Topic: Michael Moore's SICKO is a must see.

[edbikerii]

Agreed on all counts, SEBNN.

Medicines cost more in the US because we bear the massive cost of FDA testing, which protects us all from "snake oil" vendors.  Anyone who has endured miserable, toxic chemotherapy treatments will tell you that they would not care to endure those treatments without FDA approvals that demonstrate the treatment's real benefits.

Frivolous malpractice lawsuits are definitely the biggest healthcare problem in the US.  Make the plaintiff pay the legal defense fees of the doctors they sue if they lose.  Then, only cases with real merit would be accepted by contingency-based attorneys.  ALL civil lawsuits should have the same restrictions.

Yes, allow immigrants in, as long as they can demonstrate a willingness to work hard and pay taxes just like every other American.  Hell, my grandparents were immigrants, yet they were very productive, good citizens.  They worked hard, and got decent jobs with healthcare benefits, too.

Let the government take over our healthcare and they will screw it up like almost every other thing the government gets involved in.

[Raul CB750K1]

A couple of comments on SEBBN post:


1. It is not as simple as "if you like UK more than US then you are free to go". It is like "if you don't want to fix your SOHC then you are free to buy a new bike". Things don't fix by themselves; when something doesn't work as it should you have to get your hands greasy and start doing things.


2. Emergency rooms? In the spanish socialized medicine, I have had to wait four hours for my wife to be diagnosed of a terrible rash. That definitely pissed both of us off, waiting four hours on a crowded waiting room. Last summer I felt a deep chest pain, that I had felt a month before. I started to get nervous about the prospect of a heart disease -even when I don't consider myself in risk-. Went to the public hospital in a city different than mine, and as soon as they asked me what happened, in five minutes a doctor was examining me. I spent four hours in the emergency room, but I got electrocardiogram, blood tests, even X-Ray. The doctors couldn't tell me from where the pain came, but at least they were able to tell me there was nothing wrong with my heart, even when I was not in the "risk group" as I don't smoke, don't drink, am not overweight, and doesn't have precedents in my family. How much did I have to pay? 0 It's up to the doctors to decide what is a life-threatening situation and what is not. I'm happy to wait for four hours for a bad itching rash when I know that if somebody arrives with chest pain will be treated first.

When I was in the states, I fell down while skating and broke my nose and an eyebrow. Went to the emergency room, was treated quick, everything was clean and new. Had to pay from my pocket money $2400 -later my company insurance reimbursed the amount-. That would have costed 0 in the socialized medicine, but maybe I should have had to wait ore or two hours with a bleeding nose in a waiting room.



University? I went to a public university, 1990 to 1994. Besides books, transportation etc, it costed me about 700 euro A YEAR. And if your family income qualifies, you can even get it for free.


Sure, there will be people getting rich by deviating public funds, and maybe some managers that could manage better public funds, but it doesn't work that bad at the end. In Spain, retired people get medicines FOR FREE. My mother gets all the medicine she needs without paying a dime, even expensive treatment as a calcium treatment. It has been ages since I don't go to the doctor. I'm happy to be healthy so I can work and pay for the socialized health so people with less luck than me can get free treatment.



From my point of view, health and education are basic needs, and as such, the state should give them to the citizens irrespective of their income. "The more you make, the more you pay". Sounds unfair to the rich ones, but that's what solidarity is about. After that, in a capitalist world, it is up to you how high you can climb the ladder, but nobody should be denied his basic needs.

[DammitDan]

I'm happy to be healthy so I can work and pay for the socialized health so people with less luck than me can get free treatment.

It's this sort of thinking that many Americans can't seem to understand.  "Well if they WANT to they could get a job or three and work their way out of the ghetto!  Well if they WANT to they would go to school and get an education!  Well if they WANT to they can just move out of our country, because we don't want someone leeching off OUR system!"

Many Americans (mostly conservative) have lost their compassion for their fellow man.  Their fellow AMERICAN brothers and sisters.  To them it's more about the money than about helping the people who cannot help themselves.  That's why socialized medicine won't work in America, because Americans are too greedy.  I am an American, and I am ashamed of my country.  Because it's not just the politicians, as Ed and others here have shown. 

I'm ashamed that people just don't care anymore.  And the problem is, the people who DO care are the ones who have given up on the system and want to move away.  People like me.  Hey Raul, can I move to Spain? 

