Topic: Off the shelf Fuel Injection for our old bikes

[KB02]

One of the recent threads by a very lucky member mentioned about a Hilborne Fuel injection system.  I did a little research out of couriosity and came up with these results (after a nice e-mail from the company):

Model    *75M4     Price    $1,375.00
*PG150C or *PG150D  Fuel Pump  $575.00 or $605.00
(4) Ram Tubes   $60.00 - $90.00 per set depending on the bore size of the injector
*F1200/149   Fuel Filter      $140.00
END521B-6   Shut odd Valve    $75.00
*END510C   Hi Speed Cut off Valve (alcohol only)   $55.00
They do mot make a pump drive for our Motorcycles but you can get one (at least for the 750) at:
Bailey Chassis Co
Hendersonville, Tn
Ph: 615-822-7041
www.baileychassis.com

Pricey set up, makes me wonder if it's worth it. (I'll be running carbs, thank you).

[JLeather]

Yeah, but Hilborn setups look BAD A$$ man.

[KB02]

Well, there is that...

Also saying, "Yeah, I converted it over to Fuel Injection..." siunds pretty good, too.   

[Soos]

Well, there is that...

Also saying, "Yeah, I converted it over to Fuel Injection..." siunds pretty good, too.   

A line I have YET to be able to say....


$$ is the only barrier so far.









l8r

[Geeto67]

Hilborns are a mechanical fuel injection setup - not what most people think when they hear FI. Good for mostly race setups, lousy as a street induction. You are probably no better off with this setup than you would be with a set of sandcast CR carbs with no idle circuits.

If someone were savy with the megasquirt controller and handy with a tig torch they could make up an FI system for the CB750 no problem costing about half of what a hilborn costs. The hardest part of FI is programming the computer and it is only difficult because it is labor intensive.

Although it is easy to pirate the throttle bodies off of newer sport bikes it is not necessary to have individual throttle bodies for each cylinder. A central throttle body (like one off an OBD I honda civic) and a common manifold with injectors at each intake inlet in the head will work just as well and be simpler to setup.

Putting real Electronic Fuel Injection on a cb750 has another problem however and that is that our alternators flat suck. They do not generate enough juice allow a continously running fuel pump, and fire injectors, run a computer, and all of the lights in normal street use. I can see for Drag racing or LSR racing where it could be a useful tool, but the first time you get caught in traffic the bike will run out of juice fast.  Solving this problem has been one of the reasons why I have not built the system I put together on paper out of junkyard parts. Basically I would need to figure out a way to adapt a charging system from a modern sportbike to the cb750 and I just don't have that time or energy.

On a side note I am trying to solve a similar problem on my cb450 LSR bike so I can run oil pumps for the turbo (the cb450 makes lousy oil pressure - about 15psi max). If I fgure it out I will be sure to let y'all know about it.

[754]

I have seen a couple of Hilborn injected bikes on the street, twins..
 
As far as I know, they only have one choice of jetting, no triple (or more) adjustments like carbs.


geeto, you sould be able to run a beltdrive pump of the cam, or alt side or starter hole.. if you can find or build a pump. Should be doable, helped a guy build a drysump pump for a V8 once. Another buddy when he turbo'd his HD, built a small pump, either to oil the turbo, or evacuate the oil out of the camcover.

[Geeto67]

I have seen lake injector setups on street bikes also, doesn't mean they run great in traffic or at part throttle applications.

With mech FI the way you meter fuel is through pressure regulators, airbleeds, and distrubition blocks. My father used to be a pro at setting up old corvette FI (we still own all the factory tools and gauges from the 1950s) and those have very little adjustment.

I have thought about a mechanical pump but really, I like the electric pump idea because if we blow the motor we can just plug a new cb450 motor into the frame and go right back to racing. One of the goals of this project was to do as little one off fab to the bike as possible so that we could get parts anywhere in the country. Even the electric pumps can be substitued for electric airplane fuel/oil pumps in a pinch (they have a much shorter life) and can be sourced from any decent FBO at a local airport.

[MJL]

Putting real Electronic Fuel Injection on a cb750 has another problem however and that is that our alternators flat suck. They do not generate enough juice allow a continously running fuel pump, and fire injectors, run a computer, and all of the lights in normal street use. I can see for Drag racing or LSR racing where it could be a useful tool, but the first time you get caught in traffic the bike will run out of juice fast.  Solving this problem has been one of the reasons why I have not built the system I put together on paper out of junkyard parts. Basically I would need to figure out a way to adapt a charging system from a modern sportbike to the cb750 and I just don't have that time or energy.

