Topic: For the conspiracy theorists here

[edbikerii]

I just feel the need to point out that statements made in a movie are not "facts".

[toycollector10]

I would like to apologise to troppo for my outburst back there on page one. I get a couple of beers in at night and I can lose direction sometimes. Sorry, mate.   

[Terry in Australia]

You guys really ought to watch Zeitgeist...  Like I said, it puts forth some very logical conclusions.

For example, tower 7 in the WTC collapsed in the same day due to "fire", but even IF a steel building could collapse from fire alone, why would it just drop straight down like a controlled demolition?  They said the reason the towers dropped straight down was because of the airplane hits, but tower 7 wasn't hit by an airplane.

What of the testimony of dozens of people who all heard, who were ROCKED by an explosion in the basement of the WTC complex?  I suppose they were lying to get attention.

What about the fact that the plane that few into the Pentagon created a fire that was hot enough to vaporize hardened steel (eg. airplane engine and frame parts), and yet there were bodies recovered from the area that were still recognizable enough to be identified?

What about the fact that in just a year before, NORAD had performed a "flight intercept wargame," simulating time and success of interception of aircraft for escort.  The average time for 67 intercepts was around 10 minutes with a 100% success rate.  On September 11, over 80 minutes after initial warning, no fighters had even been scrambled.

What about the fact that when the President and Cheney went before the 911 Commission, they would only testify if these demands were met:

They appeared together.
They were not under oath.
No press or family members were allowed to attend.
No recording of any kind was allowed.
No transcript was allowed.

What about the fact that the FBI is refusing to release tapes of the plane hitting the Pentagon to the public?

This is what makes me EXTREMELY suspicious of it all.

I'm with you Dirty Dan, there were plenty of experienced firemen and cops (not just civilians with no knowledge of how building fires work) interviewed at the scene who talked about the multiple explosions, and about how the buildings falling straight down resembled a controlled demolition.

Building 7, that only apparently suffered from falling debris and a small fire, fell down in the same way, 3 hours later! Who built these buildings, Leggo?

In real life, if a building falls down, it's not as neat as that, and considering that the towers were built to withstand exactly what "officially" brought them down, the whole thing smells fishy.

And if the government really wanted the people to accept the official story, why didn't they release the security footage of the plane hitting the Pentagon? I mean, if the government wanted conspiracy theorists to latch onto 9/11, they've served it up to them on a plate!  

[Rocking-M]

I would like to apologise to troppo for my outburst back there on page one. I get a couple of beers in at night and I can lose direction sometimes. Sorry, mate.   

Well said TC, an apology without a but, a rare thing now-a-days. Bravo!

[troppo]

I would like to apologise to troppo for my outburst back there on page one. I get a couple of beers in at night and I can lose direction sometimes. Sorry, mate.   

not a problem mate i can get a little argumentative myself after a little neck oil lol.
this thrread had been great, the way we have put our thoughts and opinions forward with no flaming or temper tantrums, basicly a good old fashioned debate....
as i`ve said, SWMBO is a big conspiracy fan and has watched everything she can get her hands on, there are a lot of very convincing arguments, logical, scientificaly sound and verifiable points in the stuff about the towers, i`m on the fence for this as i know how heated and even violent these discussions can get
cheers
troppo

[Shenanigans]

I thought that this article was well written.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html

[troppo]

SWMBO has been reading over my shoulder and wants me to post one more thing
the BBC was doing a live cross to new york as the day went on, the reporter touched her earphone and stated that tower 7 had collapsed MINUTES BEFORE IT HAPPENED
sorry guys but you know what its like

[eldar]

Terry, "dirty" dan(dirty cause of a yamaha! ), and troppo, For me there have been to many unanswered questions. Just too much that was unexplained and too much that apparently only makes sense to popular mechanics and not to countless other experts. I believe this was caused by someone other than terrorists, at least no arab terrorists. Then over the years, there are countless laws enacted that SUPPOSEDLY are used to monitor foreign elements in the US but are increasingly turned onto US CITIZENS, laws that invade our privacy and reduce our freedoms. Last time this happened was in the late 30's in germany. We all know how that turned out. Now Bush wants to turn spy satelites on the US. All of this is just a precursor to constant monitoring of ALL US people. All for the simple purpose of creating a north american union and removing civil rights. Any of you who say no to this, just look at the past few years, if you can still say no, then you are the type of person Bush is looking for and relies on.

