Topic: "Who killed the electric car?" Anyone got a copy of this movie?

[BobbyR]

Ha ha, now you're talking Mick, I've had the XR, (wheezy old 200 cube 6) XY, (GTHO PHIII 4V 351 and running gear from a "write off" in my GS Futura)
XA (302 Fairmont) XB (302 GS Fairmont) and XC GXL. (351)

I'd have any of them back now if I could, but the XY was my favourite, 150 MPH on the Hume Highway on more than one occasion, man, what a car that was!

I've just "inherited" a worked 4V 351 with a cracked piston out of a 1980's race car, all I need now is a car to put it in!

Terry, that 351 is a good motor. Cars to put them in are like fleas on dogs here since they are not really noncollectable.
The hot numbers hare have always been the Corvettes, Chevelle (1970), GTO(1967), any hemi Mopar.
What some fellows did was buy a Falcon with a factory installed Shelby 289 271HP engine. It was quick and cheap.
I owned a 1967 Mustang Fastback with the Shelby motor, it was quick, but not reliable. 

[gerhed]

Many things killed the EV-1. Production and assembly problems being big culprits. My buddy was an engineering technical artist for the project. I had engineering drawings of every part of that ugly little thing all over the walls of my house when he rented my first floor. They tried to model 3-d assembly processes on computer, but it didn't work when translated to the real world production floor. They tried to roll it out too fast. Battery and part supplier problems hampered everything. The rest is history.

I'm not buying that excuse.
Sounds to me like the problems associated with the introduction of almost any new car.
That's what engineering is all about !
Improvise, adapt, overcome !

[Ecosse]

1) I've heard mixed reports about electric heat- never mind energy issues concerning electric cars. My grandmother had an old Beetle (German car not British band member) and it had a little gas engine that made heat for the interior. This was OEM! Anyway, they seemed to have caused problems and cars were retrofitted with electric heaters.

2) I love those Aussie cars! My dream is to have a Ford or a MOPAR imported here. I remember there use to be someone who did just that. Cool stuff! 351's are good engines, no worse a design than anything else. But like anything else there are good years and not so good. I had a 100k 302 (virtually the same thing) in my '69 Mustang in high school. Hammered that thing thoroughly and except for some lifter float after powerbraking for almost an 1/8th of a mile at nearly redline (there was sludge in the oil return holes after all) it never gave up the ghost.

3) MOPARs have a following too don't forget. More now than ever perhaps. I'm a big block guy but owned and loved the small blocks. Many a 340 spanked some big block Chevelles around here.

4) Using epoxy to bond parts is increasingly gaining popularity. Lotus and Ferrari do it extensively just to name a couple. The experts say chemical bonds can be stronger than the material they bond to. Also, it weighs less then fastening via bolts and welds. But, who knows what GM used back then. My feeling is that judging by the way GM use to operate it was likely Elmer's white glue. Ressession or no the way GM ran their company and the crap they pinched out and called cars it woulda only been a matter of time til they hit bottom. Except that Bob Lutz helped a bunch... gotta mention him.
 

[Joel]

One downside is that in the northeast and other places we actually have a winter. How do I heat the interior using an electric car?  

G'Day Bobby, that's easy mate, before the Brits went to conventional heating in cars, they used under-dash electric heaters. (like a little fan heater)

My first car, a 1967 Aussie built (but US designed) Ford Falcon had a heater, but it wasn't fan forced, so took forever to warm the car and demist my windscreen.

I bought an accessory electric fan heater and plumbed it into the Fords vents, and it worked great. Cheers, Terry.

I am with ya mate. Here is my problem. An electric heater would draw down some power from the batteries thereby decreasing the range of the vehicle.
I was looking at some of the buzz about using natural gas. I drove a natural gas Police Car in the 70's and with all the smog crap taken off the motor, it was really quick. With the Natural Gas, I would fuel up the car in my own garage using the gas that comes into the house.
I don't want to be the Ugly American here, but, my first car was a 1955 Ford I bought for $50.00, and it had a heater and a radio. Never saw an American car without fan forced heating and defrosting. 

Energy isn't free.  The heat provided by an internal combustion engine is produced whether you're using it or not.  At least with an electric heater the energy isn't being used when it's turned off.