[Raul CB750K1]

Believe me Dan, even when some systems over here would be better than in America, not all that glitters is gold. You think many americans are greedy? Come over here and you would stop complaining. People would try to get in front of you on waiting lines, will honk you if you wait more than one millisecond after the light turns green, will light their cigarettes without giving a damn whether it bothers you or not, and will throw cigarette butts, chewing gum, anything, to the floor instead of waste baskets. I found living in America much easier than living in Spain, as long as you can afford it. As I say, I was there as in "paid vacation" as my company paid my accomodation, rental car etc. I guess it gets much tougher if you go there and had to start from scratch, like many people at the beginning of the 20th century did.


Seems that Michael Moore is controversy in itself. Without even having seen his film -downloading now  -, the guy can create a stir!

[Bob Wessner]

I retired after working for a not-for-profit health care insurance provider for 35 years, so I have been following this thread with something of a parochial interest. There have been references to "free" in countries with what is being referred to as having socialized medicine. I've found nothing of value is ever free. In this instance, how the healthcare is paid for differs only in who pays and how, not if. Just trying to keep things in perspective.

Back to your regularly scheduled thread.

[putnaja1]

what a "must see movie"  ,like i need anymore reason to hate this country.... nuff said

Don't hate the country, it is the best in the world man.  Hate some of the boobs running it.  Politics is a messy business.  Anyone who can really run this country would never run for office which is just plain sad.  Look at the presidental candidates, are you kidding me!  I was my wife's campaign manager I had a first hand look at what really goes on.  It is just sick.  We won the election because of hard work and excellent experience.  Many others win because of their connections and million dollar bank accounts - once they are in office they are terrible for the job.  If you are looking for better leaders, campaign finance rules must be changed and limited, then good people will actually have a fair chance of running and winning.
Don't even get me started on lobbyists.  They are so deep in out lawmakers arses it is criminal.  They and big business run the joint.

I couldn't agree with Sparty more- happy to hear someone else say it- this is a great country.  You guys bellyaching about how bad it is in the USA because you are fresh out of a Michael Moore movie really need to get out and see the rest if the world..  Moore's idea that medical system is better in Cuba is freakin ridiculous..  If you wanna believe that, then go and take yourself and your family to Cuba for healthcare then, and let us know how it goes..

If you really want the straight poop on health care, or politics, go and research on your own, and find the real answers, not the answers as regurgitated by popular news media or Hollywood or Michael Moore, or talk radio.  Research politicians, read history, and always keep an eye out for any bias- the swaying of the historical account either to the left or the right..  The worst example of Hollywood sway I can think of is the Oliver Stone movie JFK.  His "facts" as presented in the movie were totally false, and yet most people who watched it just accept it as the gospel..  Scary stuff! 

[oldfordguy]

We in the US pride ourselves on building a Democracy back in 1776, maybe rather than Socialize medicine we should "Democtrictize" Medicine.

Right here is one of the root problems with the U.S.  Most people believe the above statement, even though it is patently false.  The US was founded as a "Republic," and one of the forms of government our forefathers feared was "Democracy!"  Read some of Thomas Jefferson, John Adams, etc., and you will see they gave us warnings about government that allowed the majority to vote for their own entitlements.  We have forgotten all they left written for us, and we will pay for it dearly.  We have no more "inalienable rights,"  only rights that haven't been "voted" away.

[putnaja1]

It's this sort of thinking that many Americans can't seem to understand.  "Well if they WANT to they could get a job or three and work their way out of the ghetto!  Well if they WANT to they would go to school and get an education!  Well if they WANT to they can just move out of our country, because we don't want someone leeching off OUR system!"

Many Americans (mostly conservative) have lost their compassion for their fellow man.  Their fellow AMERICAN brothers and sisters.  To them it's more about the money than about helping the people who cannot help themselves.  That's why socialized medicine won't work in America, because Americans are too greedy.  I am an American, and I am ashamed of my country.  Because it's not just the politicians, as Ed and others here have shown. 

I'm ashamed that people just don't care anymore.  And the problem is, the people who DO care are the ones who have given up on the system and want to move away.  People like me.  Hey Raul, can I move to Spain? 

As a conservative, I don't just categorically hate other people because they are poor or because they can't afford to take care of themselves..  I actually contribute a fair amount of money to charity, and donate clothing and toys to schools and other organizations- I claim none of these donations on my taxes- because I don't believe in doing these things for monetary benefit, and I don't want anyone to be able to say that this is why I've done them.

What I am against, is people giving poor or "underprivileged" folks a crutch- because we think they are unable to do things for themselves.  Does this make someone stronger- giving them hand outs?  Have any of you that accuse people in the USA of being too greedy to help out poor people actually been involved with any help organizations, or even talked to social workers?  If you have, you'd find there is a very high percentage of people that abuse these organizations.  I've personally heard a woman say she'd never go out and get a job, because she makes too much money staying on welfare.

