Topic: Beat me or Ban me; It just doesn't matter anymore!

[billybobobrain]

I agree the world is full of crooks, but there are reasons that our jobs are leaving the country. Unions demanding more money, creating inflation by increasing business costs for employers. They out source because they don't have to pay $65.00 an hour for labor, and then have a strike over $0.15 on hour a year later. as a small business owner I paid over $25,000.00 a month in taxes so that the people who work at Wall Mart (they have a choice) can spend there money on cigarettes and beer while the government pays there food bill. Now unfortunately my business didn't work out, I could go to work at Wal Mart , I chose to go back to school, when I get out if a few years, my income will start at over a hundred thousend a year. The people who work at Wal Mart have every right to go to school as I do. In fact I would be happy to pay taxes so they can get pel grants to pay for it, and there food bill. They will pay there fare share when they are done. It just bothers me that some people think they don't have a choice but to work at Wal Mart and make minimum wage.

I think I have said enough, I'm out to...Really.......I'm gone.

[DammitDan]

The fact that you think business owners extort money just shows how ignorant people today are. Its called free market because you are free to make as much money as you can, some people are better at it then others that doesn't mean they are extorting it. Yes there are those who break the law, they get put in jail just like any other criminal. You sound a little bitter about the whole capitalism thing. Maybe you should try and actually start a business and see how people like you extort money from the very company they work for.

Don't you just love the Enron mentality?

If you've ever taken a business class, you would understand that business exists to support both the owner AND the community.  Without the community the business would not exist, and without the business the community would not exist.  The "I'm going to make as much money as I can" mentality is greedy, selfish and unethical.  If a business truly wants to thrive, the owner must realize the symbiotic business/community relationship needed instead of trying to squeeze every last penny out of the consumers.

Now you tell me, would you consider this to be capitalism or communism?

[DammitDan]

And I suppose your for the seperation of church and state?

And I suppose you're against it?

How terrifying that would be, if church and state were no longer separated and the government started making decisions based purely upon dogma and canon without regard for evidence or logic?

Oh, wait.... 

This country may have been founded upon religious principles, but the founders were smart enough to leave their religious prejudice at the door in creating the First Amendment.  This is something which much of America doesn't seem interested in doing anymore.  Freedom of Religion also means Freedom FROM Religion in this country, regardless of what Mike Huckabee or the proselytizing fundamentalist populace says.  Keep your Bible away from my laws and I'll keep my agnostic opinions away from your sermons. 

[Duke McDukiedook]

This country was founded on christian principles? Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute there.
A majority of our forefathers (ones that signed the dec of ind. and constitution) were freemasons and deists. The others were quakers (New York and Pennsylvania).
I would argue to say our country was NOT founded on christian principles, some how people have really, really warped that one in the last 50 or so years.

Kinda like when they snuck the "In God we Trust" on the currency (Hey we gotta be able to separate us god-loving freedom people from those godless commies!).

The problem with corporations now (modern age) is they are multi-national, do not have to answer to any one government, and only have to answer to their shareholders. The most important thing to these corporations is PROFIT, everything else is secondary. When that is the case, bad things tend to happen to people. We are essentially powerless to the almighty profit and quarterly reports. Short term thinking, we need to think long term in everything we do.

[detdrbuzzard]

the truth is this country would be in the same shape regardless who was in office right now king george saw to that. don't bash the unions either, you go work in an auto plant and see if you like getting pain minimum wage doing that work. if i wanted to make what the forgin car company employees make i would have put in an application there. i don't live in china and CANNOT live off chineese wages. in fact just like everyone else here i could use more money not less

[edbikerii]

Let's look back and see what has changed since I left (I shoulda stayed away):

Economy: MUCH WORSE than in the fall of 2008.
Unemployment:  At least 50% higher than the fall of 2008 nationwide.
Stock Market:  Down 50% since the fall of 2008.
Real Estate:  Much worse than fall of 2008.

So, what does Obama do?  In March of 2009, he tells Geithner to get "toxic assets" off the banks' balance sheets.
Surprise:  THAT'S WHAT PAULSEN SUGGESTED WE DO BACK IN SEPTEMBER 2008.
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/treasury_proposal/index.htm

NO SURPRISE:  Those assets are now MUCH MORE TOXIC than they were in September 2008.  The share prices of the banks (which make up the majority of the assets on their balance sheets) are now less than 50% of what they were back in September 2008.  The real-estate that backs those toxic mortgage-backed-securities is now worth much less.  So bailing us out of this fiasco is going to COST MUCH MORE.

FACT:  US BANKS ARE NOT PERMITTED TO LEND (OR OPERATE AT ALL) UNLESS THEY MEET ASSET/LIABILITY RATIOS (BASED ON THEIR BALANCE SHEETS).

