Topic: American Gestapo

[Cvillechopper]

The police had no right to be in her house.  Mandatory evacuation should be illegal.  If I want to stay and risk my own life, so be it.  I don't support going in to rescue the people that dismiss a recommendation to evacuate either.  Let the idiots drown.  Natural selection.

Oh, why we're not on the subject... it's a crime how the justice dept completely threw out contractual laws and made the insurance companies pay for stuff for which the coverage was never purchased.  Contract says you got no coverage, government says, "they need money, give it to them".  If I were statefarm/ Allstate, etc. I'd have refused and taken it to a higher court.  This country is so simple about these types of things allowing emotion to take the place of logic. 
A human life is not worth the 50 risked to save it.  Anyone ever see Star Trek... I mean seriously, the good of the many.  Logic.  What a concept...

[edbikerii]

Oh, so you're fine with government-imposed martial law when the government's own incompetence and negligence has caused thousands of homes to be flooded due to a poorly designed and maintained levy system, but you'll #$%* and moan about the government spying on potential terrorists under the "patriot act" after our nation has been attacked by a complex, well trained, global terrorist organization.

Where, exactly, do you draw the line on Freedom?

Furthermore, explain the two contractors who asked for receipts, and were refused, when their legal weapons were confiscated.  Based on my experience, criminal looters don't ask for receipts for their guns.  Also, criminals are generally not released without prosecution after the police confiscate their guns.  Obviously, they did manage to get their guns back, which further indicates that they pursued the matter with higher authorities later, and were vindicated.  Lucky thing they weren't killed by the looters after the police disarmed them.

Well, Sorry Dan, but could you answer just one question for me?  What the hell were the police doing in her house in the first place?

It's clear they were trying to evacuate the area and she was refusing to cooperate.  People are pretty stupid when it comes to natural disasters.  It doesn't matter how much food you have if your house is under water.  People drowned in their attics because they refused to leave the disaster area.

So then she "showed them the revolver she was holding carefully in her palm".  Yeah, when police are in my house I'm sure as hell not gonna "show them" a revolver and wave it around like she was.  And they "punched her in the face" while saying, "Relax, maam, just relax"?  Yeah, right.  It looks to me like they tackled her in the corner because she was waving a freakin gun around.  It's just one biased side of the story, just as all of the people they interviewed were heavily biased.  I'm sure if you asked the police what happened they would give you a completely different story.  And I dunno, I tend to trust the word of a police officer more than I trust the word of an 80 year old uncooperative gun nut.

NRA propaganda, my friend.  I'm sure it was even featured on the No Spin Zone at some point.

[Chris Schneiter]

Ya know, yesterday, I found myself defending my stance and like minded people. I don't have to. My opinion is that I am right in my conviction that these people are criminally responsible for many of the things that have happened to our country in recent years. I don't like these people, and I don't care that others may have not been as clean as I might like to think. All I know is that for my entire adult life, every time a Republican stepped into office, my life headed into the crapper. Every time a Democrat has been in office, my life seemed to get better.
My Dad always was a fehiment Republican until he retired. All of a sudden, he was on the other end of the economic equasion and felt the hurt. He is now an ardent Democrat.

[edbikerii]

Well, there you have it then, Chris.

You've said all that needs to be said.

Good luck

Ya know, yesterday, I found myself defending my stance and like minded people. I don't have to. My opinion is that I am right in my conviction that these people are criminally responsible for many of the things that have happened to our country in recent years. I don't like these people, and I don't care that others may have not been as clean as I might like to think. All I know is that for my entire adult life, every time a Republican stepped into office, my life headed into the crapper. Every time a Democrat has been in office, my life seemed to get better.
My Dad always was a fehiment Republican until he retired. All of a sudden, he was on the other end of the economic equasion and felt the hurt. He is now an ardent Democrat.

[oldfordguy]

The lady is 80 years old, why the hell does she have a gun in her hand when the police come into the house?

Because she obviously needed it to protect herself from both thugs and police.  This is precisely why I have bought so many assault rifles myself, for protection from the police.  What I can't figure out is why these people didn't have their weapons at the ready, and give these thugs (can't call them LEO's because they were breaking the law, not the citizens) 1 warning to leave them alone.  I know our local law enforcement quite well (went to school with a lot of them,) and they know better than to try and confiscate my guns.  My family lives by the adage "you can have my guns when you peel my cold dead finger off the trigger," and they know it.  This country has become filled with people who will not take any responsibility for anything, including their own safety.  They do not deserve freedom & liberty, because they refuse to fulfill their obligation to society to be responsible for the safety of their family and neighbors.  Free people do not recognize "marial law."