[Terry in Australia]

I drove a natural gas Police Car in the 70's and with all the smog crap taken off the motor, it was really quick. With the Natural Gas, I would fuel up the car in my own garage using the gas that comes into the house. I don't want to be the Ugly American here, but, my first car was a 1955 Ford I bought for $50.00, and it had a heater and a radio. Never saw an American car without fan forced heating and defrosting. 

G'Day Bobby, well I could yack about US/Aussie musclecars all day but the wife isn't talking to me (again) so I'm going out to the garage to POR-15 Sean's tank.

My Ford work car runs on "dedicated LP Gas" (not gasoline) and I'm quite happy with it, it doesn't have the "grunt" of the gasoline powered version, but at around a dollar a gallon (US dollars and gallons) it's cheaper to run than my bike, and returns around 20 mpg. (US gallons)

I do around 600 miles per week and my last work car (4 cylinder Toyota Hilux) cost twice as much to run as the Ford with it's big 6.

Well I know you're not an "Ugly American" mate, but it was obviously an "Ugly American" bean counter who decided that a fan forced heater in my XR Falcon should be an optional extra, the cold hearted bastard! Cheers, Terry.

[Ecosse]

On behalf of proud Ugly Americans all across... um, America... I take offense to previous statements. I am also disenfranchised that there are no Ugly American smiley faces for which I wanted to place at the end of my statement declaring my offensive...ness?

Come on Terry, you can't blame UA's for your lousy AUSSIE designed Ford. If so you guys can't take credit for the cool GM Holden/Pontiac GTO and similar derivatives! BTW: I'd love one of your Utes!

LP is great I think for city buses and such, no? 

[Retro Rocket]

Our "lousy AUSSIE designed Ford" weren't that bad. The 1972 Xy GTHO Falcon was the fastest 4 door sedan in the world for over 30 years, not bad for an old Aussie Ford...
By the way, it had the 4V 351 cleveland engine....

Mick

[Ecosse]

Our "lousy AUSSIE designed Ford" weren't that bad. The 1972 Xy GTHO Falcon was the fastest 4 door sedan in the world for over 30 years, not bad for an old Aussie Ford...
By the way, it had the 4V 351 cleveland engine....

Mick

Didn't mean it that way. I was referring to Terry's criticism of the omission of a heater in his Falcon. BTW: I think are way cool and would love to get my grubby hands on!

Mad Max exposed me to your cool cars, GM, Ford, and MOPAR's all. Do you guys really drive around with petrol drums in your boot and shoot cross bows at each other all day?

[Retro Rocket]

No crossbows, but with fuel prices the way they are going i am expecting to see a few more 40 gallon drums.....

Mick

[syth82]

Figured I'd throw in my $.02

First off, the prius uses both a gas engine and the electric motor to drive the vehicle, and as I understand, either or both can be working at a given time. Ie, gas engine driving the car alone, electric motor driving the vehicle alone, or both driving the car togeather. Vehicles like the vue or malibu run on the gas engine ALL the time, but the electric motor can cut in to help out. (BMW has a hybrid 7 series under development that, as I understand, works similarily) The volt is unique in that it works more like a deisel train. The electric motor is the only driving motor. The gas engine comes on ONLY to drive a generator and charge the batteries.

On a seperate note, IMHO, while Lutz helped bring some identity to GM and a few nice cars (I love the solstice/sky) he also was a big factor in their resistance to building more fuel efficient vehicles. He's as much to blame for their current situation as anyone else. Again that's just my opinion. Please recall the "hummer" brand came to being under his direction as well.
-Luke

[Joel]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive

I don't know that the Prius has any way of locking the drivetrain to allow conventional ICE only operation but from the link above it looks as if there is a mechanical connection between the ICE and wheels which is controlled through the electric motors.  The Volt as I understand it has no mechanical connection.

[Ecosse]

Figured I'd throw in my $.02

First off, the prius uses both a gas engine and the electric motor to drive the vehicle, and as I understand, either or both can be working at a given time. Ie, gas engine driving the car alone, electric motor driving the vehicle alone, or both driving the car togeather. Vehicles like the vue or malibu run on the gas engine ALL the time, but the electric motor can cut in to help out. (BMW has a hybrid 7 series under development that, as I understand, works similarily) The volt is unique in that it works more like a deisel train. The electric motor is the only driving motor. The gas engine comes on ONLY to drive a generator and charge the batteries.