WHAT HAPPENED:  September 10, 2008 Treasury Secretary Paulsen put forth a very simple 3 page guideline for fixing the sub-prime lending crisis that involved buying toxic assets off the banks balance sheets so that the banks could once again lend to QUALIFIED borrowers (see link above).  Congress saw a $700,000,000,000.00 pork barrel and earmark opportunity, and they stole that money and redistributed it to the constituents who would yield them the most votes (TARP -- 1400 pages of BS, no purchase of toxic assets), COMPLETELY UNDERMINING PAULSEN'S PLAN.  NOTHING WAS DONE TO GET THOSE BALANCE SHEETS FIXED.  Here we are, six months later, nearly TWO TRILLION DOLLARS IN THE HOLE, and now Obama suggests that we do EXACTLY WHAT PAULSEN SUGGESTED IN SEPTEMBER 2008!!!!

If PAULSEN's plan, as proposed by Geithner, is to work now, it will require MUCH MORE MONEY to buy up those toxic assets, since everything positive on the banks' balance sheets is now worth much less.

In the meantime Obama used the "crisis" he helped create to push through the biggest spending the world has ever seen, in the name of "stimulus" that hasn't accomplished a damned thing.

Obama's mantra:  NEVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE!

[masonryman]

If this were a true capitalist system maybe the government should stay completely out of the Private sector business and let the pieces fall were they may.

Predatory practice is what put them in this mess let them go work with the people they were praying on for help.

If you don't think King Bush the II as well as King Bush  enginered the gas crisis, the real cause of the financial melt down, your crazy. The fuel spike directly added 650.00 a month to my household expenditures and it hard to say about the indirect cost.

[andy750]

In the meantime Obama used the "crisis" he helped create to push through the biggest spending the world has ever seen, in the name of "stimulus" that hasn't accomplished a damned thing.

Obama's mantra:  NEVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE!

Oh dear Ed you really should have stayed away from this one....clearly with all that typing you have forgotten that Obama is offering SOLUTIONS to a crisis that was left by the previous administration which did such a sh$$#y job of running the country -more like running it into the ground? I mean it was left in such a state that the rest of the world didnt think much of you anymore, the Geneva convention was thrown out the window, new laws were made up to allow the torture of prisoners, while the Wall street bankers creamed of the profits... .

Obama would be doing a really crappy job if after only 2 months on the job he had created the current crisis  . Now if YOU have some alternative solutions to offer  that you think will definitely work better (and we want 100% guarentees  )  than what is being proposed then lets hear it....yeah didnt think so....

Easy to criticize, harder to provide solutions.

[azuredesign]

In the meantime Obama used the "crisis" he helped create to push through the biggest spending the world has ever seen, in the name of "stimulus" that hasn't accomplished a damned thing.

Obama's mantra:  NEVER LET A GOOD CRISIS GO TO WASTE!

Oh dear Ed you really should have stayed away from this one....clearly with all that typing you have forgotten that Obama is offering SOLUTIONS to a crisis that was left by the previous administration which did such a sh$$#y job of running the country -more like running it into the ground? I mean it was left in such a state that the rest of the world didnt think much of you anymore, the Geneva convention was thrown out the window, new laws were made up to allow the torture of prisoners, while the Wall street bankers creamed of the profits... .

Obama would doing a really crappy job if after only 2 months on the job he had created the current crisis  . Now if YOU have some alternative solutions to offer  that you think will definitely work better (and we want 100% guarentees  )  than what is being proposed then lets hear it....yeah didnt think so....

Easy to criticize, harder to provide solutions.

+1!

[edbikerii]

Obviously you two haven't read this:
http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/20/news/economy/treasury_proposal/index.htm

[Duke McDukiedook]

You guys need to get beyond the false LRP (left-right paradigm) trap.
Obama is as extension of Bush's policies which was an extension of Clinton's policies which was an extension of Bush Sr.'s policies, etc. etc.
These guys are just puppets for the CFR, trilateral group and bildebergers.
They are just furthering the global, multi-national corporate agenda.
 

[DammitDan]

I want everyone here to put up two fingers.

Now count them.

Notice how it equals the same number of months that Obama has been in office?

And for those of you spouting nonsense about how the $700 billion number was made up, you should read (or listen to) this

[Duke McDukiedook]

The one constant was Keynes' faith in the elite. He generally believed that almost any problem could be solved by getting together young men who had been schooled at Cambridge and asking them to take over. He even wanted Cambridge men to run America, because he didn't think anyone in the U.S. was smart enough. He also didn't like Jews, the French or the working class.

Keynes wrote that these Cambridge-led government boards should do everything from running individual companies to determining how many babies should be born and, cryptically, of what quality. Keynes was, after all, on the board of directors of the British Eugenics Society.

Sounds like an intellectual idiot to me, sooo smart and the poor, sweating masses  are sooo stupid. Keynesian economics failed in the thirties and it will fail miserably now, they pulled the 700 billion dollar number out of thin air Dan. Because it sounded big that's why they chose 700, problem is that is only for one budget year. This stimulus (multi-year) will actually get into several trillion dollars, increasing our deficit and sticking it more to you and me. This stimulus is a big, fat bloated joke.

[masonryman]

well dammit;

                I found it to be an interesting history lesson,

 Dukie,

                I don't know that you can call his legacy a failure

Mark

[DammitDan]

Dukie, if you had read past the end of the first section you might see where the $700 billion number came from.

