Topic: Billet blocks....who will pay...pics added 9/7/09...10/24....2/10

[Bill/BentON Racing]

Nice, hope mine works out well,  appreciate the tips, thanks,  Bill

[754]

Good job,but would have done it on surface plate or glass. Is that one sheet of sandpaper..hard to find big sheets.

[PeWe]

Yes, the equipment could be better. First time on the kitchen table with grinding paper spray glued and taped on flat  thick plywood for concrete mould (Red Board) clamped on the table, no family home at that moment (good for using oven to remove sleeves too as I did another year   ),  worked out very well for head and my 836 cylinder a few years ago.

This time I had to fix the surface  (now in garage) since I had no fiber gasket alternative, the surface must be scratch free and flat. I held the surface flat to the paper and moved carefully in paralell movement to avoid more grinds on the outer sides. Mostly sideways 1-4, 4-1, the other direction caused rocking movement. Marker pen on the important surface several times to verify it grinded off evenly.

It should have been better to have it in a machine that can make a perfect surface, block matching the movements of the rods. I hope it has correct angle.
Surface now has no scratches and not bent.

- Bill,  When letting the pro's doing the block for bigger sleeves they can grind the surface flat and fine too?

I'll report later after 1000km and see if it will leak. If not, all other happy amateurs can do the same and use RCS gasket if the mating cylinder block has a good surface as Mike's billet block. 

//Per

[PeWe]

Update of the street use of JMR Billet block.
2 rides so far. 50km + 50km. Changed oil and filter after the first ride. Really cheap semisynth 15W-40. It got Motul 4100 3000 10W-40 mineral today. No oil leak anywhere! Base gasket as well as head gasket works fine. I'll make min 1500 km more until it will get Red line 20W-50 esther synth. Probably Motul 20W-50 mineral between to continue the break in torture.
 
1005cc the compensation my bike needed for the driver displacement decrease by +50%!!!  Engine + 20% make the trick
Reminds me about my first RC836 with good compression and driver with +30kg less displacement.

Stroked APE crank should fit the bore better, right? Stroke of 69mm closer to the bore.
Engine runs very silent and stable. I hear engine sounds I never heard before, there is almost no chain rattle at all, the typical CB750 sound.

Today very windy day, 150km/h on the road, twisted the throttle on 5:th gear and the speedo showed 180 rather quick without hesitation (despite hard winds) where I released.

-Mike, 2 guys asked about your home page when they admired the nice machined billet block and curvy machine job of the base. 1 of them has a dragbike with RC block, RC327 and compressor driven by race fuel.
I might place your sticker on front fender close to the block...? Maybe APE sticker too so people will understand why the idlle is so smooth!

A NOS RC4-1 to check max power would be perfect.

[PeWe]

Short Review of Billet block used on the street and touring.
I have now done 350km. No oil leak at all, not even a slightest oil dust. RCS base gasket and 72mm MLS head gasket keep oil on correct side. Both mounted dry, only the 2 Honda O-rings on each for oil transport to head are mounted.

Temperature is OK!  100* C is perfect working temperature for the oil, right? (Ambient temp have been 14-18*C)
I had thoughts about the temperature since the billet block has no air ducts between the cylinders as OEM has.  Oil temperature in oil tank is lately mostly around 100*C, sometimes 105*C when driven longer and little bit harder. I have seen max 110*C in the beginning where it got WOT bursts with hard decelerations between as the initial break in and probably higher friction.

The very good temperature transport work really well since billet block has no sleeves. Temperature in all cylinders and combustion chambers are transported really well from bores to colling flanges, out to cases, oil. Metal gaskets will not insulate s fiber gaskets must do.
I will most likely not need to mount my Setrab 13 rows Oil cooler I have had for a while. Maybe for a cool look

Everytime I read and hear about Nikasil bores I get only good words about how superior this is.

Finally:
A billet block is not only for guys on the strip that cannot get an old RC block, work really well as a general CB750 improvement for street use.
I have never heard a CB750 engine that runs that smooth as mine, now with good bottom power!!

[bwaller]

That's a good positive referral PeWe.

[Sam Green Racing]

Awesome report PeWe, congrats on doing what sounds like a first class build.
The only CB750 I've heard that might run as smooth as yours belonged to a guy named Mike Rieck, 

Sam.

[PeWe]

Awesome report PeWe, congrats on doing what sounds like a first class build.
The only CB750 I've heard that might run as smooth as yours belonged to a guy named Mike Rieck, 

Sam.

I think his fingerprints can be found on several of the parts inside my engine  

[MRieck]

Awesome report PeWe, congrats on doing what sounds like a first class build.
The only CB750 I've heard that might run as smooth as yours belonged to a guy named Mike Rieck, 

Sam.

