Author Topic: 400/4 sticking rpms  (Read 615 times)

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Offline MDW

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400/4 sticking rpms
« on: March 09, 2026, 05:40:56 PM »
My 1975 400/4 has a rev hang issue. When I rev the engine and let go the throttle the revs only slowly reduce. The auto advance looks in good shape (if a little worn). I bought an after market replacement but it didn't fit properly, so I have the original back in place. I wondered about the throttle cable, but the carbs snap shut when I let go the throttle. There is a little paly in the cable and when I roll the throttle as far forward as possible the revs seem to reduce quicker (but could this be an issue if the carbs snap shut?). Thanks for any thoughts on this.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #1 on: March 09, 2026, 07:37:57 PM »
It's very common on the smaller Fours.
The most-common cause is: the springs on the spark advancer have become heat-softened (annealed) from years of temperature cycling, and they do not pull the advancer 'closed' below 2500 RPM like when they were new. With today's gasolines, which also burn much more slowly than 1970s gas (so as to light off catalytic convertors), this just makes the situation more common now. Also: today's Regular grade gas burns at about the same rate as 1970s Premium gas, so using Premium grades today makes this whole thing even more common - especially in warmer weather.

On nearly every SOHC4 engine I've rebuilt (since about 1996) I cut off no less than 1/2 turn from both spark advancer springs. In the 500/550 it usually takes more than this, and the 350F/400F takes at least that much. And, I do this before trying to modify carbs, mixtures, air filters, all that other stuff. It is simply due to the softening of those springs that it is so common now. My own 750 got to the point by 1985 or so that I had to do it to it way back then, at about 70,000 miles.

Another thing that can cause this on the 350F/400F is: idle mixture on the carbs set too rich, or 'pod' air filters. Both leave excessive unburned, unaerated fuel lying in the intake manifolds when the throttle is closed: this is partly due to the types of carbs Honda was forced to use for emissions reasons, which let in idle-mix fuel below the slide in most of those later carbs. This causes a snapped-shut throttle situation to run slightly rich for a few seconds, which damped combustion in the mufflers to reduce certain oxides of nitrogen in the exhaust gases (i.e. early emissions controls). When the spark advancer won't retract the weights soon enough, this leftover fuel also ignites (which it is not intended to do) and thus increases "noxious" oxides in the exhaust gases. (This is why enrichening the low-speed fuel circuits in the 350F will actually help it pass emissions tests when required).
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2026, 04:00:03 PM »
HondaMan thank you.  I guess you shorten the end with the hook and just rebend the wire into a hook again? Do you have a source for the springs? Also on the fuel mix/idle mix screw, I have messed with those a lot. If I recall, the further the screw goes in (i.e. clockwise rotation) that makes mix richer (hope I got that right). 

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2026, 06:01:58 PM »
Yep, clip off the last 1/2 turn (it's more like 3/4 turn) on the post end of the spring(s), then bend the next turn of the spring out to land it on the post again. It doesn't work as well on the weight side, so I use the post side. When you start with it, note how loose it is when you operate the [points] cam manually and let it snap back (hopefully it DOES snap back) to see if it is even reaching the zero position again. I have seen the 400F springs be so softened that they don't pull the points cam home again at all. Then I end up taking more like 1.5 loops off those springs.

The mixture screw: you've got it backward: the more out it goes, the richer it gets, until about 3 turns. Then there's no further change. The 400F carbs actually have a 2nd downstream hole in the carb's throat, downstream from there the slide closes over the 1st idle-mixture hole. The one under the slide is the one controlled directly by the idle jet itself, and the other hole is over the 'mixture screw', which is actually an 'enrichment screw' that was put there to meet 1970s emissions laws: the idle mix is controlled with the idle jet size and the 'extra' mix supplied by the screw is there to help reduce certain oxides of nitrogen when the slide is closed (and engine decelerating from higher speeds). Because there is quite a distance from the carbs to the engine, the wetness introduced by the "idle mix screw" will even show itself as a wedge-shaped extra-clean spot along the floor of the carb throat (toward the engine side) when you look inside them. It is this wetness that muddles the mix-up a little, letting us think we are adjusting the idle mix: that part was already done by the idle jet itself in these PD style carbs. They are a bit different form the simpler, earlier carbs, where the same hole that the idle jets fed was also controlled somewhat with that screw.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline thirsty 1