I believe in helping people if they need help, but I also believe in the age-old 'give a man a fish/teach a man to fish'  I don't believe it just blanket support of people which in the end will ensure they stay poor.  Give people incentive.  There's a reason to work hard and make money- and it's not greed.

[edbikerii]

Middle-class working stiffs who ride the bus with their newspapers are actually "greedy", "oppressive", "rich", "conservatives" who have "lost their compassion for their fellow man".

What a crock!

Dan, you are still a graduate student, aren't you?  Have you ever had to work in order to get your next meal?  Have you ever had to support a wife and family, and pay taxes under penalty of imprisonment?  Are your parents still paying for your tuition and room & board?

I'm willing to bet that I've given more money to charity THIS YEAR than you've given in your entire life.  I volunteer about a day a month to Child ID programs (go ahead Google it, Dan), and giving elderly Veterans who can't drive rides to church, grocery stores, and family Sunday events.  How much of your life have you dedicated to "compassion for your fellow man", Dan?

I think you are all talk, Dan, just like the fear-mongering politicians.

[rugger81]

I'm a firm believer in "There ain't no such thing as a free lunch."  People throw around the word free when talking about socialized or government provided anything and thats nothing short of dangerously ignorant.  If socialized health care does come to the states, it will probably be to the tune of at least 10% pre-tax income. 

I know this dumbs it down a bit, but it seems to me a move to socialized health care will just be a government mandated, government provided health insurance that you pay for out of your paycheck.  That and the financial burden isn't going to be paid for by the poor nor the rich but by the middle class.  Most of whom already have insurance.

If you want to push socialized medical care, thats fine just sell it at face value.

[Raul CB750K1]

Of course there is no such thing as a free lunch. In Spain, medicine and education is paid by public funds, i.e. taxes. Until a person starts to work and pay taxes -say 25 years-, it has been nothing but a burden to the state. Education, medicine, etc, everything has been cost. During his/here productive years, he should pay for what the state paid for him, and pay in advance for his retirement -also from public funds- and medical welfare, obviously higher during seniorship.

Tell you what, even if there is people that doesn't work because they rather live from charity, I wouldn't trade myself for them. Feeding a person is dirt cheap, that's peanuts in a country's budget.

Let's get down to the bottom line. I pay 25% of my income in taxes, and aboout 5% for public health system and unemployment -if I get unemployed I get a small salary to help during some time -max. 2 yrs, depending on the time you have been working-

I don't drive seniors anywhere, nor do I serve food in homeless centers. I don't donate clothes because there has been organizations that clean and resell them in third world countries. In order to ease up my conscience I give a donation every now and then to the catholic church, Amnesty International, and a few others. I do claim my tax reduction though, I don't think bad for it because if there is a way to reduce the tax I pay that's fine for me, and it doesn't make me feel bad because donating a sum to reduce a 1% of that sum in your taxpaying seems like bad business to me. I don't give beggars either.


I like to think that my tax money goes to pay the public expenditure -roads, lighting, public administration- as well as public services such as tourist information, museum maintenance, and social services. If I can help somebody who needs it I'm glad to do it, but I don't feel I'm obliged to do more than that. In order to change the world, decisions have to be taken at higher levels than normal citizens.

[TwoTired]

I dislike Moore and have had no use for most of his work and I find him a smug little butthole. Having said all of that, you have to see this movie. What is being done by the Insurance Companies is criminal. If you have seen the Movie comment. If you have not viewed it, watch it and then comment.

Based on his previous deceitful and repugnant propaganda, I opine that anything that Moore does is a must avoid.  I would doubt his sincerity and accuracy if he yelled fire in a movie theater and I felt warm.
 He has no credibility.  His only skill is to stir the pot to smell different turds of interest.
When I feel the desire to have my morality and sensibility corrupted and tainted, and have exhausted every other method of wasting the time I have left in this world of the aware, (including the vastly more important activity of knowing exactly the number of strands I carry as navel lint), and someone provides the movie free of charge, AND pays for the power needed to display it, AND will wash off the saliva from the display screen after the showing, THEN I might view a Moore farce, provided there are no open windows out which to gaze.

2.) Drown the trial lawyers!  The reduction in lawsuits against doctors (and their insurance companies) would lead to a lower cost of insurance and medical treatment.