Who was the feller here that did do a newer EFI setup?  Maybe we should drag that post up and see if he's had any street time with it.

[754]

its 750ss, I think.. from N'Awlins..
 
has an ongoing post on project bikes, as far as I know.

The earliest 4cyl bike FI , i recall was the Kawi LTD with the chrome covers, back in the 80s  or so. Just mentioning, in case it has simpler or easier to replace electronics than newer systems. Aslo I think the engine design is closer to ours than the newer stuff with FI

[HavocTurbo]

85 Kawasaki GPZ750 Turbo has FI.

A real archaic set up but it does the job. Might be able to adapt the 750 throttle bodies to our Honda spacing.

Then it's just a question of crank tirggers and powerage.

Come to think of it so does the same year range GPZ1100. And the spacing doesn't have to change to fint the Kawi 750.

[Geeto67]

GPZ750 Turbo, cx500 turbo, and the XN85D turbo were all fuel injected. the Seca Turbo was not.

The Original Z1r-TC was originally planned to be FI  but in the end ran a modified (by ATP) carb/injector (kind of like a mechanical FI or a lake injector but really still a carb).

 the 1980 Kz1000G was the first commercially available japanese Fuel Injected motorcycle. the 1982 cx500 turbo was the second.

The kz1000G FI was horrible. The computers failed if you tried to start the bike with a flat battery (low voltage killed the unit quick) and they were the most common failing part. They cost $1500 to replace back in the day. The second most common failing parts were the fuel pump and the mass air flow sensor. So basically everything that made the FI on these bikes work was junk. Apparently low voltage was a common problem on these bikes because the load of running all this stuff was a drain on the old KZ1000 charging system. Low voltage is also what burned out the electrics so I guess Kawasaki didn't have the FI thing figured out with regards to old bikes either.

I didn't say it was impossible to build a cb750 with modern FI and the stock charging system. I lived in New Orleans for 5 years and I can tell you their worst parade traffic is still not as bad as New York City at 2 a.m. on a week night. As long as you had a really good battery and you were above break even charging for the majority of your ride I imagine you could probably live with a bike like that in New Orleans. However, I once ran down my stock cb750 K5's battery in midtown rush hour so an FI for commuting would be a no go without a beefier electrical system.

[Geeto67]

one more thing - just cause it is old doesn't mean it will work with older bikes. In fact some of the newer stuff is probably better suited to retrofitting on the basis that electrical components have improved in the last 25 years. I betcha the fuel pump on a brand new ZX10 draws less amps than the one on a GPZ750 turbo and puts out more psi too.

But why bother with the weight of four throttle bodies when you can have one throttle body with TPS, 4 injectors, one fuel rail, one fuel pump, an O2 sensor, and your megasquirt computer to run your whole shebang. Get a set of Ken's dual carb manifolds (cyclexchange.net), build a plenum box, weld in injector bungs, slap on a single throttle body and start programming.

Then if you want to turbo the thing it is one pipe into the throttle body from the turbo and robert's your father's brother.

If you really wanted to get advanced get a knock sensor and a dyna2000 so that the 'squirt can retard the timing if the motor starts to detonate.

[HavocTurbo]

Don't get me wrong... I wasn't saying use older stuff. Just might be cheaper. That's all.

If I could, I would buy a whole zx-14 setup and go from there. Or go with the single TB and multi point injection idea, but I dont like to fab FI from scratch. I'm a chicken.

As far as using a turbo on the system....

Everything is dependent on compressor size and your desired HP gains. If you go too big the FI won't be able to deliver, and if you go too small, there's no point in spending all that money on a giant FI system.

In the end you are limited by electrical requirements. If there was a better replacement charging system for every bike out there, we could do things like run batteryless, and FI on everything.

Some things it seems.... are not meant for all this modern stuff no matter what people try.

Now for my 85 GPZ.... I think 250+ HP could be had with GPZ100 throttle bodies, a bigger turbo, bigger injectors, and a Power Commander.... and of course adding a few other parts.

Seeing as how it had FI from the factory, I have a starting point.

