Topic: Fuel injection conversion (edit) fixed a few things

[MJL]

There's probably some drawback, like less voltage or something. I wonder if you could increase the output by increasing the input?

[bucky katt]

the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

[750essess]

Im running a completely new custom harness with new connectors etc, solid state reg/rec, no turnsignals, halogen head and stock tail. Led tail would probably help just dont think it would be enough. Definitely need more juice to be able to run with headlight on all the time. Making an adapter to put on a newer rotor seems the best route along with modifying the cover for the matching stator (eyeballin' it, it seems possible to fit the stator in the cover but haven't attempted it yet) Wish I had a cnc lathe.

[Retro Rocket]

the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

I am considering using the Cycle x alternator and led's, i like the idea of less weight also not running the starter but my only hesitation is kicking a 1000cc Honda every time i want to go for a ride. With 10.5 to 1 compression, would the 1000cc be any harder to kick than the 750.?

Mick

[MJL]

the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.

[754]

I run manual equipment, I doubt it is really worth the setup cost to make the adaptor on a CNC... unless you had exact mesurements of the tapers
 Pretty easy on a manual, a few tricks I will explain if/when you are ready.
 Basic process;
 setup female taper that fits on crank, easy to get angle if you know the tricks.
 Turn female to fit stock crank, or test plug shaft, made to fit rotor, full engagement, cut a 2nd or 3rd is good idea.
 When it is done and fitting to your sample crank, or stuck if it real close, remove from lathe, cut or part off.
 Now mount crank (will need steady)in lathe, or test plug shaft, snout to tailstock, taper adaptor blank on. Now set up your 2nd taper, and fit to rotor you want to use.. pay attention to how far in you want rotor to sit... done..

 Should take about 1 to 1.5 hrs.... if you know how to use a lathe..

[Retro Rocket]

the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.

I thought it was common knowledge on here that his alternator conversion was kick only, i think it says it on his site as well...

Mick

[750essess]

I run manual equipment, I doubt it is really worth the setup cost to make the adaptor on a CNC... unless you had exact mesurements of the tapers
 Pretty easy on a manual, a few tricks I will explain if/when you are ready.
 Basic process;
 setup female taper that fits on crank, easy to get angle if you know the tricks.
 Turn female to fit stock crank, or test plug shaft, made to fit rotor, full engagement, cut a 2nd or 3rd is good idea.
 When it is done and fitting to your sample crank, or stuck if it real close, remove from lathe, cut or part off.
 Now mount crank (will need steady)in lathe, or test plug shaft, snout to tailstock, taper adaptor blank on. Now set up your 2nd taper, and fit to rotor you want to use.. pay attention to how far in you want rotor to sit... done..

 Should take about 1 to 1.5 hrs.... if you know how to use a lathe..

Yeah sounds easy I dont have any kind of lathe though. Also the new rotor needs to be modified for the stater clutch to mount, forgot about that. I have a local place that can do all this work, I just haven't got to it yet. If you get around to doing this, I would be interested in buying . The VFR800 parts seem best to start with since they are higher output. I have a VFR800 rotor and stator and extra starter clutch and alt cover I could send to u if u want. There seems to be a demand for this type of thing. Also would have to use the vfr800 reg/rec or some kind of universal one. It looks to me ( I could be wrong) that the cycle x is a cb350 or similar alternator and would not be higher output than the stock one.

[754]

I am a long ways from you and shipping across the border can be a hassle and add to costs.
 I think we can probably get someone in the US to try it, maybe Hondaman..
 I think the tapers are often the same, just larger in diameter, but doing it the way I described and checking fit/offset means turning it around.

 I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

 I have a buddy who is well versed in electrical matters, I suggested we build a test fixture to actually measure the output, if I got him on board, we could try this out..

[Laminar]

I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

IIRC I measured five rotations of the Nighthawk 550's alternator to four rotations of the crank. Also, output is worthless until 2500 rpm, so at idle my light is super dim and my horn doesn't work.

[750essess]

I am a long ways from you and shipping across the border can be a hassle and add to costs.
 I think we can probably get someone in the US to try it, maybe Hondaman..
 I think the tapers are often the same, just larger in diameter, but doing it the way I described and checking fit/offset means turning it around.

 I had been toying with putting a 650 Nighthawk/CBX style alernator on a cb 750, but I think it turns faster than crank speed, and could be belt driven.I did mention on the turbo thread that this could probably be placed where a magneto sits, and an electronic ignition simply moved outward, meaning it could be run in addition to the stock one.

 I have a buddy who is well versed in electrical matters, I suggested we build a test fixture to actually measure the output, if I got him on board, we could try this out..