With all these SUPPOSED increases in security, bush is now trying to say there is am imminent attack coming, yet others who are part of the NSA say there isnt. Who to believe. I suppose their could be an attack soon but by who? If it happens, I am very doubtful that it will be some islamic group. Will it even be a military attack or will it be economic? 

Tell you the truth, I think the economic attack has been happening since bush took office. Gas skyrockets, the dollar is basically in intensive care worldwide, countrys do not want US currency for anything. And yet people still believe and trust the government

What will it take before people believe? The day news suddenly arrives saying US troops are shutting down cities and roads and anyone out after 6 will be shot? Is that what it will take? This can be prevented of course. It is called shaking up our elected leaders and getting rid of power blocks and parties.

It was said earlier that this country is in 2 groups. That is absolutely true. I can tell you which side is growing too. It is not the side that trusts the govt. use your head people, dont believe traditional media outlets. Look below the surface and stop fooling yourself. Above all, even if you still choose to believe our govt, prepare yourself anyways.

Do I sound nuts? I hope so cause it was "nuts" that originally founded the USA.

[Rocking-M]

Terry, "dirty" dan(dirty cause of a yamaha! ), and troppo, For me there have been to many unanswered questions. Just too much that was unexplained and too much that apparently only makes sense to popular mechanics and not to countless other experts. I believe this was caused by someone other than terrorists, at least no arab terrorists. Then over the years, there are countless laws enacted that SUPPOSEDLY are used to monitor foreign elements in the US but are increasingly turned onto US CITIZENS, laws that invade our privacy and reduce our freedoms. Last time this happened was in the late 30's in germany. We all know how that turned out. Now Bush wants to turn spy satelites on the US. All of this is just a precursor to constant monitoring of ALL US people. All for the simple purpose of creating a north american union and removing civil rights. Any of you who say no to this, just look at the past few years, if you can still say no, then you are the type of person Bush is looking for and relies on.

With all these SUPPOSED increases in security, bush is now trying to say there is am imminent attack coming, yet others who are part of the NSA say there isnt. Who to believe. I suppose their could be an attack soon but by who? If it happens, I am very doubtful that it will be some islamic group. Will it even be a military attack or will it be economic? 

Tell you the truth, I think the economic attack has been happening since bush took office. Gas skyrockets, the dollar is basically in intensive care worldwide, countrys do not want US currency for anything. And yet people still believe and trust the government

What will it take before people believe? The day news suddenly arrives saying US troops are shutting down cities and roads and anyone out after 6 will be shot? Is that what it will take? This can be prevented of course. It is called shaking up our elected leaders and getting rid of power blocks and parties.

It was said earlier that this country is in 2 groups. That is absolutely true. I can tell you which side is growing too. It is not the side that trusts the govt. use your head people, dont believe traditional media outlets. Look below the surface and stop fooling yourself. Above all, even if you still choose to believe our govt, prepare yourself anyways.

Do I sound nuts? I hope so cause it was "nuts" that originally founded the USA.

++++1

[Terry in Australia]

Very well written Eldy, scary "1984" stuff, but with more than a hint of truth. And don't worry, the fear of "Big Brother" is spreading worldwide.

If I had any money in 2001, I should have bought stocks in the major security firms, they've made more money out of 9/11 than just about any other industry................ 

