Author Topic: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)  (Read 5385 times)

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Offline J.Webster Designs

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soooo i was working on the bike tonight and wanted to make sure i was getting spark. well, I was getting low and varying voltage at the coils.... so i got frustrated and completely tore out the wiring harness and stripped everything off of it.








when i did that i found this....




There are over 20 of these little bastards....... I am going through the harness one wire at a time now making sure everything is according to my wiring diagram.  man do i have previous owners.
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Offline 78CB750CAFE

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2009, 06:32:32 PM »
welcome to the club.
seems to be the #1 thing people F up on these bikes before "we" get a hold of them.
#2 prob being half @$$ed carb cleanings, or worse "rebuilds"
"I believe in the bodies, I believe in the blood, I believe in salt around the rim of the glass because it makes us thirsty, and when we drink, then we all fall in love"
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Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2009, 06:34:58 PM »
I am find this out.... I should have done this from the beginning.
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Offline TheHun

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2009, 06:56:13 PM »
Amen to crappy POs..they suck..they put use through much work..but you know what..there is not a better feeling that you brought your machine back to life...I know I was grinning ear to ear when my CB fired up for the first time since owning it
1978 Honda CB750-K

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Not Running to Running, doing the work yourself= Priceless

Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2009, 07:40:51 PM »
i will be excited for that first pop after doing all this work.... im getting close. but sooo far.
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Offline Hush

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2009, 08:07:11 PM »
Had to strip out my complete wiring loom on my CB650 too, PO made a mess of a heap of connections.
Best of luck following your wiring diagram too, some books just are not quite accurate, my Clymers even has the wrong colour codes.
Luckily Honda looms are not too difficult to repair, you will feel so much more confident in your electrics once you have rebuilt it yourself...good luck....Hush.
I think the thing I most like about motorcycling is the speed at which my brain must process information at to avoid the numb skulls who are eating pies, playing the ukulele, applying make-up etc in the comfort of their airconditioned armchairs as they make random attempts to kill me!!!!!!!

fuzzybutt

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2009, 09:09:27 PM »
that splice is a factory one midnight. the factory used the grey electrical tape inside the wrapping.

Offline Bill Vaughan

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #7 on: February 19, 2009, 09:46:07 PM »
Yeah, I was thinking the same thing - that looks like a factory splice to split the circuit for two devices.

Regardless, it's well worth doing a continuity check tip to tip on all of the wires in the harness.  They tend to develop internal breaks at the bend points.
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Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2009, 05:54:14 AM »
ok.... well i checked all of the wires in the main harness and found them to all be around .7 ohms at any given point on the tips. looks like the problem isn't the main harness.... i will have to break down the harnesses on the controls and find out whats going on in there. the main problem that i am having is that when i turn the kill switch to the "run" position the voltage on the harness drops to around 9 volts. when the battery is at 12.3.... its a brand new battery and is charged up properly. i honestly don't think that it is the throttle side controls due to the fact that if i bypass the kill switch it will do the same thing. I am not sure if my coils have met the end of their life and is causing a short... but they are Dyna 3 ohm and i don't have the money to replace them so i'm hoping that isn't the case. if anyone has any thoughts on what could be doing this i would appreciate the input. somethings that are apparent is that the blue wire for the highbeam is broken off. shouldnt matter as that doesnt effect the coils... when i turn the kill switch to run i hear the coils make a clicking noise sometimes.... and the black/white wire will get hot at the joint if i bypass the kill switch and just put the black/white in the black socket.
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Offline PJ

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2009, 06:44:00 AM »
You didn't mention what year bike you are working on but my 77 had the same problem, was the ignition switch. I would check voltage on each side of the switch. Do you lights flicker sometimes when you switch to run?

Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2009, 06:49:48 AM »
yeah. as soon as i switch to run the voltage drops and the dash lights dim. how should i test the ignition switch?
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Offline Soos

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #11 on: February 20, 2009, 07:35:09 AM »
Thats a STOCK thing?