On a seperate note, IMHO, while Lutz helped bring some identity to GM and a few nice cars (I love the solstice/sky) he also was a big factor in their resistance to building more fuel efficient vehicles. He's as much to blame for their current situation as anyone else. Again that's just my opinion. Please recall the "hummer" brand came to being under his direction as well.
-Luke

Interesting difference in hybrids, thanks for pointing out. The Volt system seems like a good approach. Yeah I agree about the craziness of the SUV... uh, craziness.

As I understand it, and to oversimplify a bit, two major things drove the SUV cult. One is when the Fed tried to punish the well off by taxing the luxury segment hoping to deter buying them or sucking more cash from the people who do buy them the auto manufacturers saw a loop hole. They just slapped all that leather and power window stuff on trucks and marked them aggressively so as to appeal to the public. The SUV segment as we know it was born.

The other thing is that with a healthy economy for so long  many Americans helped perpetuate the stereotype of the ugly American and bought into the marketing thinking "hey, I need this big beast." Hate to say it but most I saw driving them were 5 foot tall women who needed  "a command of the road"... true and often repeated quote people, and always empty cargo area.

OK enough rant. You made good points IMO syth82.   

[Joel]

I'm sure another part of the craze has been cheap fuel in America.  There really hasn't been any financial deterrent to driving one until fuel prices started to sharply rise.  Unfortunately, stewardship of environment and resources just doesn't matter to the majority of America.

[Ecosse]

I'm sure another part of the craze has been cheap fuel in America.  There really hasn't been any financial deterrent to driving one until fuel prices started to sharply rise.  Unfortunately, stewardship of environment and resources just doesn't matter to the majority of America.

Certainly added to the whole thing. I agree people tend to be self absorbed. If for example our cousins across the water had the economy, geography, and tax system the US has they'd be Ugly Americans too.

But if ya think about it people are going to drive what they want and if the Fed didn't try to legislate an Eco conscience the moneyed would be driving more luxury cars than trucks. In many cases this would result in lower emissions but more so would be less fuel usage. A De'ville sucks less gas than an Escalade I'll guess. Besides those SUV's tend to fare less well in crash tests. Also, be mindful and beware of the fact government uses taxes partly to manipulate our behavior. When they want us to do something they reduce taxes or give incentives. When they deem something undesirable they tax the snot out of it. I reject using an increased gas tax to change people's habits. You don't teach anyone anything with that method anyway.

My nick picking aside I don't hate SUV's as much as I hate the number of the damn things.

Back on topic one of the wisest things I've seen is the hybrid SUV. They seem to get the most benefit from the technology and so many SUV's ironically are found in urban settings where the hybrids seem to shine.

[syth82]

I, unfortunately, have an suv as my primary transportation. I hate it. The fuel economy is horrible, and I can't stand feeling so disconnected from the road. I only drive it because I have 2 kids in car seats and it was my only affordable (free) option that could fit the family and have room left for luggage (all of my family/friends live 200+ miles away). It replaced my bmw 325 when my second was born, two doors seemed impractical with the rear facing seat.
Anyway, enough with the life story. The point I was origionally going to get to is, as an suv driver, I REALLY can't understand the appeal. Anyone who says they feel safer in one of these things is a nut. It can't turn, can't stop, and is no better in the snow than any awd car with decent tires I've ever driven. /rant
Sorry guys...
-Luke

[Terry in Australia]

On behalf of proud Ugly Americans all across... um, America... I take offense to previous statements. I am also disenfranchised that there are no Ugly American smiley faces for which I wanted to place at the end of my statement declaring my offensive...ness?

Come on Terry, you can't blame UA's for your lousy AUSSIE designed Ford. If so you guys can't take credit for the cool GM Holden/Pontiac GTO and similar derivatives! BTW: I'd love one of your Utes!

LP is great I think for city buses and such, no? 