[mrbreeze]

Ya know, yesterday, I found myself defending my stance and like minded people. I don't have to. My opinion is that I am right in my conviction that these people are criminally responsible for many of the things that have happen (ed to our country in recent years. I don't like these people, and I don't care that others may have not been as clean as I might like to think. All I know is that for my entire adult life, every time a Republican stepped into office, my life headed into the crapper. Every time a Democrat has been in office, my life seemed to get better.
My Dad always was a fehiment Republican until he retired. All of a sudden, he was on the other end of the economic equasion and felt the hurt. He is now an ardent Democrat.

     uuuuuhhhhhh rah!!!!!!!!! I made that same assesment back in the 80's when the famous actor Ronnie decided to be the leader of our great country. When will these f$#-kin moron Repubs see it and get with the program ............as always...just my opinion!!!!

[Terry in Australia]

Free people do not recognize "marital law."

I hear you brother! (you dropped a "t", so I put it back in for you) 

[DammitDan]

The old lady needed to protect herself from police?  Oh jeeze, here we go.

This country has become filled with people who will not take any responsibility for anything, including their own safety.

I was under the distinct impression that she was acting with complete disregard for her own safety.  She was refusing to leave the site of a natural disaster.  An area contaminated with raw sewage in the streets, with no clean drinking water, looters running around and random murders happening everywhere.  Only an idiot (or someone with a death wish) would try to stay and "defend their property" from looters.  Either that or someone who's looking to murder another person.  Besides, isn't that property generally protected by insurance?  How responsible is it NOT to listen to police in that situation?

they refuse to fulfill their obligation to society to be responsible for the safety of their family and neighbors.

Funny, I thought vigilantism was illegal in every civilized society, and for good reason.  I guess I'm alone in the fact that I would rather have a police officer patrolling the streets and keeping order than a roving band of NRA card carrying gun nuts.  I dunno, something about that idea just brings the term "lynch mob" to mind.  Doling out "justice" one execution at a time.

Free people do not recognize "martial law."

It's a pretty clever quote until you actually look at the meat of it.  Complete lack of government control results in anarchy.  Martial Law maintains strict order in the absence of government and prevents said anarchy.  It may be a personal opinion, but I would rather have incredibly strict rules over no rules at all.  A "free society" where there are no rules scares the #$%* out of me.  It means there are no consequences for your actions, and where there are no consequences it seems personal morality also goes out the window. 

Regardless of how many guns you may have, it doesn't change the fact that police are there to protect you.  And when you are presenting a threat, they're there to protect society from YOU.  I consider stockpiling weapons for the purpose of preparing for anarchy a threat to society.  This is why the Branch Davidians were confronted, it's why those people got into a shootout on Ruby Ridge, and it's why the abuses of the Second Amendment need to stop.

[Cvillechopper]

This country has become filled with people who will not take any responsibility for anything, including their own safety.

I was under the distinct impression that she was acting with complete disregard for her own safety.  She was refusing to leave the site of a natural disaster.  An area contaminated with raw sewage in the streets, with no clean drinking water, looters running around and random murders happening everywhere.  Only an idiot (or someone with a death wish) would try to stay and "defend their property" from looters.  Either that or someone who's looking to murder another person.  Besides, isn't that property generally protected by insurance?  How responsible is it NOT to listen to police in that situation?

they refuse to fulfill their obligation to society to be responsible for the safety of their family and neighbors.

Funny, I thought vigilantism was illegal in every civilized society, and for good reason.  I guess I'm alone in the fact that I would rather have a police officer patrolling the streets and keeping order than a roving band of NRA card carrying gun nuts.  I dunno, something about that idea just brings the term "lynch mob" to mind.  Doling out "justice" one execution at a time.

Free people do not recognize "martial law."

It's a pretty clever quote until you actually look at the meat of it.  Complete lack of government control results in anarchy.  Martial Law maintains strict order in the absence of government and prevents said anarchy.  It may be a personal opinion, but I would rather have incredibly strict rules over no rules at all.  A "free society" where there are no rules scares the #$%* out of me.  It means there are no consequences for your actions, and where there are no consequences it seems personal morality also goes out the window. 

Regardless of how many guns you may have, it doesn't change the fact that police are there to protect you.  And when you are presenting a threat, they're there to protect society from YOU.  I consider stockpiling weapons for the purpose of preparing for anarchy a threat to society.  This is why the Branch Davidians were confronted, it's why those people got into a shootout on Ruby Ridge, and it's why the abuses of the Second Amendment need to stop.

