Author Topic: Pods Thread  (Read 137678 times)

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #175 on: October 29, 2007, 08:03:01 PM »
Alright, TSP, let's start with your assertions.  I'm afraid that most of your assertions are wrong, as is your conclusion.  It is these basic incorrect assumptions that have led you to the incorrect conclusion.

1.  The exhaust side is not decoupled in any way from the intake side, for reasons I've already explained in a prior post.  Exhaust backpressure causing higher pressures than necessary in the cylinder during the intake stroke is not a "residual effect", whether you "believe it" or not.  It is a very real effect that is exacerbated by the fact that the exhaust volume is MUCH GREATER than that of the intake charge (see your incorrect assertion #2).

2.  The MASS of the exhaust gases is EXACTLY THE SAME as the mass of the incoming charge.  This is due to the Law of Conservation of Matter.  The volume of exhaust gases, on the other hand, is MUCH GREATER than that of the intake charge.  This is because of the heat added by the release of the stored chemical energy in the fuel, much like charge from the powder in a bullet or the gases released from a solid-fuel rocket.  This is exactly how the engine converts the chemical energy stored in the fuel into the torque used to move the vehicle.

3.  The oxygen content in the exhaust gases is much lower than in the intake charge, regardless of how rich or lean the mixture is in the intake.  If the intake charge was close enough to stoichiometric to combust, then most of the oxygen in the charge will be consumed by combustion.  This essentially-inert exhaust gas displaces much of the possible intake charge if backpressure is too high.

TSP, please allow me to reassure you that I'm not pulling this out of my @$$.  I have done some homework on this subject.

[edited to address TSP and hopefully avoid confusion]

Let's try again, starting with the my first assertion:

The exhaust system has no effect on the jetting on an SOHC4.  The exhaust side is decoupled from the intake by virtue of the nature of the four-stroke engine.  Furthermore, the mass of the residual exhaust gases is small in comparison to the incoming charge, and the mass of residual oxygen or HC is smaller yet.  The residual exhaust gas has no significant effect on the incoming fuel-to-air ratio.

« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 08:44:48 PM by edbikerii »
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Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #176 on: October 29, 2007, 08:12:03 PM »
Let's try again, starting with the my first assertion:
  The exhaust side is decoupled from the intake by virtue of the nature of the four-stroke engine. 

I'm confused...is it decoupled or not? Also....simply...how do explain such large HP gains in modern bikes secondary to the installation of a good pipe and a fuel map. Even stock bikes without map changes pick up HP and torque....you can see this in Sport Rider, Motorcyclist etc. time and time again. And...let me add.....even carb equipped bikes with poor atomization during the 90's. This includes a test Performance Bikes did using about 10 slip on's around 1996 on one stock CBR600.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 08:21:04 PM by MRieck »
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Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #177 on: October 29, 2007, 08:28:04 PM »
Alright, let's start with your assertions.  I'm afraid that most of your assertions are wrong, as is your conclusion.  It is these basic incorrect assumptions that have led you to the incorrect conclusion.
I baselined my Hayabusa on the same dyno over a number of months with incremental changes. I also did the same on a 2001 CBR929. The addition of a quality pipe, each 1,200.00 dollar units, and some airbox/filter mods picked up approximately 12 HP on both bikes. Head porting, head surfacing and, in my case small Yosh drop in cams, resulted in an additional 30 HP over stock (on the busa).
« Last Edit: October 29, 2007, 08:30:54 PM by MRieck »
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #178 on: October 29, 2007, 08:39:53 PM »
Um, Mike, I wasn't talking about your assertions!  I quoted TSP's assertions in that post.  I was indicating that most, if not all of TSP's assertions are wrong.  You, on the other hand, are right on the mark!