[736cc]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY
> U.S. PRESIDENT,
> DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

> My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of
> the Iraq regime has
> been completed.
>
> Since congress does not want to spend any more money
> on this war, our
> mission in Iraq is complete.
>
> This morning I gave the order for a complete removal
> of all American
> forces from Iraq This action will be complete within
> 30 days. It is now
> time to begin the reckoning.
>
> Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the
> names of countries
> which have stood by our side during the Iraq
> conflict. This list is short.
> The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia ,
> and Poland are some of
> the countries listed there.
>
> The other list contains everyone not on the first
> list. Most of the
> world's nations are on that list. My press secretary
> will be distributing
> copies of both lists later this evening.
>
> Let me start by saying that effective immediately,
> foreign aid to those
> nations on List 2 ceases immediately and
> indefinitely. The money saved
> during the first year alone will pretty much pay for
> the costs of the
> Iraqi war. THEN EVERY YEAR THERE AFTER IT GO TO OUR
> SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM
> SO IT WONT GO BROKE IN 20 YEARS.
>
> The American people are no longer going to pour
> money into third world
> Hellholes and watch those government leaders grow
> fat on corruption.
>
> Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an
> epidemic? Call France .
>
> In the future, together with Congress, I will work
> to redirect this money
> toward solving the vexing social problems we still
> have at home . On that
> note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with
> us and we will hunt
> you down and eliminate you and all your friends from
> the face of the
> earth.
>
> Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try
> France , or maybe China .
>
> I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic
> relations with France ,
> Germany , and Russia . Thanks for all your help,
> comrades. We are retiring
> from NATO as well. Bon chance, mess amiss.
>
> I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to
> begin towing the many UN
> diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more
> than two unpaid parking
> tickets to sites where those vehicles will be
> stripped, shredded and
> crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains
> to this. You creeps
> have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those
> tickets tomorrow or
> watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be
> turned over to some of
> the finest chop shops in the world. I love New Yor

>
> Mexico is also on List 2 President Felipe Calderon
> and his entire corrupt
> government really need an attitude adjustment. I
> will have a couple extra
> tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess
> where I am going to put
> 'em? Yep, border security.
>
> Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the
> NAFTA treaty -
> starting now.
>
> We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately,
> we'll be drilling for
> oil in Alaska - which will take care of this
> country's oil needs for
> decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who
> opposes this decision,
> I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move
> there. They care.
>
> It is time for America to focus on its own welfare
> and its own citizens.
> Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them
> by saying, "darn
> too-tin."
>
> Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a
> decent life around the
> world has only earned us the undying enmity of just
> about everyone on the
> planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America It
> is time to eliminate
> homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1,
> a final thought. Thank
> you guys. We owe you and we won't forget.
>
> To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might
> want to learn to
> speak Arabic.
>
> God bless America . Thank you and good night.
>

[sandcastcb750]

Cat Stevens predicted with the album "Catch a Bull at Four" of 9/11 when the recordings were released in fall, September 27,1972 (when tower one finished).

"Sitting" topped the billboards in 1973 when the WTC officially opened (ribbon cutting ceremony) in April 4, 1973

Several of the songs on the album describe 9/11 . Particularly chilling is the descriptins in "freezing steel" about the airplane and talking to the pilot. Another song is about the ruins of the city. Full lyrics are in the record cover or you can find them online.

http://livingcode.org/temp/cat_stevens.html

Check it out!!

[sandcastcb750]

I saw the video.

There are alot of errors.

First, there are some pieces of the building longer than 2 feet. I have been to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) and I saw many pieces as long as 20 feet. Also, some pieces were pristine condition with paint, markings and communication wiring attached ; yes some bending. Others were really bent and burned . Not everything was pulverized.

Second, maybe the building didn't reach 3000F to melt the steel. 2000F is plenty hot and the strength of the steel would be much lower. Also, when the plan hit the building, it destroyed crossmembers and decreased the unsupported length of the columns. So, the steel columns fail and the upper 10-20 stories fall down.

The terrorists got lucky in 2001. Afterall, they weren't successful in 1993.

