Topic: lack of zinc in engine oil....

[JLeather]

This is why I run STP in my vette engine.  High-lift flat-tappet and really stiff springs.  STP replaces the ZDDP, but unfortunately it also has a bunch of friction-additives that are great for the vette but not for the bike (stupid wet clutch).  I guess my new 750 engine is gonna have to run some of this ZddPlus as well.

[bwaller]

MRieck's request to not turn this into an oil thread might be tough. I think we need to take a logical step in this whole additive deal, because it is a real serious issue.

Making oil changes into a witches brew isn't.

Sam dislikes the thought of diesel oils, and I respect his opinion. In my CB/four streetbikes I have been using Castrol diesel oil with API service CI-4...... and haven't had clutch issues.

I don't mind switching to m/cycle specific with ZddPlus if this is considered an intelligent choice, but we better be damn sure we know how much Zn is in the oil first before dumping this additive willy-nilly.
 

[Inigo Montoya]

I would have to agree with bwaller. I have been using the rotella synthetic and I never have clutch slip.
Us old car/bike lovers cant just dump whatever additives in we want. We need better info. Lets face it, our rides get grandfathered into many laws, if we start dumping additives and such, that may stop. Then where would we be?
Unfortunately we probably have to be BETTER than average people about things like this. But again, maybe that is part of the price we pay for old bikes that are classy and that we can actually work on and customize.

[BobbyR]

You really have to look back 40 years. When these engines were developed and tested. they used the oil and fuel readily available at the time. The oil had zinc and probably other additives in it and the fuel was leaded. The engineers did not look forward to super slippery oils and the removal of metals for catalytic converters. They built motors for the existing conditions. We now have to work with what they built.

I am sure they never envisioned a large number of these bikes these bikes in regular service forty years hence.

[Gordon]

Luckily, since these bikes have aluminum heads, they already have hardened valve seats so unleaded fuel isn't a problem. 

[NitroHunter]

Hmmm, seems like we've been here before...

I've only seen the zinc additive used in autos (it works fantastic for high pressure flat tappet cams but the catalytic converter will plug), so I'm interested in the bike experiences. Our engines can use all wear protection they can get.
I always changed my oil when shifting became 'notchy'. In some cases that was only 500 miles. One evening at the drags, it was 6 passes - cheap oil is bad Karma and I didn't want to cook the bearing and seals in the turbo.
Like Rxman said, many of my pals with high milage bikes have reported noticeably improved shifting once they switched to synthetics.

[Inigo Montoya]

I think a lot shy away from synth because of OLD horror stories. So many tried it but handled it like regular oil and when that did not work, they decided the OIL was bad. Synth does good job cleaning sludge. So if you have a lot of deposits, well then things might get plugged up. Not the oils fault, if anything, it is the owners fault for not being aware of this.

I wonder if a lot of the wear prevented by zinc is matched by synth. My guess is yes but I have no way to test that.

[bwaller]

Time for the all-knowing oil czar with a sohc4 to step up and inform us.

[Inigo Montoya]

I doubt we have one of those. At least not someone with access to all the testing equipment required to conclusively answer the question.

[TwoTired]

I doubt we have one of those. At least not someone with access to all the testing equipment required to conclusively answer the question.

Someone with the funding and research equipment would be the manufacturers and the oil producers, who would rather sell on the basis of a marketing program geared to feeding human emotions rather than logical deductive reasoning, as the emotions predominantly control purchase decisions , especially when qualitative and quantified data is withheld.
Anyway, we used to have some posters in the oil business.  And, some competent researchers.  I think they were all chased away by ranting personal attacks.  And a number of people who are so vehemently "brand loyal" (Its' worked for 40 years) position.  It's why "oil threads" are so contentious.  A solitary voice of reason is simply shouted down by a vocal faction, fueled by marketing hyperbole.

If you search this forum, you might find these past posts.  The info will be dated, of course, what with the constantly changing auto industry formulations, which, IMO plays into the hands of the planned obsolescence viewpoint.

It does make me wonder how much longer I can rely on the "Honda oil for Honda machines" philosophy.

Cheers,

[kghost]

Good point Lloyd.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Called Castrol and they wouldn't give me their zinc content in their normal 4T 10W-40 oil- she said it was proprietary and they wouldn't give that information out.
She said the Castrol GPS and power oil contained a minimum of 1200ppm of zinc additive.
I'm pretty sure the GPS and power oil is more expensive than the regular old 4T and she acknowledged that most oil companies are reducing the amount of zinc additives for the reasons you guys mentioned here.