Alright, let's start with your assertions.  I'm afraid that most of your assertions are wrong, as is your conclusion.  It is these basic incorrect assumptions that have led you to the incorrect conclusion.
I baselined my Hayabusa on the same dyno over a number of months with incremental changes. I also did the same on a 2001 CBR929. The addition of a quality pipe, each 1,200.00 dollar units, and some airbox/filter mods picked up approximately 12 HP on both bikes. Head porting, head surfacing and, in my case small Yosh drop in cams, resulted in an additional 30 HP over stock (on the busa).
SOHC4 #289
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Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #179 on: October 29, 2007, 08:41:07 PM »
Um, Mike, I wasn't talking about your assertions!  I quoted TSP's assertions in that post.  I was indicating that most, if not all of TSP's assertions are wrong.  You, on the other hand, are right on the mark!

Alright, let's start with your assertions.  I'm afraid that most of your assertions are wrong, as is your conclusion.  It is these basic incorrect assumptions that have led you to the incorrect conclusion.
I baselined my Hayabusa on the same dyno over a number of months with incremental changes. I also did the same on a 2001 CBR929. The addition of a quality pipe, each 1,200.00 dollar units, and some airbox/filter mods picked up approximately 12 HP on both bikes. Head porting, head surfacing and, in my case small Yosh drop in cams, resulted in an additional 30 HP over stock (on the busa).
I sincerely apologize....my mistake sir.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #180 on: October 29, 2007, 08:46:37 PM »
Sorry, Mike, my fault.  I went back and modified my earlier post to address TSP directly and hopefully avoid further confusion.

Um, Mike, I wasn't talking about your assertions!  I quoted TSP's assertions in that post.  I was indicating that most, if not all of TSP's assertions are wrong.  You, on the other hand, are right on the mark!

Alright, let's start with your assertions.  I'm afraid that most of your assertions are wrong, as is your conclusion.  It is these basic incorrect assumptions that have led you to the incorrect conclusion.
I baselined my Hayabusa on the same dyno over a number of months with incremental changes. I also did the same on a 2001 CBR929. The addition of a quality pipe, each 1,200.00 dollar units, and some airbox/filter mods picked up approximately 12 HP on both bikes. Head porting, head surfacing and, in my case small Yosh drop in cams, resulted in an additional 30 HP over stock (on the busa).
I sincerely apologize....my mistake sir.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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Offline tsp37

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #181 on: October 30, 2007, 06:03:18 PM »
Ed, MR, nothing that you have stated since my last post contrdicts anything that I have said nor does it address my claim that changing the exhaust should have no bearing on the jets in the carburetor.

Yes, you can gain net horsepower with a different exhaust system.  Yes, you can gain horsepower by making the intake more free flowing.  And to take full advantage of improved intake, you need a more free flowing exhaust.

Mlinder offered his personal experience to contradict my claim - he drilled holes in baffles to open the exhaust and found that he was running lean afterwards.  His experience is inconsistent with what I know and understand, otherwise I would not have an issue.

For me, the issue has become a dead horse to kick.  If I hear or read of something that supports or discredits my claim conclusively, I will post it here.  Until then, keep both tires on the road and enjoy the ride.
 

Offline 754

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #182 on: October 30, 2007, 06:12:32 PM »
My take, if it did not run leaner nothing happened.. but by it running leaner, he can jet richer which should result in more power. That what I have found.

My first 750 I ran a header without rejetting for a while, when I did I could finally run a lot closer to my buddies bike which had always been quicker.

 Which lasted about 2 or 3 days, then we ran into each other, totalling both bikes..
« Last Edit: October 30, 2007, 07:53:25 PM by 754 »
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Offline ekim98

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #183 on: October 30, 2007, 07:39:21 PM »
Sounds like tsp37 doesn't want to play any more, I guess you guy's didn't give him the answers he wanted/needed. Or maybe he needs to rejet his assertions!  ::)
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #184 on: October 30, 2007, 08:38:39 PM »
Yeah, but I'm glad TSP asked the question.  It caused me to go back and re-think some things that I just take for granted after all these years.