Police are there to protect me from others, not from myself.  The government should not have the right to tell me I can't do something that might harm me if I knowingly accept the risk.  Should we outlaw motorcycles, skateboards, fast food, loud music and anything else that might put one in harms way to protect everyone from themselves? 

If someone I do not know comes into my house with a gun they will leave in a body bag, plain and simple.  I don't see that as vigilantism.  I see it as prudent protection of my family.  If they didn't want to risk getting killed, they should not have threatened my family with death.  I have absolutely no pity for these idiot parents trying (and unfortunately sometimes succeeding) to sue the person that killed their son/daughter when their kid was trying to kill them.  You threaten me with deadly force, you get the same in return.  Not my fault if you get hurt.  I didn't make you threaten me.

[DammitDan]

I apologize, I made a mistake...  Police do not protect and serve the people, they protect and serve the law.  They are not there to protect you.  They are there to intercept those who break the law.  If you are a victim of the one breaking the law, then they will interject on your behalf (though it's not your right to try and do the job yourself...)  And if you're on the wrong side of that law, then they will be going after you.

It's not their job to protect the victim of crime, it's their job to find and gather evidence and arrest those that commit the crime.  If you get in the way of that process, then you become an accessory to the crime and they will deal with you, harshly if it comes to it.

[Cvillechopper]

It's not their job to protect the victim of crime, it's their job to find and gather evidence and arrest those that commit the crime. 

Which means it is left up to the individual to protect themselves from the crime, right?  If the police aren't there to protect, than they have no reason coming into my house until I've committed a crime and they have evidence with which to prove it. 
You're not suggesting that the police are there to not protect me from others but they are there to protect me from myself in the case of an emergency are you?  There's no consistency in the arguement.

[firecracker]

Please believe me when I say that I am not trying to change your mind.

I may disagree with you, but I believe everyone has a right to their opinion.  I only ask that you allow me the freedom to follow my own beliefs.

I think this thread has caused too much arguing, and not enough attempts at understanding.

As such, I offer this story in an effort to explain my point of view:





The Parable of the Sheep
By Charles Riggs

Not so long ago and in a pasture too uncomfortably close to here, a flock of sheep lived and grazed. They were protected by a dog, who answered to the master, but despite his best efforts from time to time a nearby pack of wolves would prey upon the flock.

One day a group of sheep, bolder than the rest, met to discuss their dilemma. "Our dog is good, and vigilant, but he is one and the wolves are many. The wolves he catches are not always killed, and the master judges and releases many to prey again upon us, for no reason we can understand. What can we do? We are sheep, but we do not wish to be food, too!"

One sheep spoke up, saying "It is his teeth and claws that make the wolf so terrible to us. It is his nature to prey, and he would find any way to do it, but it is the tools he wields that make it possible. If we had such teeth, we could fight back, and stop this savagery." The other sheep clamored in agreement, and they went together to the old bones of the dead wolves heaped in the corner of the pasture, and gathered fang and claw and made them into weapons.

That night, when the wolves came, the newly armed sheep sprang up with their weapons and struck at them, crying, "Begone! We are not food!" and drove off the wolves, who were astonished. When did sheep become so bold and so dangerous to wolves? When did sheep grow teeth? It was unthinkable!
The next day, flush with victory and waving their weapons, they approached the flock to pronounce their discovery. But as they drew nigh, the flock huddled together and cried out, "Baaaaaaaadddd! Baaaaaddd things! You have bad things! We are afraid! You are not sheep!"

The brave sheep stopped, amazed. "But we are your brethren!" they cried. "We are still sheep, but we do not wish to be food. See, our new teeth and claws protect us and have saved us from slaughter. They do not make us into wolves, they make us equal to the wolves, and safe from their viciousness!"
"Baaaaaaad!" cried the flock, "the things are bad and will pervert you, and we fear them. You cannot bring them into the flock!" So the armed sheep resolved to conceal their weapons, for although they had no desire to panic the flock, they wished to remain in the fold. But they would not return to those nights of terror, waiting for the wolves to come.

In time, the wolves attacked less often and sought easier prey, for they had no stomach for fighting sheep who possessed tooth and claw even as they did. Not knowing which sheep had fangs and which did not, they came to leave sheep out of their diet almost completely except for the occasional raid, from which more than one wolf did not return.

Then came the day when, as the flock grazed beside the stream, one sheep’s weapon slipped from the folds of her fleece, and the flock cried out in terror again, "Baaaaaad! You still possess these evil things! We must ban you from our presence!"