While I don't disagree with the basic sentiment, the insurance companies will not give up the cash cow they have grown.  If they stopped paying out claims and settlements today, they would continue to pocket the high premiums as bonus profit, or simply add it towards their marketing budget, pretty much like the oil companies and auto manufacturers do.

We in the US pride ourselves on building a Democracy back in 1776, maybe rather than Socialize medicine we should "Democtrictize" Medicine.

Right here is one of the root problems with the U.S.  Most people believe the above statement, even though it is patently false.  The US was founded as a "Republic," and one of the forms of government our forefathers feared was "Democracy!" 

Absolutely correct.
True democracies have been tried throughout history and every one of them has failed.  As soon as a population learns that they can democratically vote themselves entitlements without cost to the individual citizen, the government goes bankrupt, becomes powerless, and degenerates into anarchy.

[rugger81]

Oh and for the record, I have only seen and enjoyed a single Moore flick








Canadian Bacon   

[Uncle Ernie]

To all the folks who work their butts off with no insurance,
and all the folks living on fixed incomes,
may you die peacefully in your sleep
before cancer, alzheimers, organ failure, dementia, feebleness, stroke, wounds that don't heal, crippling arthritis, you outlive your savings, bad eyesight, bad circulation, blah blah blah set in.
You should have made better decisions, I guess.
Been more responsible.  Less frivolous.
It's downright unAmerican of you to hang around, in fact.
If you don't like it, move to England or Canada because real Amicians don't complain and like things just the way they are.
It's unpatriotic to question Authority. 

[Bob Wessner]

Frivolous malpractice lawsuits are definitely the biggest health care problem in the US.  Make the plaintiff pay the legal defense fees of the doctors they sue if they lose.  Then, only cases with real merit would be accepted by contingency-based attorneys.  ALL civil lawsuits should have the same restrictions.

Actually, the greatest, long-term impacts stemming from this area are the additional hospital/physician costs associated with "defensive medicine" aimed at avoiding lawsuits. They just go unnoticed by the general public in the form of tests and procedures we assume are necessary.

[rugger81]

To all the folks who work their butts off with no insurance,
and all the folks living on fixed incomes,
may you die peacefully in your sleep
before cancer, alzheimers, organ failure, dementia, feebleness, stroke, wounds that don't heal, crippling arthritis, you outlive your savings, bad eyesight, bad circulation, blah blah blah set in.
You should have made better decisions, I guess.
Been more responsible.  Less frivolous.
It's downright unAmerican of you to hang around, in fact.
If you don't like it, move to England or Canada because real Amicians don't complain and like things just the way they are.
It's unpatriotic to question Authority. 

 

ah yes, if you don't like the thought of socialized health care you want the poor and downtrodden to die and wither away;  less of a drain on the rest of us. 

When it comes to arguments of law, reason, and logic, I try and check my emotions at the door.  Crap like this, demonizing the other side, adds nothing to the argument, is counterproductive, and only insults your intelligence.

I'm all for going after the insurance companies.  I'm all for reforming the system and making health care more affordable for the masses.   I'm all for providing aid to those who truly need it. Just don't tell me I'm a bad, greedy, immoral person just because I don't want to be forced into some blanket health care program run by a government thats probably just going to screw it up even worse.

Furthermore, I know our health care system is far, far from perfect, I know it's not the best in the world, and I am capable of rationalizing the fact I am human and will one day require health care.  But whenever the day comes that I need healthcare, I will be sleeping in the bed that I have made.

and there I go and getting riled up over some worthless post

[eldar]

Rugger if you bothered to know ernie, you would shut up with your crap. Good day sir. You want a worthless post, look at ed.

[eldar]

Gee ed again you set aside any logical statement to make a personal attack. Figures. it is all you really have to use it seems. I support a wife and family, I have my own loans to pay off. You have nothing on me.  Sorry but you are wrong and pretty much almost everyone here knows it.

[Raul CB750K1]

From what I understand of what I've read, there is one side that says that if you want medical coverage, work and pay for it, and that it is unfair to pay for those that didn't prevent and foresaw that it was important to have medical coverage. That makes sense to me.

That being said, having a basic socialized health system is a good thing in my opinion. After this, many people "upgrade" and buy private insurance, so they can get quicker diagnosis, one-bed rooms with bed for companion instead of three-people bedrooms with no provision for companions, etc.

I have had that insurance once, because Nortel paid for it when I worked for them. I took the time to read all the small letter. It was something about four pages of small letter. It wouldn't cover cancer treatment. It wouldn't cover birth if it happened less than one year after suscription. It wouldn't cover transplants. And the list goes on and on. Basically, it covered everything that was not that expensive.