Sounds like tsp37 doesn't want to play any more, I guess you guy's didn't give him the answers he wanted/needed. Or maybe he needs to rejet his assertions!  ::)
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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Offline ekim98

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #185 on: October 30, 2007, 09:12:37 PM »
Yeah, but I'm glad TSP asked the question.  It caused me to go back and re-think some things that I just take for granted after all these years.

I'm not saying he didn't ask some good guestions, but he did seem to make it sound like rejetting just because you put a less restrictive exhaust and/or pods on was not necessary. Don't get me wrong I got my bike to run after I put the pods and 4 into 1 exhaust on,but it wasn't worth starting up. And trying to ride it was a joke. Like you, MRieck and several others that know something about motors and performance were all wrong and it didn't matter what anyone said. Some people can't see the forest thru the trees, I guess.   
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Offline paulages

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #186 on: October 30, 2007, 11:40:27 PM »
i'm all for analytical thinking, but when the rubber hits the road, you can tell a difference when you now your bike well. TSP, i can appreciate your reasoning, but you seem to cop out when others contradict you. i have two exhausts i run on my bike. one is a 1.5" straight pipe with a slip in glass packed baffle, which end up being a but restrictive, probably somewhat similar to the stock muffler. the other (which ended up on the side of a mountain road recently), is the same size of the collector I.D. (2.25" i believe), and is also wrapped in glass. the latter is obviously much more free-flowing, but much more importantly, causes a much leaner condition. it's great at WOT, but suffer in the low end. i just want to know how you explain that.

to clarify: the concept of exhaust variance and jetting is in question here, not whether such a change can be tuned to a benefit. i'll say again: to say that a change in exhaust doesn't have an impact on air/fuel mixture says that you've spent more time in the textbook than on the road and and in the garage. seriously, try taking your muffler off alone and see what happens.
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Offline nteek754

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #187 on: October 31, 2007, 05:36:21 AM »
Hey there, Mcpuffett  I would  definetly say  exhaust and like someone else said maybe the pods would of done as goos if not better cause in the long run you tune it to the poda   IT WILL BE BETTER good luck

Jimx and crispduk got it right  have fun Craig in Maine
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #188 on: October 31, 2007, 03:41:40 PM »
Lest readers become further mislead by unsubstantiated assertions, I offer the following rebuttal.

Let's try again, starting with the my first assertion:

The exhaust system has no effect on the jetting on an SOHC4.  The exhaust side is decoupled from the intake by virtue of the nature of the four-stroke engine. 

Aside from the lack of support or in depth rationale given these statements, *I* assert that you are wrong on both counts.  The former is a conclusion based on no evidence or, perhaps, total conjecture.  The later is outright false.

The four stroke engine does not have 4 static events.  It has four dynamic interactive events, none of which work in isolation.  Further, the cam timing is what determines the level of interaction.  Using the early CB750 as and example, look at the cam timing beginning with the exhaust stroke.

Exhaust valve opens at 35 degrees BBDC.  (This is before the power stroke has even reached its full travel).  It closes 5 degrees ATDC.  Also, after the cycle has reached it's travel length.
The intake valve opens at 5 Degrees BTDC.  This is before the exhaust valve closes, so for a time, both valves are open at the same time.  This is overlap. (remember this for later)  And, it should be recognized, that interaction or "coupling" of the four stokes does indeed occur.

The engine is first and foremost an air pump.  At one RPM, the air on the intake and exhaust side of the valves goes through a cycle of stoppage and flow of the air mass, closely related to the valve position and movement of the piston.  Things change as the RPM increases, where air flow in the runners continue to move with momentum while the valves stop the air mass directly adjacent to the valves.  A more positive pressure builds on the back of the intake valve, and a negative pressure builds on the back of the exhaust valve, due to inertia. (assumes open exhaust runner for the moment).  If both valves are open at the same time, these pressures become interactive.