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2026, 12:28:18 AM »
I'm having a bit of the same issue, kinda. What should the carbs pull in inHG for a idle setting? I have found that if I'm and doing a sync. the Idle will hang if I run the sync screws up and the low idle screw does nothing. I then run the sync screws in until it dies. At This point the low idle screw works again. It's been 10 years since I played with the carbs. I pulled mine and set the floats at 22-23mm. Runs good but I dont know the base setting for the carbs ??

 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0
https://youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0?si=yo_Gcl5J6PwiTQAI
« Last Edit: March 11, 2026, 12:33:44 AM by thirsty 1 »
73' CL125, 75' CB400F, 16' KTM 1190R, 05' KTM 525EXC

75' CB400F  -  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127295.0

My 79 CB750F for fun   ----   http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=19923.0

Offline hoodellyhoo

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2026, 09:42:38 AM »
+1 Thanks HondaMan. I wish I would've known about the advance springs when my 350F was still on the road. Instead I just lived with the occasional hanging revs when pulling up to a stop.
1972 CB350F (Back from the Dead!)- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=20822.0
1965? S65 - Coming Eventually!
1972 CB750K2 (father-son project)
1976 CB750K6- (sold) http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=96859.0
1976 CB750K6 (sold)- http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=62569.0

Offline MauiK3

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2026, 09:54:11 AM »
https://yamiya750.com/en/collections/contact-breaker-spark-advancer?page=2

Yamiya lists these racing springs, out of stock right now. I wonder how well they work. Racing meaning earlier advance?
1973 CB 750 K3
10/72 build Z1 Kawasaki

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2026, 10:24:58 AM »
https://yamiya750.com/en/collections/contact-breaker-spark-advancer?page=2

Yamiya lists these racing springs, out of stock right now. I wonder how well they work. Racing meaning earlier advance?

I don't know what they would be today. In the 1970s they were longer springs (more coils) and came in several 'strengths'. Dragracers always went for the fastest advance, it seemed, while [we] roadracers went for stronger springs because it improved the wrap-up to mid-RPM with "hotter" roadrace cams (i.e. longer-duration, not usually higher lift) and let the engines still brake in gear, which helped on the short tracks we had then. The "trip down" in RPM was at least as important as the "wrap up" in those races. The "wrap up" improvement came from the intake tracts not running too rich from overly-advanced spark that would fire the mixture left in the cylinders during overlap cycle and make it burn partway back toward the carbs before the next intake stroke began. This happens in all the SOHC4 engines to some extent: the idea it to make it not so much that it causes a low-torque low-end RPM - especially on the smaller bores!
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2026, 10:29:24 AM »
+1 Thanks HondaMan. I wish I would've known about the advance springs when my 350F was still on the road. Instead I just lived with the occasional hanging revs when pulling up to a stop.

I am just now [trying to, in between other engines] rebuilding my long-awaited CB350F, too! The springs in the spark advancer were so heat-sacked when I looked at it in December that it would not pull the points cam back to idle when sitting on my workbench, by itself. That's some serious softening. :(

I cut off 1 full turn from both springs, then another 1/2 turn from both after not being happy with how it returned even then. We'll see how that works out after I get the kickstart shaft's new inner hole fixed up (so I can reassemble the engine). Someone actually cracked open the inner boss that is the bearing for the kickstarter shaft, can't figure out how he did that?
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2026, 10:36:05 AM »
I'm having a bit of the same issue, kinda. What should the carbs pull in inHG for a idle setting? I have found that if I'm and doing a sync. the Idle will hang if I run the sync screws up and the low idle screw does nothing. I then run the sync screws in until it dies. At This point the low idle screw works again. It's been 10 years since I played with the carbs. I pulled mine and set the floats at 22-23mm. Runs good but I dont know the base setting for the carbs ??

