin in law at 9,000 miles...
New CB750 K6 Anteres Red, to replace the totaled K5, I sold this K6 at 45k in 1983, I had heavily modified it, many great memories on it and have missed it greatly.....
1983 GL1100A, 1999 GL1500 SE, 1999 GL1500A

Offline leovich

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2024, 02:02:48 PM »

"In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. "

Mark
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

JHonda500 above has it right: it is the left & right float in each carb that I'm trying to describe.

Think of it this way: if the bike is on the sidestand the fuel is sloped inside the bowls, with the 'high' side toward the kickstand, That's the one that gets the 25mm setting, putting the float higher inside the chamber and thus using both floats to push the fuel valve shut. Without this little setting, only the kickstand-side float is pushing it closed, and this causes the float's bracket to dig into the opposite side's mounting post, which slowly builds up a tiny ridge there. Over enough miles, this causes the floats to not close at all when the float valve recesses into the soft brass float valve seat, and the bikes piddle fuel slowly with the petcock on when parked on the sidestand because the float valves are not being pressed closed all the way by just the one low-side float. I suppose the hope of the stronger float valve spring was to try to stop that (or else it was because it became a common part for ALL such carbs by making it as strong as the later carbs needed, IMHO).

If you have access to an old (and still OEM) set of the K0 or K1 carbs you'll see this in them, if they are factory-virgin, still. These also have tiny little edges adjacent to the notches in the float gasket surface: it is these little cast-in and also machined-off edges (on a per-carb basis!) that are the actual float reference Zero point. In the 657b and later carbs the middle body of the carb was raised a little bit and the float gasket surface, sans gasket, became the 'new' zero reference - IMHO this was done by a new engineer who was assigned to "cut costs" in the 750, and he didn't know the witchcraft of the early builders. It was then that the floats also became both 26mm height, and the Honda manual (the green one) was altered to show 26mm, even if you ordered one for the K0 bikes. This was never true, but over the years became the 'norm', causing much confusion (and arguments!) about setting the floats in what appears to be the same carbs from the K1 to the K6/F0-1 bikes.

I’m very interested in this argument, you are saying that in the green Honda manual the float height target is 26mm for both the floats. Do you have a reference for the earlier manual? Does someone has the genuine honda factory tool used for setting the float height and can measure if the two sides are different in height between each other?

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2024, 07:38:54 PM »

"In the K0 and K1 CB750 with brass floats the floats were always staggered by 1mm or so. The "high" side float (relative to the bike leaning over on the kickstand) received the most-commonly recommended 26mm setting while the 'low" side float got 25mm instead. All [virgin] K0 and 657A series carbs were set this way, as far as I found. "

Mark
The confusion is in you mention just the low side, carb #1, 25mm, and the high side, carb #4, 26mm.
What about carbs #2&3? You don't mention those heights each time.

JHonda500 above has it right: it is the left & right float in each carb that I'm trying to describe.

Think of it this way: if the bike is on the sidestand the fuel is sloped inside the bowls, with the 'high' side toward the kickstand, That's the one that gets the 25mm setting, putting the float higher inside the chamber and thus using both floats to push the fuel valve shut. Without this little setting, only the kickstand-side float is pushing it closed, and this causes the float's bracket to dig into the opposite side's mounting post, which slowly builds up a tiny ridge there. Over enough miles, this causes the floats to not close at all when the float valve recesses into the soft brass float valve seat, and the bikes piddle fuel slowly with the petcock on when parked on the sidestand because the float valves are not being pressed closed all the way by just the one low-side float. I suppose the hope of the stronger float valve spring was to try to stop that (or else it was because it became a common part for ALL such carbs by making it as strong as the later carbs needed, IMHO).

If you have access to an old (and still OEM) set of the K0 or K1 carbs you'll see this in them, if they are factory-virgin, still. These also have tiny little edges adjacent to the notches in the float gasket surface: it is these little cast-in and also machined-off edges (on a per-carb basis!) that are the actual float reference Zero point. In the 657b and later carbs the middle body of the carb was raised a little bit and the float gasket surface, sans gasket, became the 'new' zero reference - IMHO this was done by a new engineer who was assigned to "cut costs" in the 750, and he didn't know the witchcraft of the early builders. It was then that the floats also became both 26mm height, and the Honda manual (the green one) was altered to show 26mm, even if you ordered one for the K0 bikes. This was never true, but over the years became the 'norm', causing much confusion (and arguments!) about setting the floats in what appears to be the same carbs from the K1 to the K6/F0-1 bikes.

I’m very interested in this argument, you are saying that in the green Honda manual the float height target is 26mm for both the floats. Do you have a reference for the earlier manual? Does someone has the genuine honda factory tool used for setting the float height and can measure if the two sides are different in height between each other?

The 'catch' about the earlier bikes (and original Honda manuals) is/was: the sandcast, K0 and Old Factory K1 carbs (at the least) have tiny slivers of a casting next to the notch of the float bowl's gasket surface. This little sliver is the zero reference seat for those early carbs, and was milled off quite precisely for each carb body. This feature vanished in the 657b and later carbs entirely (unless yours have the brass floats, like in the F0 bikes)) in favor of using the float bowl gasket surface as the zero reference.