Ha ha, I love bantering with an Ugly (and Uninformed) American mate, you see, the XR Falcon, was in fact, one of the the last of the US designed Falcons built here, probably the same basic design as the 1964 US Falcon, and still popular here for converting imported 1960's Mustangs to right hand drive, because the XR/XT Falcon steering components are the "mirror image" of their US cousins. I've seen a US 2 door Falcon "Sprint" that looked exactly like the Aussie XR, except that we didn't get the coupe.

Having said that though, I loved that car, it was actually an ex-cop car, (obviously not a pursuit car, it was slower than a wet week in Puckapunyal) it was painted white when I got it, but the original color was pale blue exterior with a blue interior, bench seats, blue rubber floor mats, three speed manual transmission, and (thanks to those ugly American bean counter bastards again) un-boosted drum brakes all round.

I still remember steering off the road to avoid a rear end collision, jumping on the brakes with both boots, and still passing another 14 cars before I actually pulled up, ha ha!

I gave it to my young brother-in-law when I bought an XB GS, (my first V8 Ford) but he didn't like it as much as I did, and his mate wiped it out when he wrapped it around a power pole. His mate survived, but the old Ford didn't.

Yeah, LPG is good for just about any vehicle, very low in emissions, and what's amazing (to me at least) is that it produces virtually no carbon! The oil changes in my Ford ute (my work car) are only done every 6,000 miles, and no joke, that oil looks as clean the day before an oil change as the new stuff! My tail pipe still looks new inside, with absolutely no carbon deposits.

I was talking to an old Taxi owner/driver 28 years ago, he used to change the oil in his cab (gasoline powered) every 3,000 miles, (using Castrol GTX) but after switching to gas he went first to 5000 miles, then 10,000, and eventually 20,000 miles, then took the oil to an industrial chemist to analyze, and was told that it was good enough to put back in his cab for another 20,000! Bloody amazing............ What's an SUV?  

[Retro Rocket]

SUV = sports utility vehicle....

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

So is that like a Commodore SS Ute, Mick?

[syth82]

Slow, ugly vehicle?

Mine is an isuzu rodeo, if that helps.

[Terry in Australia]

Oh, ok, I think we just call them "Four Wheel Drives' here mate? My son has an imported 2002 Ford Explorer, (or "Exploder" as a mate of mine calls them, apparently they've got a bad name in 4WD circles for going up in flames?)

I call it the "Canyonero" after that BUF (Big Ugly Fcuker) on The Simpsons......... 

[BobbyR]

I'm sure another part of the craze has been cheap fuel in America.  There really hasn't been any financial deterrent to driving one until fuel prices started to sharply rise.  Unfortunately, stewardship of environment and resources just doesn't matter to the majority of America.

Joel, i do believe you are right up until now. We do like to live well, we have always worked longer hours than most places, and it is a stressful society. We had cheap gas, we liked a nice ride and good acceleration. The conservation movement was filled with elitist snobs that did little more than point fingers.

Today, it is becoming more mainstream and rather than the elitists pointing fingers average people are thinking. I drove to Boston today and listened to a whole program on the subject. Even Evangelical Christian Churches are preaching about stewardship of the Planet.

The latest thinking is to get smarter about producing energy and maintaining our same standard of living. While this is a global problem, the solutions will come out of the US, not because we are better than everyone else. We consume more than anyone else, if we can "smarten up" all of our energy production and consumption, it can be done anywhere.

As long as I have a comfortable vehicle that I can merge onto on the highway with and do 75mph or so, I don't care what it runs on.

[Patrick]

A significant part of the problem is that we still produce and use energy the same ways we did 80 or even 100 years ago. Mostly coal for electricity, mostly oil and its distillates for mobility. The problem arises because there are more than twice as many humans as there were 80 years ago and many times as many vehicles. We also have China and India and Brazil and other formerly third world countries gearing up their economies. Those new economies support even more power plants and vehicles. Trying to produce enough electricity and mobility for everyone is resulting in incredibly higher levels of pollution.

We have limited choices. We can reduce energy use and mobility and go backward to the 19th century. Of course, that century had problems of its own. I don't know of anyone who still uses coal to heat their home, for instance, and there isn't the issue of how to get rid of all the manure from the draft animals.

Second, we can keep doing what we are doing and continue poisoning our planet with ever increasing amounts of VOCs and NOx from vehicles and sulfides and air borne mercury from coal-powered plants. Especially the lignite plants. The emissions from those things are ghastly.