Now, let's leave the intake runner alone, and change exhaust characteristics only (reverse shock wave, canister pressure, etc.). This will effect the negative pressure on the back of the exhaust valve, including the volume and density of fresh charge from the intake path while both valves are open.

If you change the density of the air mass entering the cylinder, the amount of oxygen in the charge changes and so must the amount of fuel for proper combustion, thus, a change in jetting.  This is not to say all header and exhaust changes require re-jetting. But, certainly ones that effect the intake to exhaust dynamic, will.

While only mere words, I think this explanation coincides with what engine tuners have experienced in practice, that changing the exhaust systems often effects mixture requirements fed the engine.

Even if you do retort with insults to my mother, even in her grave, I believe she would know you were wrong, both in engine theory, and selection of insults.  But, I will admit she was equally opinionated.  :P

For me, the issue has become a dead horse to kick.   
Kicking a dead horse applies to when the horse was once actually alive.  In this case, I believe it was still born, if actully conceived at all.  It only seemed alive for a bit because of all the people with sticks poking at it.  But, I'm putting my stick down now.  I've got some jets to clean...




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #189 on: October 31, 2007, 06:22:35 PM »
 I thought I asked about reversion earlier?
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Offline tsp37

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #190 on: October 31, 2007, 06:26:13 PM »
This guy must be right, 'cause I found it on the internet:

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-jetting.html

He doesn't offer much on the why's and why-not's, but it's nice to know that I'm not alone.

Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #191 on: October 31, 2007, 06:49:29 PM »
I thought I asked about reversion earlier?

Yes, I noticed.  But, i thought I would expound upon it for those without deaf ears, or impaired vision.  ;D

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline tsp37

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #192 on: October 31, 2007, 06:56:02 PM »
I have only noted that the emporer has no clothes.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/russwolf/faqs.html

To wit:
"
My dealer/vendor says that I have to rejet if I change exhaust systems.

Not so. Rejetting is necessary when the air/fuel mixture is radically upset; changing the exhaust side of the equation from OEM to a performance aftermarket system doesn't do this. This change does allow exhaust gases to be scavenged out more quickly, paving the way for other performance upgrades, such as a less restrictive airbox (which will require rejetting.)
"

Offline MRieck

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #193 on: October 31, 2007, 07:31:33 PM »
I have only noted that the empire has no clothes.

http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/russwolf/faqs.html

To wit:
"
My dealer/vendor says that I have to rejet if I change exhaust systems.

Not so. Rejetting is necessary when the air/fuel mixture is radically upset; changing the exhaust side of the equation from OEM to a performance aftermarket system doesn't do this. This change does allow exhaust gases to be scavenged out more quickly, paving the way for other performance upgrades, such as a less restrictive airbox (which will require rejetting.)
"

Well....I kinda agree. The A/F is very loose when it comes to what will "run" vs. what is optimum.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #194 on: October 31, 2007, 07:37:07 PM »
This guy must be right, 'cause I found it on the internet:

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-jetting.html

He doesn't offer much on the why's and why-not's, but it's nice to know that I'm not alone.

I guess we're selecting only those words we are predisposed to believe?

That's Mike Nixon's site.  He began by explaining how Honda delivered bikes that were tuned slightly rich.  He did NOT say jetting wasn't effected by exhaust changes.  What he said was that most exhaust changes either corrected for the too rich setting or made no difference, as the exhaust flow was equivalent to or worse than stock.  Weight savings made the bike feel faster. And a dyno test was where you either found a correction to the new set up needed, or not.

He does not say, "The exhaust system has no effect on the jetting on an SOHC4.  The exhaust side is decoupled from the intake by virtue of the nature of the four-stroke engine."