In the mix of years and carbs: I have seen this little sliver in K0 carbs be 1mm higher on the "high" side, and I have also seen both of them being the same height. When they were staggered 1mm, that became our early 'clue' to what was going on, and about that same time Honda was issuing Service Memos (not the same as Service Bulletins for general public consumption) explaining this black magic. (There were a bunch of those for the sandcast bikes!) At that time, the 'problem' being solved was the dribbles under the bike's carb hoses from being parked on hot days on the sidestand, and we were busy trying 'higher' float settings, making sure the gas tank's vent wasn't plugged, and sometimes even rebuilding the carbs to stop it (it didn't.). While we accidentally discovered that setting the sandcast and K0 bike's floats to 26mm on both sides, using the float gasket surface as a zero, made for fewer fouled sparkplugs (those bikes ran too rich), it also made a slight flat spot just off idle that required setting the idle speed up to 1100 RPM to relieve. In the end of this saga, we drilled out the emulsifier holes (to as much as 0.039") to resolve the flat spot, but the bikes still piddled from the bowls if the bike was hot, the day was hot, and the fuel petcock was left open, and somewhat less when it was closed.

What happens is: the near-horizontal section of the fuel hose that reaches over to the #3-#4 carb fuel feed increases pressure when the bike is parked hot as the tank and fuel lines get heated by the engine. This causes both the air in the line and the fuel itself to expand to more PSI than the float valves can hold back, and it force-feeds (pumps) fuel to those carbs until it reaches the top of the overflow tubes. Since these tubes are halfway between the floats and about 24mm equivalent fuel-depth, they bleed the fuel out to the overflow when it reaches the same height as the 'low' side's gasket surface, hoping to not soak the low-side of the gasket in fuel while parked. It often does anyway...while the fuel tank's pressure relief valve is hopefully set below the pressure needed to push fuel past the tank's petcock seal, our modern gasolines soften and swell the petcock seal when wet, then make it hard and shrunken when dry, and it doesn't seal as well as they once did in 1970. So, today we can see it dribble when the bike is parked after a hot run, even with the petcock closed, so Honda (or Keihin) decided to stiffen up the float valves' spring to attempt to seal the valve a little tighter nowadays. While that actually worked, it introduced the bug we all now fight with float bowl fuel heights: the old softer springs let the fuel run deeper with road bumps and jiggles than the new stiffer valves will, so we end up with a lean spot at 1/8 throttle or so that makes for a small stumble in the throttle response because the float bowls don't fill as deep while riding.

I, for one, don't like that stumble, especially in city traffic (it is worse in the pre-657b series carbs) so I readjusted the emulsifier tubes' holes, air screw setting, ignition timing (delayed the advance start) and staggered the floats so as to make the bowls stay generally deeper. It works, but not without a bit of fussing to get it right. Throw in some seat wear for the idle-adjust screw, and the factory settings become merely a historical starting reference.

...and, yep, mine still piddles when parked in the sun with a hot engine and the fuel valve off, and can even leak in the garage with a cold engine and an open petcock when the barometer jumps as fast as it sometimes can here in the Mile High area. We can move 3 barometric points in as little as 15 minutes in Spring and Fall, enough to make one's ears pop! It's usually followed by high winds, like 100+ MPH...and gasoline smells from the garage...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline jwurbel

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2024, 04:18:53 AM »
Wow! Never read such a thorough explanation.  Thanks.

Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2024, 06:22:00 AM »
Ok so if the carbs still leak this season then I'm just turning off the petcock and waiting a minute until I switch the bike off.
"All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."

'77 CB750 SS

Offline MauiK3

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2024, 07:02:38 AM »
I always turn the petcock off, just makes me feel better about potential fuel leaks.
This is a great forum and saying anything about nerds is funny, I don't recall that term coming into use until long after the SOHC bikes were no longer in production.
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline Floshenbarnical

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2024, 08:55:10 AM »
I always turn the petcock off, just makes me feel better about potential fuel leaks.
This is a great forum and saying anything about nerds is funny, I don't recall that term coming into use until long after the SOHC bikes were no longer in production.

I love being a nerd. Can you imagine not having an obsession? I think I would just cease to exist.
"All things change in a dynamic environment. Your effort to remain what you are is what limits you."

'77 CB750 SS

Offline willbird

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Re: Jet size issue
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2024, 08:56:48 AM »
I always turn the petcock off, just makes me feel better about potential fuel leaks.
This is a great forum and saying anything about nerds is funny, I don't recall that term coming into use until long after the SOHC bikes were no longer in production.

I love being a nerd. Can you imagine not having an obsession? I think I would just cease to exist.

Back in the day I left my petcock on once and a few days later the fuel tank was empty, I have never fully recovered from that even though my needles and seats are better today.

Bill