[Rocking-M]

I saw the video.

There are alot of errors.

First, there are some pieces of the building longer than 2 feet. I have been to NIST (National Institute of Standards and Technology) and I saw many pieces as long as 20 feet. Also, some pieces were pristine condition with paint, markings and communication wiring attached ; yes some bending. Others were really bent and burned . Not everything was pulverized.

Second, maybe the building didn't reach 3000F to melt the steel. 2000F is plenty hot and the strength of the steel would be much lower. Also, when the plan hit the building, it destroyed crossmembers and decreased the unsupported length of the columns. So, the steel columns fail and the upper 10-20 stories fall down.

The terrorists got lucky in 2001. Afterall, they weren't successful in 1993.

Maybe I'd go for the got lucky scenario once, but not twice.
The buildings were built to withstand just such a hit. the fire was not a sustained one
so even if 3000 degrees was hit, it was a brief time frame, certainly not long enough to
cause a structural damaging of the steel supports (as anyone who as ever held a rosebud
to a piece of steel, or used a forge could attest to). The planes never reached the
structural supports which were in the centers so that scenario could not happen.
Again the buildings were designed with just such a hit from a plane in mind
because it had happened before and even then without a structural collapse as
happened not once but three times in this case, and one of the buildings wasn't
even hit by a plane.

What was that statement that Bush couldn't even quote,
"Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me".


As to your statement about the length of the steel pieces left over,
not really a key point, I think that most of it was of a length that readily would
fit in a dump truck and that's the point.

[sandcastcb750]

One terrorist almost missed the second tower; you don't think he was lucky at 400mph? With only about 15 minutes time difference, it was a little hard to make a decision to shoot the second down. Obviously, the first was a big surprise.

Steel loses a lot of strength at high temperatures. Metal buildings can be more dangerous in a fire than say wood. Wood stays strong until the center is burned out. Metal has immediate strength loss. Whatever fire insulation the steel had was probably knocked off during the crash. Ask any structural engineer (me if you want; I was a civil engineer) and they will tell you that removal of horizontal beams, will decrease column loading strength.

With regard to carefully placed explosions under the fires, it looked like the pressure of the building collapsing and blowing out the sides.

As a non scientific observation, I think more can be said about Cat Stevens. "Catch a Bull at Four" could be interpreted that the elimination of the WTC was an economic hit on America which is located near the Bull on Wall Street. The four was the four planes. How is that for ridiculous

[Marksan]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY
> U.S. PRESIDENT,
> DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

> My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of
> the Iraq regime has
> been completed.
>
> Since congress does not want to spend any more money
> on this war, our
> mission in Iraq is complete.





^^^^^^^^^^^GENIUS AT WORK!!!....................if China called in its debt the US would be broke overnight!! 
>
> This morning I gave the order for a complete removal
> of all American
> forces from Iraq This action will be complete within
> 30 days. It is now
> time to begin the reckoning.
>
> Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the
> names of countries
> which have stood by our side during the Iraq
> conflict. This list is short.
> The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia ,
> and Poland are some of
> the countries listed there.
>
> The other list contains everyone not on the first
> list. Most of the
> world's nations are on that list. My press secretary
> will be distributing
> copies of both lists later this evening.
>
> Let me start by saying that effective immediately,
> foreign aid to those
> nations on List 2 ceases immediately and
> indefinitely. The money saved
> during the first year alone will pretty much pay for
> the costs of the
> Iraqi war. THEN EVERY YEAR THERE AFTER IT GO TO OUR
> SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM
> SO IT WONT GO BROKE IN 20 YEARS.
>
> The American people are no longer going to pour
> money into third world
> Hellholes and watch those government leaders grow
> fat on corruption.
>
> Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an
> epidemic? Call France .
>
> In the future, together with Congress, I will work
> to redirect this money
> toward solving the vexing social problems we still
> have at home . On that
> note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with
> us and we will hunt
> you down and eliminate you and all your friends from
> the face of the
> earth.
>
> Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try
> France , or maybe China .
>
> I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic
> relations with France ,
> Germany , and Russia . Thanks for all your help,
> comrades. We are retiring
> from NATO as well. Bon chance, mess amiss.
>
> I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to
> begin towing the many UN
> diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more
> than two unpaid parking
> tickets to sites where those vehicles will be
> stripped, shredded and
> crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains
> to this. You creeps
> have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those
> tickets tomorrow or
> watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be
> turned over to some of
> the finest chop shops in the world. I love New Yor