And so they did. The great chief sheep and his council, encouraged by the words of their advisors, placed signs and totems at the edges of the pasture forbidding the presence of hidden weapons there. The armed sheep protested before the council, saying, "It is our pasture, too, and we have never harmed you! When can you say we have caused you hurt? It is the wolves, not we, who prey upon you. We are still sheep, but we are not food!" But the flock drowned them out with cries of "Baaaaaaddd! We will not hear your clever words! You and your things are evil and will harm us!"

Saddened by this rejection, the armed sheep moved off and spent their days on the edges of the flock, trying from time to time to speak with their brethren to convince them of the wisdom of having such teeth, but meeting with little success. They found it hard to talk to those who, upon hearing their words, would roll back their eyes and flee, crying "Baaaaddd! Bad things!"

That night, the wolves happened upon the sheep’s totems and signs, and said, "Truly, these sheep are fools! They have told us they have no teeth! Brothers, let us feed!" And they set upon the flock, and horrible was the carnage in the midst of the fold. The dog fought like a demon, and often seemed to be in two places at once, but even he could not halt the slaughter.

It was only when the other sheep arrived with their weapons that the wolves fled, only to remain on the edge of the pasture and wait for the next time they could prey, for if the sheep were so foolish once, they would be so again. This they did, and do still.

In the morning, the armed sheep spoke to the flock, and said, "See? If the wolves know you have no teeth, they will fall upon you. Why be prey? To be a sheep does not mean to be food for wolves!" But the flock cried out, more feebly for their voices were fewer, though with no less terror, "Baaaaaaaad! These things are bad! If they were banished, the wolves would not harm us! Baaaaaaad!"

So they resolved to retain their weapons, but to conceal them from the flock; to endure their fear and loathing, and even to protect their brethren if the need arose, until the day the flock learned to understand that as long as there were wolves in the night, sheep would need teeth to repel them.

They would still be sheep, but they would not be food!

[Rocking-M]

I apologize, I made a mistake...  Police do not protect and serve the people, they protect and serve the law.  They are not there to protect you.  They are there to intercept those who break the law.  If you are a victim of the one breaking the law, then they will interject on your behalf (though it's not your right to try and do the job yourself...)  And if you're on the wrong side of that law, then they will be going after you.

It's not their job to protect the victim of crime, it's their job to find and gather evidence and arrest those that commit the crime.  If you get in the way of that process, then you become an accessory to the crime and they will deal with you, harshly if it comes to it.

Dam Dan, what dream world you live in. From this and above statements by you, you desire neither freedom nor security, and you'll get neither if your "utopia" of police who protect is realized...

[Terry in Australia]

Man, I loved that sheep story, it brought a tear to my eye when I realised that it wasn't just a story, but a clever "parable" of how us "gunners" think!

Here's a link to another one for some of the guys here who don't read or write so good, but still love the feel of a big gun in their hands!

http://www.cowswithguns.com/cowmovie.html

[firecracker]

Here's another song that always makes me laugh...

http://www.fugly.com/audio/588/Under_The_Scotsmans_Kilt.html


You have to hear the WHOLE song...   

[oldfordguy]

Dammit, Dan, you don't seem to understand what the term "vigilantism" means.  You are not a vigilante unless you have a crime committed against you, you find out who did it later, and then hunt them down and make them pay.  If you kill them in the act of committing the crime, it is self defense.  And in case you can't read the constitution (or comprehend it) it supports the people "stockpiling" weapons expressly for the purposes you seem to be against (tyrants, both foreign and domestic.)  It is a sad day indeed when a person who calls themselves an American refutes our founding fathers and the document they created for us, placing limits on government and thus securing our freedom.  You see, the 2nd Amendment to the United States Constitution is our #1 freedom, as it is the one that allows the others to exist at all.

By the way, I just knew Terry would like the sheep story!!

[DammitDan]

Alright, here's my view of the discussion.  Police are there to uphold and serve the law.  They only protect the victims of crimes insomuch as preventing that crime or stopping the criminal in the act, or arresting the criminal so he cannot do it to other people.  The job of protect and reparating the victims is supposed to be responsibility of the judiciary.  Punishment of the criminal (in criminal cases) and making them repay the victim for the injustice (in both criminal and civil cases) is ideally done by the courts.  Of course we know the system doesn't work that well because of all the frivilous lawsuits and torts that bog down the dockets.  But that doesn't change the fact that police are the ones who protect the law and serve it to the people.  "To protect and to serve" doesn't mean they're serving and protecting the PEOPLE but rather protecting (upholding) and serving (enforcing) the law.

I don't live in an idealized utopia world, I live in a country with a screwed up government system that's controlled more by corporate entities than by its' own people.  I would just like our government to work the way it's supposed to, set up for the people by the people.  Does that mean that every person should be allowed to own weapons?  Only if those people are so afraid of the government that they feel the need to collect those weapons.  I don't think we're that bad off.  Yet.