Has anyone ever gone through a wiring harness and solder/shrink wrapped all of these?
Is it worth the effort?



l8r
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Offline Bodi

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #12 on: February 20, 2009, 07:51:57 AM »
The ignition coils draw a lot of power, so any resistance makes a voltage drop (Ohms law again). There's a lot of wire and several switches in the ignition power circuit. I doubt if your 0.7 ohm reading is accurate though - reading very low resistance is tricky. With your meter on ohms, touch the probes together. There will probably be some non-zero reading, you have to subtract that from the reading of the wire. Analog meters are capable of being zeroed but are not very accurate at low low ohms readings. You need to use a Wheatstone bridge to accurately measure such low resistances.
Anyway, .7 ohms with both 3 ohm coils powered - worst case - at 12 volts is 8 amps load... 5.7 volts lost just in that one wire. (OK, it's more complicated because you would only have 6.3 volts now and thus only 4.2 amps... but then the drop would only be 3 volts ... oops that's a different voltage and drop and everything changes again and my brain hurts...). Whatever, 0.7 ohms per wire is unrealistically high and you'd have very big problems if it was right, some circuits go through several of those wires plus connections and switches.
The harness wire is approximately US 16 gauge size (it's metric and not exactly the same) and has about 0.005 ohms per foot resistance. That's 140 feet to get 0.7 ohms approximately.
The connections, those bullet connectors, have a resistance as well. With clean tight ones this is negligible - but corroded ones have considerable resistance. Resistance + current = voltage drop across the connector. It also equals power and thus heat at the connector. You will likely see many of the plastic sheaths over the connectors have blackened and are not clear plastic any more. This is from the connector heating up and burning the plastic. If the metal gets really hot it loses it's temper and springiness Then the resistance gets even higher, and things can get smoky and maybe flamey.
The same thing happens to the switch contacts, but at leats they get switched - this helps clean the metal contact via them wiping against each other. Short of opening the switch (careful as springs and contacts WILL shoot out) you can get cotact cleaner spray and spritz some inside, followed by some spirited switch turning to help clean the contacts. Once the switch gets seriously resisitive it will overheat and melt/burn the plastic housing and be ruined - this rarely happens though because of the cleaning action during use.
Best thing is to carefully clean all the bullets, male and female. They should be shiny, but don't use sandpaper and remove the tin colored plating to expose bare copper - the copper corrodes quickly and you'll have a new annual chore of recleaning them all. Contact cleaner on a cloth works for the males, a Q-tip works for the females. Use smooth jaw pliers to gently squeeze the female contacts a bit tighter (serrated jaws will cut the plastic sheath), squeeze across the gap so as to close it... not on the gap distorting the cylinder. Put some "dielectric grease" on both male and female ends before reassembly, this helps prevent corrosion but doesn't impede electrical performance. Any auto parts store will have this grease.
The splices do look like factroy work to me. If you look at the Honda (NOT CLYMER OR HAYNES!!!) wiring diagram you'll see where wires are spliced, they show dots where wires meet to indicate a splice. These are rarely any trouble, the wires are soldered and taped over.

Offline mark

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2009, 08:00:16 AM »
Has anyone ever gone through a wiring harness and solder/shrink wrapped all of these?
Is it worth the effort?

If I had the harness that far apart already..... why not.


coils that click? that doesn't sound right. What does the ohm meter say about those?
btw... if coils check ok, you may want to inquire with Hondaman about a ballast resistor as the coil primary should be 5 ohm.

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Offline 78CB750CAFE

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2009, 08:05:08 AM »
Thats a STOCK thing?



Has anyone ever gone through a wiring harness and solder/shrink wrapped all of these?
Is it worth the effort?



l8r
yes and yes
I have also replaced nearly all the stock bullet connectors with high quality weather proof spade type quick disconnects and replaced many of the stock multi-pin connectors with ones I got from an Acura harness (you could also pick up new Deutche (sp?) connectors from JC Whittney, JEGs and the like but it gets expensive and the pin tool is like $20 too...)
Remove any bullet connector that you don't need to disconnect at least once a year and do a soldered/shrink wrapped connection is my general rule of thumb as well.

It took a lot to make my bikes charging system happy with the 3 Ohm Dyna coils, but it was worth it.
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Offline mystic_1

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #15 on: February 20, 2009, 08:07:27 AM »
when i turn the kill switch to run i hear the coils make a clicking noise sometimes.... and the black/white wire will get hot at the joint if i bypass the kill switch and just put the black/white in the black socket.


To me, that sounds like a short, i.e. something's arcing to ground.