 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0
https://youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0?si=yo_Gcl5J6PwiTQAI

Sadly, the actual vacuum NUMBER (in-hg or similar) is unique to the type of gage you use, and how it is damped (or not). Honda's old manuals showed an in/Hg number for their factory gages, but no one else ever had those: even Honda's own tools for the shops were different from theirs. So, I've not seen any actual numbers except those on the gages I used at the time.

Getting them all pretty close is one step: getting the engine to settle down is the FIRST step, though. With today's slow-burning gasolines (made so they light off catalytic convertors) our modern Regular burns at a rate actually slower than 1970s Premium did, so any 'numbers' seen in old manuals are not applicable now. This makes for lower vacuum numbers in most situations, at least with my [old] gages. I can "see" a little lower number at 1100 RPM (CB750 numbers here) if the bike I'm working on has Premium gas in it (compared to a similar SOHC4 with Regular in it), so I know this is still an issue.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2026, 05:59:18 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline MDW

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2026, 05:45:48 PM »
Thanks again HondaMan. On the mixture screw, I am running it at about 2 turns out. I will see what happens if I reduce that to say 1.5 turns. How much of a difference, if any, does the ambient air temperature matter when making this adjustment? Thanks

Offline HondaMan

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2026, 06:35:46 PM »
Thanks again HondaMan. On the mixture screw, I am running it at about 2 turns out. I will see what happens if I reduce that to say 1.5 turns. How much of a difference, if any, does the ambient air temperature matter when making this adjustment? Thanks

The ambient temperature, in my experience, doesn't matter as much as the altitude. For example, when I lived in the flatlands I used Honda's "factory" settings for these bikes, but when I came to Colorado (6000 feet up here) I found that most of the bikes needed between 1/8 and 1/4 turn inward on the screws to lean them out acceptably, lest their sparkplugs foul in city traffic.

That said: the float depth in the carbs can change this, if it isn't at the Honda Manual's level(s). If deeper, the screw must go IN, if shallower, OUT to make up the difference. One really good example of this comes from the 'round top' CB750 carbs made between 1972 and 1976 "K" model bikes (of which there are MANY out there): in stock configuration with stock 26mm deep float bowls at 5000+ feet altitude, the normal idle-mix screw setting of 1.0 turns out will start fouling plugs in about 25 miles of 30 MPH-is travel. By 100 miles they will be black. Turning the screw in to 7/8 turn will reduce this to about 250 miles of such travel, while running about 10 miles on hiway at 55+ MPH will clean them back off pretty well. Going in to 3/4 turn will greatly extend the plug life, usually to a whole season, or two, of riding. The tradeoff, because these carbs are extremely simple mixers, is in low-speed performance: between 1000 and 1250 RPM (approximately) there is a 'flat spot', so keeping the revs up becomes a necessity. This one "feature" of the early 750 setup is what many riders get/got tired of, usually for not adjusting the carbs suitably, parking their bike.

One prime example of the early 750 type is my own 750K2, an early one: at 26mm float bowl levels the throttle is a little 'flat' until about 2200 RPM. At 25mm it feels more like a 750K0/1, pulling strong from 1500 RPM in comparison. At 24mm, if I can tolerate the slight fuel weeping along the front edges of the float bowls, there is no flat spot at all. But - at 25mm the plug life becomes 1 season, while at 24mm I will have to clean them at least once that season, and at 26mm they will go 2 seasons before needing attention. In typical commuter riding I would put on between 6000 and 9000 miles each year, depending on how often I got to ride into the mountains. In all cases, keeping the running RPM up improves plug life: I seldom run below 3500 RPM unless in 1st gear, and usually am at 4000+. Not everyone wants to ride these bikes that way, though.