I have only noted that the emporer has no clothes
More likely the audience has no eyes or will to use them.
It's clear you are grasping at straws, and NOT grasping the concept, not do you have any desire to do so. 
The Vulcan is a low RPM engine with a 5000-ish RPM redline and most operation in an RPM band slightly above idle for an SOHC4.  There may well be no overlap in the cam timing on these bikes and air pressure and velocity in the runners are vastly different.  Do you Know?  Do you care?  I suspect not if it doesn't support your theory.
Probably wouldn't need to rejet the main on an SOHC4 either if you kept the RPM below 3000.  As, it isn't doing much at that throttle setting.

This is just too silly to continue...


Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: pods v standard air box.
« Reply #195 on: October 31, 2007, 08:17:26 PM »
I'm sorry, TSP, but it seems you only hear what you want to hear.  You've heard from some of the most talented engine builders, tuners and engineers around here including Mike Reick, TwoTired and others, plus Mike Nixon clearly states that properly designed exhaust systems will require richer mixture (read his 6th paragraph again, carefully), yet you insist on arguing "assertions" that contradict what everyone is telling you.

Yes, Nixon has an excellent site and he has presented some interesting discussion.  I would not be surprised if exhaust "designers" like Vance & Hines and Bub don't take horsepower into consideration at all.  Buyers in some markets only care about making noise anyway.  However, Mike N. has completely ignored the most basic factor in performance exhaust system design, EXCESSIVE BACKPRESSURE caused by simple flow restriction(s) like muffler baffles.  Many stock exhaust systems' outlets have a smaller cross-sectional area than the combined exhaust ports.  Right off the bat, many performance exhausts designed for sportbikes have a huge flow advantage.

Try reading that book on Scientific Exhaust System Design.  While Nixon's website is good, I can assure you that the book is much more thorough and accurate, especially with respect to the wave phenomena that Nixon dismisses as "a bit complicated", and "not well proven outside the 2-stroke world".  That is simply not true.  The book discusses these phenomona very thoroughly, and professional performance exhaust designers understand these things very well.  Heck, the book was written in what, 1973?

Also, Nixon's notion of a 3% "rich margin" on the main jet just doesn't apply to every model, or even model year, sold by every manufacturer.  On the EPA-strangled 77-78 CB750K and CB550K (AKA lean-burn carburetors), for instance, Honda clearly erred on the lean side with the main jets as well as the idle mixture, causing all sorts of problems like overheating in traffic, heat-related o-ring failures (at the cylinder head mating surface) and heat-related valve seal failures.

This guy must be right, 'cause I found it on the internet:

http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-jetting.html

He doesn't offer much on the why's and why-not's, but it's nice to know that I'm not alone.
SOHC4 #289
1977 CB550K - SOLD
1997 YAMAHA XJ600S - SOLD
1986 GL1200I - SOLD
2004 BMW R1150R

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possum2082

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will these pods fit?
« Reply #196 on: January 11, 2008, 06:00:28 AM »
i just read http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29437.0 about normal 39mm pods not fitting a 500/550 frame.

does anyone know if these from z1 will work:http://www.z1enterprises.com/detail.aspx?ID=222
they said that some mod to side covers is required.  not really sure how they would get in the way.

got a 76550k engine in a 74 cb500 frame.

thanks.


Offline wizzy

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Re: will these pods fit?
« Reply #197 on: January 11, 2008, 06:34:42 AM »
I have pods that look from the pic to be very simular in size and shape they fit carb 2&3 realy awesome but i ran into fitment issues with the close-ness of the frame by the side covers and no matter what shape i dented them to it still would not work so this is what i did.
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: will these pods fit?
« Reply #198 on: January 11, 2008, 08:18:53 AM »
Possum,

I've seen them on several 500's, without any exeption those in the #1 and #4 position distorted.
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possum2082

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Re: will these pods fit?
« Reply #199 on: January 11, 2008, 09:38:24 AM »
thanks for all the input.  looks like i'm going to have to get the little ones from crc.