I agree, Keynes was a narcissistic megalomaniac.  They also said Galileo was an insane heretic.  Does that mean that neither had solid ideas?

You're obviously an anti-Keynesian, and you're entitled to your opinion.  Just don't go around calling for seditious revolution because things aren't going your way.

[DammitDan]

I'll go ahead and post the section of the story for you to read:

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=100018973
"The Keynesian formula is straightforward. First, you estimate how much the economy should be producing — given all the people and factories and offices. Blinder's guess is $15 trillion. Then you look at what the economy is actually producing. He puts that at $14 trillion.

The government shouldn't have to spend the entire trillion-dollar shortfall. That's because of something called the "Keynesian multiplier." Every dollar the government spends produces more than a dollar in spending throughout the economy. If the government pays you to build a bridge, you spend your paycheck on rent and food and so on, and then your landlord and grocer have money. Using Keynesian math, you can figure out exactly how much the Obama administration should spend.

Blinder taps his chalk, winding up his calculations. "That would lead you to conclude that you needed about $650 billion as a stimulus," Blinder says. "Voila! That's the kind of number they're talking about right now. You see it in the newspapers every day, a number in that range.""

[edbikerii]

How many fingers can you stick up to represent the length of time the house and senate have been controlled by democrats?  Remember, Paulsen's proposal in September 2008 was exactly 3 pages long.  After the congress got done with it, it was 1400+ pages, and did NOTHING to fix the problem (didn't remove any of the toxic assets from the balance sheets of the failing banking system).

I want everyone here to put up two fingers.

Now count them.

Notice how it equals the same number of months that Obama has been in office?

And for those of you spouting nonsense about how the $700 billion number was made up, you should read (or listen to) this

[Duke McDukiedook]

I listened to the story originally a couple of weeks ago. I read the entire article again when you first posted it.
His theory failed in the thirties and it will fail now. The only thing that got us out of the great depression was world war 2. We produced stuff, more stuff than the enemies, that's why we won the war. plain and simple. The only thing that will get us out of this depression is if we produce stuff again, not corporate welfare or bogus bailout baloney.

Can we agree on that? That doesn't take seditious revolution, just common sense.

[ev0lve]

You guys need to get beyond the false LRP (left-right paradigm) trap.
Obama is as extension of Bush's policies which was an extension of Clinton's policies which was an extension of Bush Sr.'s policies, etc. etc.
These guys are just puppets for the CFR, trilateral group and bildebergers.
They are just furthering the global, multi-national corporate agenda.
 

Which is what? What do the tri-lats, bilders and CFR have to offer that so many folks in power are willing to sacrifice their countrymen for? I mean, exactly what? Power? They've got that. Cash? They've got that too.

Let's be specific. What did Clinton get out his deal? A big fee for speaking engagements? Or does he get a nice likeness in the grotto? A pat on the back? If it's not a meeting with god almighty and the chance to hump an angel and make giant children what is the appeal?

Help me understand.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Greed power...it breeds more and more. These people can't get enough of it.
Why does Wal-mart want to monopolze the entire retail market? Greed, power.
They haven't sealed the deal yet, still continents to conquer and countries to assimilate. Only since the creation of nation-states and especially trade unions was this kind of control possible. It is getting worse, EU, NAFTA, CAFTA, Asian union, etc.

[ev0lve]

I listened to the story originally a couple of weeks ago. I read the entire article again when you first posted it.
His theory failed in the thirties and it will fail now. The only thing that got us out of the great depression was world war 2. We produced stuff, more stuff than the enemies, that's why we won the war. plain and simple. The only thing that will get us out of this depression is if we produce stuff again, not corporate welfare or bogus bailout baloney.

Can we agree on that? That doesn't take seditious revolution, just common sense.

Yep. But just for reference - The national debt since the late 30's. Handy to have a few million folks making enough money to buy stuff. We've had worse and come out the other end. This will be the same once we stop making money off of money.

[ev0lve]

Greed power...it breeds more and more. These people can't get enough of it.
Why does Wal-mart want to monopolze the entire retail market? Greed, power.
They haven't sealed the deal yet, still continents to conquer and countries to assimilate. Only since the creation of nation-states and especially trade unions was this kind of control possible. It is getting worse, EU, NAFTA, CAFTA, Asian union, etc.

You take a dim view of humans I see. Also, what does it serve a politician specifically in the way of earthly delights to do this? Again, what did Bill Clinton get for his service?

[Duke McDukiedook]

Yeah, nasty side effect of war is it tends to bankrupt countries also- I know that.

Yes, we need to produce things again, manufacturing, durable goods. Quit relying on ze chinese to make all our crap.

[Gordon]

How's about this chart?

Household debt as a percentage of the GDP:

Notice any similarities between 1929 and today?  I think the individual citizen has a lot more to do with the current state of the economy than they're willing to accept.

  

[Duke McDukiedook]

No. Just a dim view of the people in power that abuse that power for themselves and their friends.

I'm pretty sure Bubba ain't hurting for anything right now Iggy, he's doing quite well I think.