First of all, Klark, you were right. I was wrong. I didn't understand the full depth of the PNAC's influence. Yes, they were writing about Iraq back in the late '90s too.
Truth be told, I agree with most of what you are saying, too. The patriot act does undermine many of our American principles and Constitutional Liberties. Our traditional values and principles have been eroded. I'm not clear on why we still "need" it, either. At the time that it was created, the majority of Americans thought that it was appropriate as a set of counter-measures to terrorism, but it should have been phased out rapidly, and it dangerously undermines many of the freedoms our founding fathers fought hard to secure.
No, the Chinese have not used our nuclear secrets against us, YET. The fact that they own so much of our debt does not sit well with me either. Imagine telling Americans that they can no longer get cheap chinese goods at Target, Walmart and Kohls?
I referred to the impact of the military base closings, and the fact that hundreds of thousands of associated workers lost their jobs. That is true. The fact that we had lots of growth in technology had absolutely nothing to do with the Clinton administration. Bill Gates, Lou Gerstner, and Steve Jobs had more to do with that than Bill Clinton. I guess big corporations sometimes get it right, huh?
A BUDGET surplus is not a REAL surplus. BUDGET surpluses are based on PROJECTED revenues. Those tax revenues that were PROJECTED during the Clinton administration never materialized, as the economic house of cards collapsed. Back then there were even books published like "The Long Boom" in which 20 more years of ridiculous growth were predicted. Those projections and BUDGETS were totally un-realistic and irresponsible.
You are right. We've all been lied to. By both the democrats and the republicans. As I have repeatedly said, the two party system is no good, and it serves only to divide. Party lines are counterproductive.
Do you feel that it is counterproductive to point out that the democrats supported the Iraq war just as much as the republicans in the late '90s? It certainly seems pretty relevant to me, and that was the whole point of this thread.
OK, I see that document now. I see a list of people at the bottom, but no signatures. Here's a direct link:
http://www.newamericancentury.org/statementofprinciples.htm
In reading the document, you could easily infer some sinister motive of advancing American principles globally for no other reason than to dominate the world.
Nobody is infering anything. The people involved ARE dominating the world. or at least trying their hardest to.
Or, you could bear in mind that traditional American principles involve Democracy, Equality, Human Rights, Freedom of Religion, Freedom of the Press, and all of the other things specified in the Declaration of Independence, the Constitution, and the Bill of Rights.
or instead of "bearing it in mind" you could wake up and see all of these principles disintigrating before our eyes.
Moreover,
moreover? really? ok.
even if it were true that Cheney, et al, signed that document, the context in which it was produced is highly relevant. Think about what had happened prior to June 3, 1997.
time to put on our $hit tinted glasses.
The Clinton Administration had gutted our defense budget to dangerously low levels. Military bases were closed all over the nation, leaving hundreds of thousands of Americans without jobs, and many towns that were based around military bases were left with no economic means to sustain themselves.
this is from a completely unbiased source.
I wanted to claim that the economy did a little better under clinton, but i thought i'd better back up my possibly nostalgic memories of that time. funny thing is, while he was in office i hated the prick and all the humanitarian excuses for economicly motivated military actions in south america and lack of action in places that held no strategic interest. Turns out it can be much worse. 
The World Trade Center had been bombed, and Clinton had done absolutely nothing about it.
and yet somehow the whole building didnt implode- wait wrong thread...
Clinton had just handed over nuclear secrets to the Chinese http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1997/10/29/china.summit/, despite their human rights violations, and the Chinese government's open mockery of Human Rights and Democracy in Tiananmen Square.
and yet the chinese are not nuking us? and no action against them has been taken during 8 years of bush.
Oh wait that's right, Bush is too busy selling our childrens childrens asses to the Chinese.
"China's investment in U.S. government debt has more than tripled in the past five years, from $71 billion in 2000 to $242 billion in 2005."
c'mon Bush and China are practically french kissing.
Despite the huge security and economic risks, our nation's dominance in both technology and manufacturing was quickly being outsourced to China and India. There were various other things going on that were outwardly destructive to our stature in the international community. I've only listed a few that came to mind immediately. Many of the long-term effects of these developments can be seen today.
Clinton left a budget SURPLUS. Unemployment was lower during his leadership. The country prospered. Our military went where it was welcome and needed to do important things (in addition to being places where it was unwelcomed and doing dirty self interested things to defend our way of life, but every little bit helps.)
So, in short, I can easily understand why patriotic Americans would have embraced many, if not most, of the principles that are outlined in that "Statement of Principles", especially in December of 1997, but also today.
a lot of germans embraced the principles of a stronger germany and german leadership of the world a little while back, too.
However, I'm not convinced that the PNAC has, in fact, gotten support from any of the people whose names (but not signatures) appear on that web page. Frankly, anybody can make a web site out there, including whoever the hell "platter" is.
mmhmm
Very resourceful, Dustyc. I guess it is a legitimate organization. I have to admit that I'm a little put off by the phrase "global leadership", but otherwise I stand by my comments above.
see my comments above
I'm not sure that promoting American principles globally is a bad thing (unless we're talking about MTV, excessive consumerism, and keeping-up-with-the-Joneses). 
what's left?
Yes, I'm pretty confident, based on your research concerning William Kristol's website ownership, that the membership and names on that Statement of Principles is accurate.
Very big of you Ed.
Now. We have also established that this is not some group of elderly women writing poems about world domination that nobody takes too seriously. This is the reasoning behind our foriegn policy.
the Foriegn Policy that your Government uses your tax dollars to mete out on a chaotic and dangerous yet vulnerable and beautiful world. And you thought it was some fringe group's idealistic and well meaning corner of the internet? Why wasnt the reasoning behind our governments actions made clear to us Ed? Why the need for lies?
I am mad that I have been consistently misinformed for as long as i can remember, although more and more agressively in the past 8 years. I am mad at the media- not for being conserative or liberal, but for being too lazy or beholden to its corporate masters to do its job. I love my country and am outraged that its constitution is being raped (clinton's pardoning of some shady people is nothing compared to the patriot act, suspension of habeus corpus, legalizing torture, unwarranted spying on American citizens, and the first ever attempt to ammend the consitition to DENY a right to certain people based on a religious belief.) by this administration. I love this planet and its people and i want to see them both treated with more respect. The same things made me mad when the clinton administration was guilty of them and they will continue to piss me off until we the people reunite and stop believing the apolitical corporations who like us divided and dont care a lick about conservative or liberal values and certainly dont bother adhering to one or the other on their news programs any longer than it serves their bottom line.
you seem like a good guy- why do we disagree? you are not on their side. if you were you would have a lot more money. so why do you defend them? this more than anything pisses me off to no end. how they get people that would otherwise be great to have a beer with to be my enemy. and that is where my anger comes from- not you. i am not angry with you at all and mean you no ill will.
I suspect that most Americans would be some sort of Libertarian Bull-Moose Republican with socially consious views about healthcare if there was a party (nothing but another corporation) like that to put their vote behind. Instead they are like that with their friends and family and turn into a red stater or blue stater in public. The 50/50 split is an illusion perpetuated by the corporate media and when you think about how much harder it would be to get away with the murder they get away with under that kind of government it is easy to imagine why they'd go through the trouble.
thanks for reading
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