[Joel]

I like the mechanical fuel pump suggestion for street use.  Any suggestions on where the shaft power could be taken from on one of these SOHC 4 bikes?

[HavocTurbo]

I like the mechanical fuel pump suggestion for street use.  Any suggestions on where the shaft power could be taken from on one of these SOHC 4 bikes?

One of two off hand.

Left side:

Run a two v-belt pulley for remote alternator and oil pump

Right side:

Get a smaller cog pulley and mount it as the retainer for the points advance mechanism.

Either way electrical would be LOTS easier with a pressure regulator.

[MJL]

But why bother with the weight of four throttle bodies when you can have one throttle body with TPS, 4 injectors, one fuel rail, one fuel pump, an O2 sensor, and your megasquirt computer to run your whole shebang. Get a set of Ken's dual carb manifolds (cyclexchange.net), build a plenum box, weld in injector bungs, slap on a single throttle body and start programming.

I thought of something similar the other day.  to figure the air requirements of the motor, wouldn't you use displacement x rpm x volumetric efficiency? Ignoring VE for a bit, you get 750 x 8000 = 6000000   x .016 = 366000 /12 /12 /12 = 211.8 CFM.

Now let's find a TB that size...

[Geeto67]

Here is a crazy idea......

the 1983 gpz1100 is FI, and can be used to retrofit kz1000s to FI. Dynoman sells manifolds to adapt kz1000 carbs to cb750. I have no idea if the bore spacing is right but theoretically the gpz1100 should have the same spacing for the kz1000 which means you might be able to use those throttle bodies as a bolt on. However, the gpz FI has all sorts of weird sensors like air temp sensor, and is also an antiquated piece of kit.

another crazy idea would be to use the cyclexchange 2 into 1 kit and the throttle bodies off a new triumph bonneville. These are not direct port injection so there is no real performance advantage over a carb but it is still more precise Fuel metering than a carb could ever do. Besides the point of FI is not more power, it is smoother running and operation and less maintenance - lot of people forget that.

the triumph's FI looks like carbs so it would still have a vintage look:

[Geeto67]

I think the nissan sentra Sr20 throttle body flows 220cfm....is that close enough?

[HavocTurbo]

I think that might work Geeto.

[MJL]

Here is a crazy idea......

the 1983 gpz1100 is FI, and can be used to retrofit kz1000s to FI. Dynoman sells manifolds to adapt kz1000 carbs to cb750. I have no idea if the bore spacing is right but theoretically the gpz1100 should have the same spacing for the kz1000 which means you might be able to use those throttle bodies as a bolt on. However, the gpz FI has all sorts of weird sensors like air temp sensor, and is also an antiquated piece of kit.

another crazy idea would be to use the cyclexchange 2 into 1 kit and the throttle bodies off a new triumph bonneville. These are not direct port injection so there is no real performance advantage over a carb but it is still more precise Fuel metering than a carb could ever do. Besides the point of FI is not more power, it is smoother running and operation and less maintenance - lot of people forget that.

the triumph's FI looks like carbs so it would still have a vintage look:

[img width=600 height=399]http://z.about.com/d/motorcycles/1/0/i/c/-/-/09_Triumph_Bonneville_FI_BJN.jpg[img]

All you really need from the bike is the throttle bodies and maybe the fuel pump. In my EFI research it seems the ECM operates from a set of variables that tell how much fuel to give when. In other words, one could program a computer to squirt x amount of fuel at X rpm.  I don't know much about 'Squirt. Most of my knowledge has to do with the GM TBI and TPI.

One of my concerns is the engine temp sensor. I don't know what to do about that since most cars and trucks have them in the coolant, and we are dealing with air cooling. Maybe it could be plumbed into the oil return line and work?

I think the nissan sentra Sr20 throttle body flows 220cfm....is that close enough?

Sounds good, but the number I gave is for the whole motor. Would you build a 4-1 intake manifold for that, or try to adapt a CycleX 2-1 intake?


Injectors, bungs, fuel rail, etc.
http://www.racepartsolutions.com/products.asp?cat=108

[Geeto67]

I had a long conversation once with a guy who worked at summit and built an FI system for his 1968 Dodge Charger. The fruit of this conversation was that to get the best air charge from a single throttle body it pays to have a plenum or chamber. Think about all the FI performance cars you know and their fuel injection - they all have this chamber (the GM TPI from the 1980s is probably the most visible and easy to visualize). Using the Cycle Ex 2 into one intake manifolds - have them terminate at a sheetmetal box and the throttle body on the other side. You can mount the Throttle body any direction along that box it does not matter because the engine will still be drawing air from the plenum.