In the era of the PD carbs (starting in 1976 model year "F" bikes and 550cc or smaller ones) the carbs appeared to meet those nasty new emissions laws (tailpipe sniffs), which brought in the 4-1 exhausts in to make this testing easier. Then, the mixture had to be "not adjustable by unqualified persons" (I would have made that "personnel", but I only completed 5 years of college...), so the PD carbs added a "non-popping" air-like-adjusting screw downstream of the fixed mixtures of the press-in pilot jets to add in a touch of extra fuel if needed to tame the NOx emissions or reduce the tendency to 'pop' in the muffler when coasting on long downhill runs. In these carbs the range of adjustment is between 1 and 2 turns (depending on which carbs, and engine size) of effective range, outside of which there is no change. The fixed (pressed-in) pilot jets are leaner than in the roundtop carbs (sizes #37.5 or #35, vs. earlier #40) so the mixture is forcibly leaner. For that reason, the camshafts had to be reduced to 0 degrees intake valve opening (instead of the 5-10 degrees of the early bikes) so the bikes wouldn't fall flat on their face when the throttle is pulled. In the 750, since Honda already had 'type acceptance' approval of the engine from before emissions rules began, they could install (and did) an accelerator pump to improve that throttle-cracking movement stumble. In the 500/550 they weren't so lucky, as the rules hadn't type-accepted the 'new' 550 engine type prior to 1971.

But...in these later bikes with PD carbs (except for the CB750F/K versions) the intake runners on the bikes also become twice as long as in the 750. So, the "rules" we all learned with the 750 went out the window, but most of us didn't realize that (unless we raced, where it mattered more), so confusion began because of the mere fact that with each intake stroke of the smaller bikes, the engine is inhaling the PREVIOUS intake stroke's carb mixture, not the present one. This makes the mixture adjustment at idle speeds always "wet" in the shop/garage, requiring that after any adjustment, the bike must be taken out and run to at least cam-efficient speed (usually 4000+ RPM) to observe how the engine reacts to the change. It is virtually impossible to set them "by ear" in the garage and hit the road with an expected change unless you're also willing to take the screwdriver along, which can be a nuisance. Yet, that is exactly how I do it: I set them at the 'nominal' setting shown in the manual (if it is even SHOWN in the manual, some are not) and go out to flog the bike. Then I come back to read the brand-new sparkplugs to tell me the real story, and adjust from there. And, I do this after the vacuum-balance, because if adjusting the idle mixture between its MIN-MAX alters the vacuum up or down by more than a 0.1 reading, something else is wrong and needs to be corrected before the vacuum readings might be trusted to REALLY show engine performance.

And yeah - this can take all of a Saturday on a freshly-rebuilt engine, pretty quickly. ;)
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline thirsty 1

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Re: 400/4 sticking rpms
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2026, 07:41:59 PM »
I'm having a bit of the same issue, kinda. What should the carbs pull in inHG for a idle setting? I have found that if I'm and doing a sync. the Idle will hang if I run the sync screws up and the low idle screw does nothing. I then run the sync screws in until it dies. At This point the low idle screw works again. It's been 10 years since I played with the carbs. I pulled mine and set the floats at 22-23mm. Runs good but I dont know the base setting for the carbs ??

 https://www.youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0
https://youtube.com/shorts/2Pixt9nk_n0?si=yo_Gcl5J6PwiTQAI

Sadly, the actual vacuum NUMBER (in-hg or similar) is unique to the type of gage you use, and how it is damped (or not). Honda's old manuals showed an in/Hg number for their factory gages, but no one else ever had those: even Honda's own tools for the shops were different from theirs. So, I've not seen any actual numbers except those on the gages I used at the time.

Getting them all pretty close is one step: getting the engine to settle down is the FIRST step, though. With today's slow-burning gasolines (made so they light off catalytic convertors) our modern Regular burns at a rate actually slower than 1970s Premium did, so any 'numbers' seen in old manuals are not applicable now. This makes for lower vacuum numbers in most situations, at least with my [old] gages. I can "see" a little lower number at 1100 RPM (CB750 numbers here) if the bike I'm working on has Premium gas in it (compared to a similar SOHC4 with Regular in it), so I know this is still an issue.

Thank You Mr. Hondaman! That makes sense since the tiny ports in tubes would be different for a variety of gauges. I'd like to also thank you for the ignition box I bought so long ago. It makes all the difference!!

I'll continue with my little project. @MDW sorry for side track I didn't want to start a new thread for a same kinda issue.
73' CL125, 75' CB400F, 16' KTM 1190R, 05' KTM 525EXC

75' CB400F  -  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=127295.0

My 79 CB750F for fun   ----   http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=19923.0