Third, we can find a new way to produce electricity and a different way to move people around. Wind power, solar power and even (gasp) nuclear power. Electric cars and hydrogen fuel cells (which still don't and may never work).

I don't consider myself snooty, but I have considered myself an environmentalist for more than 20 years. That's when visibility at our beautiful natural parks started to drop because of emissions from power plants. That's when respiratory problems in our major cities started to skyrocket. Ever been to Mexico City? You literally cannot see more than 50 feet because of the haze. And it's all from cars. Ozone levels in Dallas bump up to dangerous levels several times a year, and it's all from cars. It's the same in El Paso and San Antonio.

I love my diesel pickup (I'm a Texan, after all) and I love my bikes, but if there were a practical alternative I would give up the truck and ride the bikes only for weekend pleasure rides. I'd like to think that my grandchildren will inherit a world in which they can breath without gasping.

Rant over. I now return you to your regularly scheduled program.

Patrick

[Ecosse]

On behalf of proud Ugly Americans all across... um, America... I take offense to previous statements. I am also disenfranchised that there are no Ugly American smiley faces for which I wanted to place at the end of my statement declaring my offensive...ness?

Come on Terry, you can't blame UA's for your lousy AUSSIE designed Ford. If so you guys can't take credit for the cool GM Holden/Pontiac GTO and similar derivatives! BTW: I'd love one of your Utes!

LP is great I think for city buses and such, no? 

Ha ha, I love bantering with an Ugly (and Uninformed) American mate, you see, the XR Falcon, was in fact, one of the the last of the US designed Falcons built here, probably the same basic design as the 1964 US Falcon, and still popular here for converting imported 1960's Mustangs to right hand drive, because the XR/XT Falcon steering components are the "mirror image" of their US cousins. I've seen a US 2 door Falcon "Sprint" that looked exactly like the Aussie XR, except that we didn't get the coupe.

Having said that though, I loved that car, it was actually an ex-cop car, (obviously not a pursuit car, it was slower than a wet week in Puckapunyal) it was painted white when I got it, but the original color was pale blue exterior with a blue interior, bench seats, blue rubber floor mats, three speed manual transmission, and (thanks to those ugly American bean counter bastards again) un-boosted drum brakes all round.

I still remember steering off the road to avoid a rear end collision, jumping on the brakes with both boots, and still passing another 14 cars before I actually pulled up, ha ha!

I gave it to my young brother-in-law when I bought an XB GS, (my first V8 Ford) but he didn't like it as much as I did, and his mate wiped it out when he wrapped it around a power pole. His mate survived, but the old Ford didn't.

Yeah, LPG is good for just about any vehicle, very low in emissions, and what's amazing (to me at least) is that it produces virtually no carbon! The oil changes in my Ford ute (my work car) are only done every 6,000 miles, and no joke, that oil looks as clean the day before an oil change as the new stuff! My tail pipe still looks new inside, with absolutely no carbon deposits.

I was talking to an old Taxi owner/driver 28 years ago, he used to change the oil in his cab (gasoline powered) every 3,000 miles, (using Castrol GTX) but after switching to gas he went first to 5000 miles, then 10,000, and eventually 20,000 miles, then took the oil to an industrial chemist to analyze, and was told that it was good enough to put back in his cab for another 20,000! Bloody amazing............ What's an SUV?  

I've been officially skooled... as the kids say! Thanks for the edumacation... some interesting stuff; the LPG stuff especially. I've heard some good things about it but not much in general.

Yeah, SUV is such a transparent marketing label. There have been 4 wheel drive vehicles tarted up many years before "SUV" came along. BTW: loved the "Canyonero" episode!

BobbyR, ya made some good points and well said too.

[Retro Rocket]

LPG actually has a fairly high octane rating {between 100-106 ron} so a dedicated lpg system will get more horsepower than a similar petrol system.

Mick

[Grumpol]

LPG actually has a fairly high octane rating {between 100-106 ron} so a dedicated lpg system will get more horsepower than a similar petrol system.

Mick

What infuriates me is we are sending millions of litres of LPG to china for a couple of cents a litre while we have a fluctuating price at the servo`s of more than 40 cents a litre