Something people forget about individual throttle bodies - you still have to syncronize them. It is basically the same procedure as with a carb but people often forget it needs to be done. With a single TB, what is there to syncronize?

On the TI racing FI thumper racebike they substituted the water temp sensor with an oil temp sensor which are commonly available at any speed shop. Basically you just change the temp range in the computer and you should be set. I don't like ambient air temp gauges because they are less consistent and really all you need the temp sensor for is so the motor knows if the engine is hot or cold.

[MJL]

Air temp sensor helps the ECM compute air density, but isn't really needed. GM used it on caprices and eliminated it on trucks of the same year. 

I do like the Triumph throttle bodies. I wonder if they would fit in the carb boots?

As for the intake, those long 2-1 manifolds should help with low end torque, but then again they are long and adding a throttle body to it just makes it bigger. there isn't much room to start with. I'd think it would be better to put the injectors close to the head and just have a throttle plate with a tps sensor somewhere else.


I think we should start with a high output alternator first.

[Soos]

I think we should start with a high output alternator first.

Has anyone found a small car alternator that could be run off a pulley where the rotor currently resides?(and squeeze the alternator under the carbs?)

Is that what the ARD megneto setup basically was?


l8r

[KB02]

Another thought I had to add in EFI, was to switch all of the lights to LED. Would save enough juice to to keep an EFI running in stop and go traffic? I'll admit I'm no whiz in the electronics dept.

[754]

Well thats enough to put me off EFI...

 sounds like mechanical is bulletproof, and way quicker to set up..

[MJL]

Another thought I had to add in EFI, was to switch all of the lights to LED. Would save enough juice to to keep an EFI running in stop and go traffic? I'll admit I'm no whiz in the electronics dept.

I did some searching last night in the FAQ, and found "Your alternator only puts out 150 Watts at 5000 RPM and about 40-50 Watts at idle."

40/14=2.8 amps
150/14=10.7 amps

Every little bit helps.

The Cycle X alternator is a 14 amp unit.


I guess I should find out what the power ratings are for each item, stock and FI.
"5 ohm coils (such as Stock) draw about 33 W. The stock bike normally needs about 100-110 watts without ignition or lighting mods."
110/14=7.85 amps.

By the looks of it, there is a little room. (2.85 amps) switch to the Cycle X alt and we have 6.15 extra amps.

I'm tried to google current draw for each LEDs and incandescents, and I'm not having much luck other than current draw for LEDs is measured in milliamps, and the old  style bulbs measured 2.7 amps. (1157, both filaments on)

5 bulbs times 2.7 amps = 13.5... coils are 4.6 amps... headlight is ... about the same as the tail light. (?)

Comes to 22.1 amps. Something isn't right.

How much extra do we have to run? MS and fuel pump, anything else?

[smccloud]

Rather than run a MegaSquirt, what not use a MicroSquirt that should in theory draw a little less power and be a lot easer to find room for.

[Geeto67]

here is the problem with the cycle exchange alternator.....it is kick only. I am not sure that FI and kickstarters work. I am not sure a kick starter can turn the motor fast enough for the FI sensors to start the engine. Would be interesting to see. I know I have bump started a lot of FI bikes and cars and I wonder how much faster was the engine turning that way.

Magnetos are not alternators. With a Mag the equipment that fires the ignition (coils, points, etc) becomes its own power source. I know on airplanes that magnetos just run the engine and the plane still has an alternator to run everything else. The original intent of an ARD mag was so a cb750 race bike could run batteryless and without coils and points. If you converted your bike to Magneto, you could keep your charging system and dedicate it to powering the FI and the lights, taking the load of firing the engine off of it it just might work.

[jaguar]

Any news on the ideas?

