Topic: Off the shelf Fuel Injection for our old bikes

[MJL]

Another thought I had to add in EFI, was to switch all of the lights to LED. Would save enough juice to to keep an EFI running in stop and go traffic? I'll admit I'm no whiz in the electronics dept.

I did some searching last night in the FAQ, and found "Your alternator only puts out 150 Watts at 5000 RPM and about 40-50 Watts at idle."

40/14=2.8 amps
150/14=10.7 amps

Every little bit helps.

The Cycle X alternator is a 14 amp unit.


I guess I should find out what the power ratings are for each item, stock and FI.
"5 ohm coils (such as Stock) draw about 33 W. The stock bike normally needs about 100-110 watts without ignition or lighting mods."
110/14=7.85 amps.

By the looks of it, there is a little room. (2.85 amps) switch to the Cycle X alt and we have 6.15 extra amps.

I'm tried to google current draw for each LEDs and incandescents, and I'm not having much luck other than current draw for LEDs is measured in milliamps, and the old  style bulbs measured 2.7 amps. (1157, both filaments on)

5 bulbs times 2.7 amps = 13.5... coils are 4.6 amps... headlight is ... about the same as the tail light. (?)

Comes to 22.1 amps. Something isn't right.

How much extra do we have to run? MS and fuel pump, anything else?

[smccloud]

Rather than run a MegaSquirt, what not use a MicroSquirt that should in theory draw a little less power and be a lot easer to find room for.

[Geeto67]

here is the problem with the cycle exchange alternator.....it is kick only. I am not sure that FI and kickstarters work. I am not sure a kick starter can turn the motor fast enough for the FI sensors to start the engine. Would be interesting to see. I know I have bump started a lot of FI bikes and cars and I wonder how much faster was the engine turning that way.

Magnetos are not alternators. With a Mag the equipment that fires the ignition (coils, points, etc) becomes its own power source. I know on airplanes that magnetos just run the engine and the plane still has an alternator to run everything else. The original intent of an ARD mag was so a cb750 race bike could run batteryless and without coils and points. If you converted your bike to Magneto, you could keep your charging system and dedicate it to powering the FI and the lights, taking the load of firing the engine off of it it just might work.

[jaguar]

Any news on the ideas?

[BLUE71TURBO]

Hey KBO2, It was me that started that post. I picked up a brand new HILBORN injection setup. It consisted of the rare
cast aluminum intake manifold just for the cb750, injectors, velocity stacks, jets, and a brand new pump. I'm going to
take some pictures and post them soon. I checked the site you posted but they don't show any pictures of the drive
setup for the pump. An easy way would be to drive it off of the crankshaft using a belt drive. These setups are not
for the street because there is no idle circut. It makes it a real pain in the a$$ to drive on city streets.
   I was with my friend when he bought the injection setup from Russ Collins at RC Engineering. Real nice fellow.   

[MJL]

here is the problem with the cycle exchange alternator.....it is kick only.

I don't believe this. i haven't called and asked yet, but the website clearly says it works with or without a battery. "Single phase system allows battery or battery less operation. ( call for details )" The starter doesn't care what is charging the battery, just that the battery has a charge. I think the website should read "Allows for kick only".

[HavocTurbo]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

[MJL]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

Yes. I'm going to call and ask.

[Geeto67]

Hate to burst your bubble... But the website clearly states that it is a kick only system.

Wasn't this covered in another thread?

Yes. I'm going to call and ask.

I think the problem with the cycle-ex setup is that it replaces the flywheel on the end of the crank that the electric starter normally turns to get the engine started and that is why it is kick only. It isn't because of a power draw, it is because physically the starter has nothing to turn the crank with.

my progress so far? well.....the Garrett turbo engineer who was helping me lost his job, the turbo rebuilder-FI guru (he builds honda car FI systems from scratch) lost his job and left the stuff at work where I can't get it back. And so far two of the people helping went to rehab and have washed out. They only guy left is my welder and he is busy campaigining his honda drag car this season. So I am by my lonesome without a turbo, piping, a setup, a fuel tank, or a clue. Plus my weekends are booked up till the end of the year. ugh - life sucks.

I think my LSR bike is cursed. I was going to call her "The Jewel of Crown Heights" but now I think she'll have to be the "the Economy's Busted Special". Still all of these have a better sound than the previous name of "the Honda Hand Grenade".

BTW, I take back what I said about kickstarters not being able to turn the engine fast enough - suzuki's TU250 is FI and there is a kickstart option for that bike. I think it is possible to get it to work.

[bistromath]

I think a kick should be easier with FI since you don't depend on vacuum as much to atomize the mix.

I just came here to chime in on the "not enough power" thing. Here's the existing CB750 power budget:

Ignition: 57W (5 ohm coils)
Headlight: 55W
Taillight: 32W
Running lights: 30W
Instrument lights: 16W

Gives you about 200W running power. I don't know what the alternator can put out, but I don't care. Let's just start with this and see how much power we can save.

HID headlight: 35W (-20)
LED taillight: 6W (-26)
LED running lights: 8W (-22)
LED instrument lights: 4W (-12)

Now you have 80 watts for your fuel pump, injectors, and computer, without placing more load on the alternator than the stock setup.

[Geeto67]

I think a kick should be easier with FI since you don't depend on vacuum as much to atomize the mix.

I just came here to chime in on the "not enough power" thing. Here's the existing CB750 power budget:

Ignition: 57W (5 ohm coils)
Headlight: 55W
Taillight: 32W
Running lights: 30W
Instrument lights: 16W

Gives you about 200W running power. I don't know what the alternator can put out, but I don't care. Let's just start with this and see how much power we can save.

HID headlight: 35W (-20)
LED taillight: 6W (-26)
LED running lights: 8W (-22)
LED instrument lights: 4W (-12)

Now you have 80 watts for your fuel pump, injectors, and computer, without placing more load on the alternator than the stock setup.

one would think but some EFI systems and sensors require one or two rotations to initialize and calibrate all the sensors that would normally start the bike. Crank triggers are like this where they have to pass their index sensor (the fized point that triggers them) to figure out where they are in the rotation. The theory (and it is a theory) is that on a crank trigger system the kicker would not be able to turn it over enough revolutions for the motor to figure out where it is and then fire it.

[lone*X]

Lot of development work has been done on the EFI conversion.  Try this from the projects forum:

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=30624.0

[bikebitzofvt]

Has anyone looked at the EFI systems for snowmobiles?  This isn't something I have much interest in doing myself, just throwing the thought out there...
 

[HavocTurbo]

Has anyone looked at the EFI systems for snowmobiles?  This isn't something I have much interest in doing myself, just throwing the thought out there...
 

Problem is that most of those are designed for 2stroke applications. And would require just as much if not more modifications as a 4stroke version to apply to our bikes.

I'll add something... What about looking at the old GPZ1100 FI applications? They are archaic and simple to say the least. Might be the easiest to adapt.