So I don't know what to do, my last 5 oil changes have been with Castrol 4T 10W-40, should I use a zinc additive without knowing the natural content in the oil?

Anyone know the zinc content in the oils they use?

[Inigo Montoya]

well tt maybe they were chased away, maybe just tired of oil threads? Given some of the toys people here have, I would not be surprised if someone had testing equipment for things like this.  A person could always send their USED oil off for testing to see what is all in it.

I wonder if any of this matters though? I mean, aside from zinc, today's oils are generally better than 40 years ago, in most cases. So given that, if changes are regular, I wonder if it matters that much. I suppose that would be almost impossible to solve given how a person would have to test and even if conditions were met, oil composition will still change.

I see how some lose their minds on oil threads.

[NickC]

If a few people want to pony up some $$$, there are companies out there that charge ~$20 for an oil analysis......

[super pasty white guy]

I've often thought it'd be interesting to pull a series of samples and send them off for analysis.  It'd be great to answer the question of can I get 500, 1000, or 3000 miles out of my oil change (if the sample size required permits this).  If you have company info, I'd seriously consider doing this later this summer.

spwg

[TwoTired]

I mean, aside from zinc, today's oils are generally better than 40 years ago, in most cases.

Please, vb, tell us what scientific or test data was used to formulate and then forward this opinion.  How do you support this statement?

And what cases are those exceptions, implicated in your statement?

And why do you continue to press this toward an oil thread that the O.P. didn't want?

[Inigo Montoya]

tt if you bothered to notice, I did not turn it into oil, THAT was done before me.

AS for my statement, it is my opinion. Where is your proof oil is WORSE than it used to be? Or is that YOUR opinion? I mean come on, you want proof from me you should be ready to pony your own up right?

Does this make you feel better? Oil today is better for todays engines. IS that better?

Plus I merely suggested that zinc levels my not be much of a factor but that oil sample tests might shed some light.
If the test shows possible abnormal wear without zinc, then a person can try the additive. If that helps things out, there is an answer. At least for that person.

What is your problem?

[mark]

Luckily, since these bikes have aluminum heads, they already have hardened valve seats so unleaded fuel isn't a problem. 

Wishful thinking.

The seats are only slightly harder than cold butter.

[HavocTurbo]

Luckily, since these bikes have aluminum heads, they already have hardened valve seats so unleaded fuel isn't a problem. 

Wishful thinking.

The seats are only slightly harder than cold butter.

I actually laughed out loud mark. Funny stuff. 

I called Mobil. They said sorry it's proprietary and hung up on me.

Go figure.

[Inigo Montoya]

Probably the only answer we will get. Not surprising though.

[Gordon]

Luckily, since these bikes have aluminum heads, they already have hardened valve seats so unleaded fuel isn't a problem. 

Wishful thinking.

The seats are only slightly harder than cold butter.

Don't tell that to my K1's near 50K mile valve seats.

[MRieck]

Luckily, since these bikes have aluminum heads, they already have hardened valve seats so unleaded fuel isn't a problem. 

Wishful thinking.

The seats are only slightly harder than cold butter.

Boy is that the truth....especially on the intake side

[BobbyR]

Yeah, I guess we will never know the ultimate oil. Like Ice cream you pick your flavor. I use a Diesel oil since I like the wide viscosity range. In my possibly flawed thinking a Diesel motor takes a pounding and I figure my air 750 motor also takes a beating. While most of my Babe thread posts are Blondes, I really like Brunettes. Go figure.   

[NickC]

I've often thought it'd be interesting to pull a series of samples and send them off for analysis.  It'd be great to answer the question of can I get 500, 1000, or 3000 miles out of my oil change (if the sample size required permits this).  If you have company info, I'd seriously consider doing this later this summer.

spwg

I may be able to get a line on some amsoil test kits, i have a buddy who is a dealer...

[MRieck]

I've often thought it'd be interesting to pull a series of samples and send them off for analysis.  It'd be great to answer the question of can I get 500, 1000, or 3000 miles out of my oil change (if the sample size required permits this).  If you have company info, I'd seriously consider doing this later this summer.

spwg

I may be able to get a line on some amsoil test kits, i have a buddy who is a dealer...

That would be great.