>
> Mexico is also on List 2 President Felipe Calderon
> and his entire corrupt
> government really need an attitude adjustment. I
> will have a couple extra
> tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess
> where I am going to put
> 'em? Yep, border security.
>
> Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the
> NAFTA treaty -
> starting now.
>
> We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately,
> we'll be drilling for
> oil in Alaska - which will take care of this
> country's oil needs for
> decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who
> opposes this decision,
> I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move
> there. They care.
>
> It is time for America to focus on its own welfare
> and its own citizens.
> Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them
> by saying, "darn
> too-tin."
>
> Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a
> decent life around the
> world has only earned us the undying enmity of just
> about everyone on the
> planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America It
> is time to eliminate
> homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1,
> a final thought. Thank
> you guys. We owe you and we won't forget.
>
> To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might
> want to learn to
> speak Arabic.
>
> God bless America . Thank you and good night.
>

[Demon67]

As an side 736cc I can hardly wait to see nafta scrapped.
Bill.

[Cvillechopper]

WOULDN'T IT BE GREAT TO TURN ON THE TV AND HEAR ANY
> U.S. PRESIDENT,
> DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN GIVE THE FOLLOWING SPEECH?

> My Fellow Americans: As you all know, the defeat of
> the Iraq regime has
> been completed.
>
> Since congress does not want to spend any more money
> on this war, our
> mission in Iraq is complete.
>
> This morning I gave the order for a complete removal
> of all American
> forces from Iraq This action will be complete within
> 30 days. It is now
> time to begin the reckoning.
>
> Before me, I have two lists. One list contains the
> names of countries
> which have stood by our side during the Iraq
> conflict. This list is short.
> The United Kingdom , Spain , Bulgaria , Australia ,
> and Poland are some of
> the countries listed there.
>
> The other list contains everyone not on the first
> list. Most of the
> world's nations are on that list. My press secretary
> will be distributing
> copies of both lists later this evening.
>
> Let me start by saying that effective immediately,
> foreign aid to those
> nations on List 2 ceases immediately and
> indefinitely. The money saved
> during the first year alone will pretty much pay for
> the costs of the
> Iraqi war. THEN EVERY YEAR THERE AFTER IT GO TO OUR
> SOCIAL SECURITY SYSTEM
> SO IT WONT GO BROKE IN 20 YEARS.
>
> The American people are no longer going to pour
> money into third world
> Hellholes and watch those government leaders grow
> fat on corruption.
>
> Need help with a famine ? Wrestling with an
> epidemic? Call France .
>
> In the future, together with Congress, I will work
> to redirect this money
> toward solving the vexing social problems we still
> have at home . On that
> note, a word to terrorist organizations. Screw with
> us and we will hunt
> you down and eliminate you and all your friends from
> the face of the
> earth.
>
> Thirsting for a gutsy country to terrorize? Try
> France , or maybe China .
>
> I am ordering the immediate severing of diplomatic
> relations with France ,
> Germany , and Russia . Thanks for all your help,
> comrades. We are retiring
> from NATO as well. Bon chance, mess amiss.
>
> I have instructed the Mayor of New York City to
> begin towing the many UN
> diplomatic vehicles located in Manhattan with more
> than two unpaid parking
> tickets to sites where those vehicles will be
> stripped, shredded and
> crushed. I don't care about whatever treaty pertains
> to this. You creeps
> have tens of thousands of unpaid tickets. Pay those
> tickets tomorrow or
> watch your precious Benzes, Beamers and limos be
> turned over to some of
> the finest chop shops in the world. I love New Yor