[BLUE71TURBO]

Hey KBO2, It was me that started that post. I picked up a brand new HILBORN injection setup. It consisted of the rare
cast aluminum intake manifold just for the cb750, injectors, velocity stacks, jets, and a brand new pump. I'm going to
take some pictures and post them soon. I checked the site you posted but they don't show any pictures of the drive
setup for the pump. An easy way would be to drive it off of the crankshaft using a belt drive. These setups are not
for the street because there is no idle circut. It makes it a real pain in the a$$ to drive on city streets.
   I was with my friend when he bought the injection setup from Russ Collins at RC Engineering. Real nice fellow.   

[MJL]

here is the problem with the cycle exchange alternator.....it is kick only.

I don't believe this. i haven't called and asked yet, but the website clearly says it works with or without a battery. "Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )" The starter doesn't care what is charging the battery, just that the battery has a charge. I think the website should read "Allows for kick only".

[HavocTurbo]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

[MJL]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

Yes. I'm going to call and ask.

[Geeto67]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

Yes. I'm going to call and ask.

I think the problem with the cycle-ex setup is that it replaces the flywheel on the end of the crank that the electric starter normally turns to get the engine started and that is why it is kick only. It isn't because of a power draw, it is because physically the starter has nothing to turn the crank with.

my progress so far? well.....the Garrett turbo engineer who was helping me lost his job, the turbo rebuilder-FI guru (he builds honda car FI systems from scratch) lost his job and left the stuff at work where I can't get it back. And so far two of the people helping went to rehab and have washed out. They only guy left is my welder and he is busy campaigining his honda drag car this season. So I am by my lonesome without a turbo, piping, a setup, a fuel tank, or a clue. Plus my weekends are booked up till the end of the year. ugh - life sucks.

I think my LSR bike is cursed. I was going to call her "The Jewel of Crown Heights" but now I think she'll have to be the "the Economy's Busted Special". Still all of these have a better sound than the previous name of "the Honda Hand Grenade".

BTW, I take back what I said about kickstarters not being able to turn the engine fast enough - suzuki's TU250 is FI and there is a kickstart option for that bike. I think it is possible to get it to work.

[bistromath]

I think a kick should be easier with FI since you don't depend on vacuum as much to atomize the mix.

I just came here to chime in on the "not enough power" thing. Here's the existing CB750 power budget:

Ignition: 57W (5 ohm coils)
Headlight: 55W
Taillight: 32W
Running lights: 30W
Instrument lights: 16W

Gives you about 200W running power. I don't know what the alternator can put out, but I don't care. Let's just start with this and see how much power we can save.

HID headlight: 35W (-20)
LED taillight: 6W (-26)
LED running lights: 8W (-22)
LED instrument lights: 4W (-12)

Now you have 80 watts for your fuel pump, injectors, and computer, without placing more load on the alternator than the stock setup.

[Geeto67]

I think a kick should be easier with FI since you don't depend on vacuum as much to atomize the mix.

I just came here to chime in on the "not enough power" thing. Here's the existing CB750 power budget:

Ignition: 57W (5 ohm coils)
Headlight: 55W
Taillight: 32W
Running lights: 30W
Instrument lights: 16W

Gives you about 200W running power. I don't know what the alternator can put out, but I don't care. Let's just start with this and see how much power we can save.

HID headlight: 35W (-20)
LED taillight: 6W (-26)
LED running lights: 8W (-22)
LED instrument lights: 4W (-12)

Now you have 80 watts for your fuel pump, injectors, and computer, without placing more load on the alternator than the stock setup.

one would think but some EFI systems and sensors require one or two rotations to initialize and calibrate all the sensors that would normally start the bike. Crank triggers are like this where they have to pass their index sensor (the fized point that triggers them) to figure out where they are in the rotation. The theory (and it is a theory) is that on a crank trigger system the kicker would not be able to turn it over enough revolutions for the motor to figure out where it is and then fire it.

[lone*X]

Lot of development work has been done on the EFI conversion.  Try this from the projects forum:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30624.0

[bikebitzofvt]

Has anyone looked at the EFI systems for snowmobiles?  This isn't something I have much interest in doing myself, just throwing the thought out there...
 

[HavocTurbo]

Has anyone looked at the EFI systems for snowmobiles?  This isn't something I have much interest in doing myself, just throwing the thought out there...
 

Problem is that most of those are designed for 2stroke applications. And would require just as much if not more modifications as a 4stroke version to apply to our bikes.

I'll add something... What about looking at the old GPZ1100 FI applications? They are archaic and simple to say the least. Might be the easiest to adapt.