Ok I'll get my local guy to do it sometime this winter. The taper looks the same diameter is just larger. I can just hand him all the parts and say make it fit. I had a cbx for a while and I remember it not charging that well either. Just looked up the power output of vfr alt and its 325w at 3500rpm, thats 27 amps at 12v. The stock is 120 w at 5000rpm or 10 amp at 12v, 2.7 times more power!!! Also read that vfr regulators commonly fail but electrosport has an upgraded one for 99 bucks.

[MJL]

the cyclexchange has a system with higher output i believe. it does eliminate electric start though.

I disagree about the electric start, and will call Ken to discuss with him.

I thought it was common knowledge on here that his alternator conversion was kick only, i think it says it on his site as well...

Mick

I believe it is a misconception.

         "NEW" Cycle X  charging system
* Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )

"Allows Battery operation..." If you have a battery then what is stopping you from using the starter?

* Crankshaft oil block-off sleeve ( Kick only )

I believe he includes parts to convert to kick only, not that it makes you go kick only.



There is also the exposed charging system, claimed to be 16 amps.

Alternator block off plate with exposed charging system

A cafe charging system 1.JPG (223317 bytes)A cafe charging system 2.JPG (226413 bytes)Sample of our exposed charging system.

charge system for sight.JPG (333338 bytes)  Getting closer to the finish line

We like this system for a few reasons.
The Cycle X charging system is great.
The throttle response is instant.
16 amp versus OEM 13 amp output.
The system is thinner than the OEM system ( for you road racer people)
And my favorite:
The exposed alternator looks cool.

 

[Retro Rocket]

From their site.

* Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )
* Rotor weighs only 1.640 lb's for high rev potential
* 14 amp system
* Kick only ( who needs a button anyway )
* Complete system weighs over 8 lbs less than a OEM system.

Mick

[MJL]

Yes. Read the first line of your quote, and tell me why, if it can be used with a battery, it can't be used with a starter?

[Retro Rocket]

Yes. Read the first line of your quote, and tell me why, if it can be used with a battery, it can't be used with a starter?

Its because to fit their charging system you have to remove the starter gear that drives the starter. I am not sure why it had to be made this way but i am sure there is a reason.

Mick

[754]

Whatever rotating element they used would have to ;
 
 Have provision to MOUNT the starter sprag assembly

 Have enough STRENGTH to be able to use said assembly.



 I am thinking they were going for lighter rotating mass, maybe did not use steel for the rotor (too heavy)..
 besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

[deuce_454]

besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know

[754]

Oh.. hey forgot about that, I was adressing the question of why the lightweight rotor probably does not use electric start..

 But for the track, you could use roller starting..

[MJL]

Whatever rotating element they used would have to ;
 
 Have provision to MOUNT the starter sprag assembly

 Have enough STRENGTH to be able to use said assembly.



 I am thinking they were going for lighter rotating mass, maybe did not use steel for the rotor (too heavy)..
 besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

I spoke with Ken today, and he explained to me what no one else has so far. Apparently the starter sprag is on the alternator itself, and to make his single phase alternator with a sprag would be cost prohibitive. "...no one would buy it." 

I also asked him about what could be done to get more amperage out of the stock alternator, and he had no idea. I have a spare motor that I will pull the alternator from and take it to a shop to see about having it rewound for more power.   Just how many amps do we need? Is 20 good?

[Retro Rocket]

besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know

There are kick start dirt bikes with injection now so maybe this isn't that much of a problem, how many rpm's would a Honda do when kicking...anyone know?

Mick

[Retro Rocket]

besides who needs electric start anyway.. well maybe  riders in the 70s or people with blownout knees....

eerhmmm anyone running fuelinjection not willing to push start the bike..... the ecu (microsquirt atleast) needs atleast 50 rpm (minimum setting IIRC) for a set amount of time (upwards of a full second i believe) to start firing the injectors.... and without fuel.. well you know

Hi Deuce,i looked into this "kick start" subject and found that ,

The kickstarter must be able to spin the engine at least three or four hundred RPM.

So if this is the case then there will be no problems kick starting an injected Honda. I will drop in the link that i found this in.
http://www.dansmc.com/kickstarters.htm     Its down near the bottom..

Mick

[754]

Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element..

[Retro Rocket]

Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element..

Yes i know that, what i was trying to say is that the kick starter kicks the engine well over the 50 rpm needed for the injection to work and start the bike. So the fuel injection should work with a kick only bike. I will keep reading and see what else i can find...

Mick

[MJL]

Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element..

You are the first one to post up why it is kick only, everyone else just quotes the website. So, not knowing, I called Ken.  Then I read your post.

[Retro Rocket]

Like I said, no easy way to mount the sprag to light metal rotating element..

You are the first one to post up why it is kick only, everyone else just quotes the website. So, not knowing, I called Ken.  Then I read your post.

Interesting, as i understood it,  you just wanted to know if it worked with electric start..?

Mick