I think his fingerprints can be found on several of the parts inside my engine  

Yes...of course. My favorite part.

[frodef2]

Finally startup on another JMR billet motor.

Frode j



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[kmb69]

Sounding pretty damn good! 

[PeWe]

Look good and sounds fantastic! It will be fun on the road.
RS34 carbs?  JMR ported head too? OK,both of course
EDIT: I found your project thread. I should have found it earlier....

I had another ride today. The torque is really nice and I realized today on a curvy country road that I'm happy I improved my front brake, first time I heard front tire scratching the asphalt when braking. It's fun to twist the throttle with 1000cc Billet block, but the corners are now coming much quicker, thrown right into my face....

I have a feeling that the tires need to be changed more frequently than before
Lets hope for more street bikes with the JMR block.

[MRieck]

 It makes the effort all worth while after I read these posts. It took commitment and work and I did it for you fellas. I just want to thank you guys for investing in the parts. I am not going to be a millionaire making this stuff but I will always have a big smile.

[PeWe]

It makes the effort all worth while after I read these posts. It took commitment and work and I did it for you fellas. I just want to thank you guys for investing in the parts. I am not going to be a millionaire making this stuff but I will always have a big smile.

Thank YOU, Mike for the huge improvement  and friendly support you offer the CB750 guys!! Thanks to APE too that offer good cranks where Carillo rods can be mounted to cope with the power. When I returned home yesterday I knew that my bike has never worked as good as it do now. Good power and nice smooth behaviour.  (still using points  + Hondaman ign) 

Your billet block seemed to cost some at first glance.
BUT, the alternative with a Honda std block is not very cheap either plus the risk for an annoying oil leak. Billet block is absolutely leak free and a rigid construction that look really cool. More guys will have a look at my bike this year when visiting bike meetings.

If I should leave a std cyl block to my local shop for removal of sleeves, bore the block, weld the holes between 1-2, 3-4, bore again (or weld the entire area between 1-2, 3-4 before bore, mount sleeves and bore + hone the bores for the actual pistons. I doubt it will cost less than your billet block, Mike. If it does, not very much more for the billet block ready for installation.

The sleeve job must be very good with very smooth and tight surface for the heat transport from bore/sleeves to cooling flanges.
That block will probably get increased temperature with reduced cooling due to the welds, right?
I have an old block where 74mm sleeves have been sitting, bore that for 76mm sleeves will cause some wider holes

Billet block however, has not that problem. The heat from the bore will quickly enter the cooling flanges. MLS and RCS metal gaskets will not encapsulate the heat either. The fat cooling flanges will take the heat. Heat distribution to the case  much be better too too thanks to the metal base gasket.

The only "problem" I have noticed so far has been a clutch slip when gearing really quick and twisting throttle hard. The gearing 2-3 was a little bit too seamless. It need a small pause to let the clutch grip before WOT again. No more almost full throttle gearing

I'll double check the clutch arm (clutch cover) for the initial play it need (It was good when I assembled the engine). I guess the break-in was tough for the cheap chinese made clutch 
I have new EBC fibers shipping to me just for sure, have new plates on the shelf. As it is now the bike runs fine and clutch might be changed next winter if I can resist quick gear shifting and full throttle.

[Syscrush]

I will most likely not need to mount my Setrab 13 rows Oil cooler I have had for a while. Maybe for a cool look

That is great news and kind of shocking to me. I don't know the conditions you ride in vary by much, but I would think that installing that cooler would still be cheap insurance given the specialness of that engine. If you are concerned about overcooling and/or long warmup times, then an oil thermometer like these from ThermoStasis matches well with a 13 row cooler IMO:

http://oilthermostats.com/motorcycle/

I have a 190F unit plumbed with the Earl's 13 row cooler on my CBX, and I'm very happy with it.

[PeWe]

Thanks for the hints. I checked my cooler and it has "only" 10 rows. About temperature so far: I compare with temperature I had before with 836cc.  My car has a contant 100 degrees (212F) water temperature when warm so that must be an ideal engine temperature. I'll see later this year when warmer and how the oil temp will become during a 200 km trip when around 25C. I'm convinced that no cooler is needed for street and touring.

I had to search    (I'll change to a good synth later on so eventual higher temp will not be an issue as I see it after this search. Maybe my contribution to global warming I'll welcome up north)
http://xlforum.net/vbportal/forums/showthread.php?t=675661
 "The optimum operating oil temperature for both engines is actually a temperature range depending upon the ambient temperature and type of riding. Ideally, the bulk oil (the oil in the oil tank) should be between 220 degrees and 250 degrees F during normal operation. This ensures that any water vapor that gets into the oil from the combustion process is vaporized and can be purged from the system by the breathers. For elevated ambient temperatures, the bulk oil can safely operate at temperatures up to 300 degrees F during extended idling or high-speed interstate cruising.