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Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #16 on: February 20, 2009, 08:17:57 AM »
can anyone tell me a procedure for measuring the resistance of the coils? my clymer doesnt have anything. the dyna document is a little too technical for me. but if i have to sit down and figure it out i can. i will check the coils resistance and post back in about 2 hours.
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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #17 on: February 20, 2009, 08:26:09 AM »
looks as if to measure the resistane of the coils i measure the primary resistance across the two screw contacts. then measure the resistance across the two high voltage outputs. i will let you know what i find. hopefully im not out 150 bucks on new coils......
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Offline J.Webster Designs

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #18 on: February 20, 2009, 11:14:41 AM »
ok... so i checked the resistance of the coils.... primary was right at 3.4 for both of them... and i was getting strange readings for the secondaries... one was like 37 kiliohms and the other was like 151.1 kiliohms. i called Dynatek and asked what they thought about those readings and he said that the primaries are fine. but he said that he thinks i wasnt taking a proper reading for the secondaries. he said i need to set it on the 20,000 ohm scale?? i dont think my little multimeter does that.... anyways... he said that the secondaries shouldnt effect voltage on the harness. only the primaries could be doing that. do the coils should now be ruled out. i will have to check the dyna ignition its self. he also said that its pretty normal to see a voltage drop of about 1-1.5 volts from the coils being powered on. I will have to inspect the other possibilities. since i have the harness apart already i will probably add on individual systems (i.e. ignition system, charging system, etc... ) so that i can track down problems by individual systems and tackle it that way....

What say you????
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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2009, 07:12:58 PM »
bump
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masonryman

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2009, 07:31:16 PM »
Wiring sucks, I just started my project bike up and I can't get cyl # 2.3 to fire I think I have a bad coil, I am getting ready to order coils, a couple point plate sets and some after market wires :-\

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2009, 08:32:43 PM »
Try this, if you like...
Connect volt-meter across batt., say it reads 12.3v or whatever...put 2 pieces of paper between the points to hold them open ( not grounded )...
Turn-on ignition ( no headlight or taillight connected, ign. only )...any voltage drop ? Should hold full batt. volts.
Ground blue wire ( leave paper in ) with jumper....1 to 2v drop is o.k. ? Repeat with yellow wire.
With 3ohm coils connected, as above, 1 to 2 volt drop would be o.k., but no more if batt. is good. More voltage drop than this?, un-screw the 2 screws that mount the coils ( do both ) and lift them away from ground...goes back to 1 to 2volts drop or same big v. drop?....result HAS to be short in one or both coils. ( internal short to ground or shorted winding ).
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2009, 08:44:15 PM »
I just ordered a CK-1 and a bunch of parts from this place: http://www.vintageconnections.com/ (connectors, crimping tool, etc.)

I hear real good things about the parts.  He also has recommendations on his site for wire. 

I'm in the midst of following the path of some folks here by replacing a few of the potentially problematic parts of the electrical system: fusebox with blade fusebox (ordered 2 of them.. not sure which I'll use: ATCFH and AF-CFB4 from http://www.wiringproducts.com/index1.html) , regulator (with a Ford/Duralast - Autozone part number VR730), still hunting for replacement rectifiers.  I will be replacing the rectifer connector, fusebox connector and the one that dives under the sprocket cover (alternator wiring).  I'm hoping that replacing all of this stuff will freshen up my connections and components enough to spruce up my charging and generally make my bikes more reliable. 

Thanks to many on this site for their recommendations, posts and help on my "project of the moment" alone: HondaMan, ev0lution7, PinHead, TwoTired and I'm sure I've missed some.  This place is positively inspirational.  There is not a friggin' chance I would have attempted any of this without the help and inspiration of this site.   Thanks out to the "administrators" as well. 
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Offline OldSchool_IsCool

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #23 on: February 21, 2009, 06:59:21 AM »

Thanks to many on this site for their recommendations, posts and help on my "project of the moment" alone: HondaMan, ev0lution7, PinHead, TwoTired and I'm sure I've missed some.  This place is positively inspirational.  There is not a friggin' chance I would have attempted any of this without the help and inspiration of this site.   Thanks out to the "administrators" as well. 

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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: soooo.... i got frustrated with the bike tonight.... (pics inside)
« Reply #24 on: February 21, 2009, 07:46:09 AM »
Lest we forget, there is a more.... tangible way to express our appreciation, hit the "Donate" button on the home page!!  Think of the major money this site has saved us all and you personally.  When I say YOU, I mean the reader, not just Gamma.

The "Treasury" button at the top works too. :)
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03 KLR650 - Doesn't do anything very well but.. well.. does everything.