>
> Mexico is also on List 2 President Felipe Calderon
> and his entire corrupt
> government really need an attitude adjustment. I
> will have a couple extra
> tank and infantry divisions sitting around. Guess
> where I am going to put
> 'em? Yep, border security.
>
> Oh, by the way, the United States is abrogating the
> NAFTA treaty -
> starting now.
>
> We are tired of the one-way highway. Immediately,
> we'll be drilling for
> oil in Alaska - which will take care of this
> country's oil needs for
> decades to come. If you're an environmentalist who
> opposes this decision,
> I refer you to List 2 above: pick a country and move
> there. They care.
>
> It is time for America to focus on its own welfare
> and its own citizens.
> Some will accuse us of isolationism. I answer them
> by saying, "darn
> too-tin."
>
> Nearly a century of trying to help folks live a
> decent life around the
> world has only earned us the undying enmity of just
> about everyone on the
> planet. It is time to eliminate hunger in America It
> is time to eliminate
> homelessness in America . To the nations on List 1,
> a final thought. Thank
> you guys. We owe you and we won't forget.
>
> To the nations on List 2, a final thought: You might
> want to learn to
> speak Arabic.
>
> God bless America . Thank you and good night.
>

It's statements like these that make me VERY glad we have a checks and balances system that would never allow such a short-sighted individual to actually go through with these threats.  Let's hear it for rationalism.

[upperlake04]

 Yay for rationalism 
 
 Every time the Redneck Manifesto is reposted these nonsense lines jump out..
 
 

One list contains the names of countries which have stood by our side during the Iraq conflict.

To the nations on List 1, a final thought. Thank you guys. We owe you and we won't forget.

   The invitation by the US to participate  was based on the idea that Iraq was soon going to use  weapons of mass destruction on all of us. The majority of the worlds' countries were not convinced by the 'proof' and made the decision to decline to invade and trash a 3rd world sovereign nation.  As the WMDs were fiction,  List 2 looks pretty good to me. 
 

[Demon67]

Hey upperlake I get twitchy every time some one in power, authority, whatever says I should panic about the forth coming Apocalypse I guess I'm too old, too Canadian to believe Most of the crap we're fed wether from the yanks, brits, or my own gov. As far as the redneck manifesto goes the people who spout it should read history not just watch it.
Bill

[Rocking-M]

I don't suppose either of you Canadian Miscreants are referring to this

http://www.amazon.com/Redneck-Manifesto-Hillbillies-Americas-Scapegoats/dp/0684838648

I suppose I should add a few smileys 
since I don't think either of you were aware of the book. 

[Demon67]

No Rocking M I was referring  to some of the simple minded crap that people hand out because they haven't
really thought about the other point of view and can't place themselves there, as I got older, I realized there's at least two sides to every view (gross distortion of numbers) my favorite simple minded solution for the ills of the world is appoint a politician at random to be king, for a year then wish all our sins, problems, whatever on him, her and hang them at the end of the year, there bye getting rid of our problems. I'm not sure what the other miscreants were on about.
Bill.

[Terry in Australia]

Ok, Bourbon supply- check! Popcorn machine - on! Time to sit back, relax, and watch the fun!

[Demon67]

Terry I get a news feed from Oz everyday and just occasionally hear (read) simple minded crap coming out of it, I don't really think its country dependent but I don't want you to feel left out.
Bill.

[DammitDan]

my favorite simple minded solution for the ills of the world is appoint a politician at random to be king, for a year then wish all our sins, problems, whatever on him, her and hang them at the end of the year, there bye getting rid of our problems. I'm not sure what the other miscreants were on about.
Bill.

I like this idea... 

Quaint and violent at the same time.