My goal for normal temp is around 100-105C (210-220F) Which is the temp I've seen so far. I've noticed lower temp when I changed to synth from mineral 2 years ago.
http://www.elephantracing.com/techtopic/oiltemperature.htm

[Syscrush]

If you're happy with your temps and confident that you're not going to get stuck in stop and go traffic then I agree you're set!

[PeWe]

Update and let the thread live.
Bike runs really well, but is restricted at around 8000 rpm, probably due to the 4-4 exhaust, HM300 replica with no baffles.
I'll change the needles 1 step down since it runs rich on cruising speed/lift. Thin graphs is cruising speed run with low lift. A/F measured on 3, 4. 3 runs a little bit richer.

An open Lotus root 4-4 will hopefully help to enter the 100rwhp area. Today 93rwhp. The guys at the dyno recommended a good 4-2-1 exhaust. 4-4 look very nice though

Note! Torque is in Nm

[MRieck]

Update and let the thread live.
Bike runs really well, but is restricted at around 8000 rpm, probably due to the 4-4 exhaust, HM300 replica with no baffles.
I'll change the needles 1 step down since it runs rich on cruising speed/lift. Thin graphs is cruising speed run with low lift. A/F measured on 3, 4. 3 runs a little bit richer.

An open Lotus root 4-4 will hopefully help to enter the 100rwhp area. Today 93rwhp. The guys at the dyno recommended a good 4-2-1 exhaust. 4-4 look very nice though

Note! Torque is in Nm

The 4-2-1 Hindle from Ripple Rock racers looks nice Per....check it out. Great fellas to work with too. I have one in my shop waiting for installation (got so much free time). I also think larger carbs would add top end power as well.

[PeWe]

TMR36 or RS34 or xx carbs? I'm sure my 32 can give more with better exhaust breathing. It behave like restricted exhaust as my 4-1 I tried with a silient baffle and top speed changed to 130 from 200 kph with my 836 on Autobahn. I had to continue to Jugoslavia and back with totally open 4-1. My ears rang long time after that since speed was up all the time.

I'll get carbs + 4-2-1 for same $$$ as Lotus Root 4-4 pipes....
But, I might not need more power. It's the principle to squeeze out max.   

[MRieck]

TMR36 or RS34 or xx carbs? I'm sure my 32 can give more with better exhaust breathing. It behave like restricted exhaust as my 4-1 I tried with a silient baffle and top speed changed to 130 from 200 kph with my 836 on Autobahn. I had to continue to Jugoslavia and back with totally open 4-1. My ears rang long time after that since speed was up all the time.

I'll get carbs + 4-2-1 for same $$$ as Lotus Root 4-4 pipes....
But, I might not need more power. It's the principle to squeeze out max.   

The TMR-36's are very nice......I have a set sitting here.

[PeWe]

36 will be ok for the 1005cc and K head with 34mm in valves?
I think I saw a set on the Yamiya750 site a while ago.


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[MRieck]

36 will be ok for the 1005cc and K head with 34mm in valves?
I think I saw a set on the Yamiya750 site a while ago.


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Yes..that is where I got mine. RS-34 will work too but they are no where as nice as the TMR. Unfortunately the adapters have to neck down ((decreasing ID). You will need different cables for the TMR's. The RS are good (and fit with stock cables) but hard to fit unless you use late K insulators which reproductions are available. I can help you Per if you do need help

[PeWe]

Thanks Mike!
I need the winning numbers for next Lotto getting 10.000.000 USD or more.
I use std throttle device for my TMR32, full throttle in less of a 1/4. If I sneeze when driving slow on 1:st gear, risk for a wheelie.
I'll investigate more. I think that Lotus root pipes will be next step since 4-4 is important look on my old K6.
It is very difficult to stop modifying the bike since I find my dreams here and professional help to make them come true!

1 thing I have noticed. I got oil leaks around oil filter plus some more. Probably due to case breather that enter the oil tank which has no air outlet. I changed back to OEM oil tank dip stick that seems to have over pressure function. Earlier oil tank might be better with bigger bores? I have another K2 tank with free air outlet. Actual K6 is closed.

I hope other JMR billet block guys will chime in with their results!   
//Per

[grcamna2]

Height of the billet block without base gasket same as piston. I measured that the piston is about 0.3mm under gasket surface which corresponds with used base gasket RCS 0.01". Block not tightened. I'll use this gasket. I have also thicker 0.020.

Head gasket however will be the thicker MLS 0.04" . I have thinner 0.03" too just for sure. I guess CR will be OK. Headgasket thickness + 0.010" will be the squish band around the chambers. (chambers ahave diam 65mm)

looks nice