I personally have no problem with people owning guns, but I do have a problem with people collecting weapons.  There is a distinctive difference (except with shotguns, but then again I really like shotguns  ).

And you're thinking that our freedom to own weapons is the #1 freedom, over the freedom of speech, religion and assembly?  Hmm....  They have always said the pen is mightier than the sword.  I would rather express my opinion in speech than in bullets.  And I don't know where it says in the Constitution that we can "stockpile" weapons.  Once again it's a case of people interpreting the constitution to their own gain.

Oh, and I do understand completely the meaning of the word "vigilante": 

vig·i·lan·te       (v?j'?-l?n't?)  Pronunciation Key  n. 
One who takes or advocates the taking of law enforcement into one's own hands

You said earlier that it's the obligation of every American to "be responsible for the safety of their family and neighbors".  Not allowing police to take care of the law is vigilanteism.  Preventing a crime by committing violence is vigilanteism.  There's a fine line between murder in self-defense and murder outright.  If you shoot and kill the guy who's carrying a TV out of your house, then it's murder.  It's only self-defense when you're being directly threatened and fear for your life.

[Cvillechopper]

If I shoot and kill the guy carrying a TV out of my house, it's time to grab the shovels.   Truly, there must be a reasonable threat for violent reaction but I am not going to wait until the guy pulls the trigger before I do.  I will prevent him from committing the crime of shooting me (he's already committed one in being on my property with a weapon and intent) by rendering him immobile.  If that means he dies, so be it.  In fact, with the messed up system we have, it'd be better since if I just wounded him there'd probably be a lawsuit against me taking up more of the courts time with nonsense. 

[Bob Wessner]

Note to self: Call ahead when going visiting in Charlottesville.

[edbikerii]

If the pen were truly mightier than the sword, we'd be called "colonists" instead of Americans.

[Rocking-M]

If the pen were truly mightier than the sword, we'd be called "colonists" instead of Americans.

 


Oops, now we're sheep instead of Colonist! Right Dammit??

 

[DammitDan]

If the pen were truly mightier than the sword, we'd be called "colonists" instead of Americans.

So you're saying that instead of trying to change the broken down government we have now with debate and civil discussion (our First Amendment right), we should just all collect assault rifles and handguns and bazookas and topple the current regime with force?

Great...  20/20 hindsight comments like yours really do nothing to aid in the discussion.

I'll give ya one to think about:  If the atomic bomb had never been invented, then we would never have had a cold war. 

[edbikerii]

Thank you, Dan, but I can speak very plainly for myself.  There's no need to put foolish words into my mouth, young man.

Did I call for "toppling regimes"?  Did I say we should change the government we have now?  No.  Those were YOUR WORDS.  I'm quite happy with our form of government.  It is the best form of government that exists in the world today.

If we hadn't raised arms against our oppressors, we'd still be British subjects.  We wouldn't have the 1st Amendment, or ANY amendments, or the Constitution.  We'd still be paying exorbitant taxes to a third party and we'd still not have any say whatsoever in our own government.

Most important of all, because I am a mature adult, I accept that not everybody will be happy with all of the representatives that THE PEOPLE have elected at any given time.  That means that sometimes I won't be happy about the decisions that my FELLOW AMERICANS have made.  That is the nature of DEMOCRACY, and the very reason why we have the system of checks and balances built into our government.  The ultimate accountability of our government to "WE THE PEOPLE" was promised to us by our founding fathers in the 2nd Amendment.  Our founding fathers fought long and hard for accountability and freedom from oppression, and they went to great lengths to make sure accountability was clearly guaranteed to THE PEOPLE in the 2nd Amendment.   The fact that our Constitution guarantees us that we have the right to rise up and revolt if necessary is the only thing that lends any legitimacy to our government whatsoever.  Only a fool would give that up without a fight.

If the pen were truly mightier than the sword, we'd be called "colonists" instead of Americans.

So you're saying that instead of trying to change the broken down government we have now with debate and civil discussion (our First Amendment right), we should just all collect assault rifles and handguns and bazookas and topple the current regime with force?

Great...  20/20 hindsight comments like yours really do nothing to aid in the discussion.

I'll give ya one to think about:  If the atomic bomb had never been invented, then we would never have had a cold war. 

[mrbreeze]

This subject really bites ass!!!!......Iknow,I know.....I don't have to read it but..................give it a break!!!!!!!.....AYYYYY CARUMBA!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Terry in Australia]

C'Mon Fred, don't pull the handbrake on yet mate, I'm enjoying this!