Maybe the solution would be a basic socialized medicine with the possibility to "upgrade". I can understand somebody will not work and live out of social help, but I can't imagine somebody getting ill just to get use of socialized health.


Let's put it this way: for an insurance company, the chances of a 40-year-old man to die from cancer is X. With maybe some correction factors -like race or state of residence-, the average 40-year-old man will have the same probability irrespective of his work -unless he works in a nuclear plant etc-.

So, the cost for medical insurance for every 40-year-old american should be the same, because it is calculated based on probabilities. A street sweeper makes considerably less than an airline pilot. Should they pay the same for insurance? From a logical point of view, the answer is yes, because they have the same chances. But from a solidary point of view, the answer is no, because if the pilot pays a little more, the sweeper will have to pay a little less so BOTH will be covered, and at the end of the day, neither of them want to make use of his medical insurance.

If you have socialized medicine funded with taxes, you pay more if you make more, but it doesn't mean you have more rights than your neighbour. Each one pays according to what he makes, that sounds fair to me, so everybody can be covered. After this, once the basic needs are covered, those who can afford to "upgrade" for a better service are free to do it.

[edbikerii]

Wow, here's a useful post from Eldar.  One of his best, I'd say.

Rugger if you bothered to know ernie, you would shut up with your crap. Good day sir. You want a worthless post, look at ed.

[edbikerii]

Yes, it was a personal attack on Dan.  I'm not ashamed of that.  Dan is one extremely vocal representative of a whole class of people who need a personal "grow the f up" call.  Can you guess who else is a member of that class, Eldar?

And lets hear about your charity and how well your family is insured.  You wouldn't be crying here about wanted the government to fix it if you weren't negligent in your duties to your family.

Gee ed again you set aside any logical statement to make a personal attack. Figures. it is all you really have to use it seems. I support a wife and family, I have my own loans to pay off. You have nothing on me.  Sorry but you are wrong and pretty much almost everyone here knows it.

[rugger81]

Rugger if you bothered to know ernie, you would shut up with your crap. Good day sir. You want a worthless post, look at ed.

having not read past this post...

It's painfully obvious that I don't know him nor do you guys know me.  Furthermore, there is nothing in this thread that can be stated that will change anyone's mind.  I'm sure Ernie is a well meaning guy, and from his previous posts he seems intelligent.  I don't mean that in any kind of bad or derogatory way, just stating it as is.  It just really bothers me when anyone from any which side, attacks and demonizes a differing opinion.  So I got riled up and basically did just what I was annoyed by.  I'm sorry and good day to you sir.


and with that I'll just avoid this thread...

[Raul CB750K1]

I just had a vision.....



...Michael Moore was reading the whole post and rubbing his hands...

[edbikerii]

Raul, the US already has a socialized medicine program for "poor" people.  It is called Medicaid, and it is very comprehensive.  It even covers surgeries like lap bands and gastric bypasses, cosmetic surgeries, HGH treatmens, etc. that most private insurance plans don't cover.

As I stated earlier, in NJ a family of 4 can qualify even if they have an income as high as $80,000USD.  Also, if you don't qualify based on income alone, there are special need-based exceptions for really expensive treatments.

So, even people with pretty significant incomes qualify for our socialized medicine program.  There is no need for any of this whining.

[DammitDan]

I don't like to argue with you, Ed, because you're not above making personal attacks to raise my ire.  Obviously as you've proven you're not ashamed of making definitive statements that you know nothing about.  I have worked while I was in school since the first week.  I was fortunate enough that my parents saved money for my education, but I still have $10,000 in debt that I have to pay off after going to state schools.  I've paid taxes, I've saved for my future, I pay for my own damn health and car insurance.  I've volunteered an entire week out of the year for the last 6 years to be a counselor for kids with chronic and terminal health problems.  It's called Camp Rainbow.  Go ahead, google it Ed.

Sure, I'm young.  Sure I'm an idealist.  But I hope if getting old means becoming selfish and calloused and forgetting what life is all about, then by god I hope I die young.  I'm all talk right now because there's really nothing I CAN do but talk.  It's hopeless to try and CHANGE anything, because people out there will do anything to keep the system the way it is, regardless of whether it is broken and leaking.  I guess it's just my idealist personality thinking change was supposed to be a good thing...

Maybe it's time for the "grow the #$%* up" class of people to climb out the hole they've been forced into by the "shut up, it's not broken" class of people.  Maybe it's time for us to grow out of our "grow the #$%* up" stage and into our, "shut up, it's broken and we're going to fix it whether you like it or not" stage.