Author Topic: Cafe 836 - first build... first bike... (Read 27281 times)

MRieck · « **Reply #75 on:** July 22, 2009, 09:04:09 AM »

I really hate to be the one to tell you this but your countershaft seal is in backwards. Sorry. Everything else looks great. OK.....after going through more pics of your build I see the seal correctly placed when you mocked up the transmission. Unfortunately it appears backwards in the final build pics.

mrosso · « **Reply #76 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:09:57 PM »

Quote from: MRieck on July 22, 2009, 09:04:09 AM

I really hate to be the one to tell you this but your countershaft seal is in backwards. Sorry. Everything else looks great. OK.....after going through more pics of your build I see the seal correctly placed when you mocked up the transmission. Unfortunately it appears backwards in the final build pics.

AAAAHHHH!!! What did I do? Where is the seal you're talking about MRieck? Isn't the countershaft the one that sits between the main shaft and the output/drive shaft? I'm going to die if I have to tear this thing apart again

MRieck · « **Reply #77 on:** July 22, 2009, 03:58:19 PM »

Quote from: mrosso on July 22, 2009, 03:09:57 PM

Quote from: MRieck on July 22, 2009, 09:04:09 AM
I really hate to be the one to tell you this but your countershaft seal is in backwards. Sorry. Everything else looks great. OK.....after going through more pics of your build I see the seal correctly placed when you mocked up the transmission. Unfortunately it appears backwards in the final build pics.

AAAAHHHH!!! What did I do? Where is the seal you're talking about MRieck? Isn't the countershaft the one that sits between the main shaft and the output/drive shaft? I'm going to die if I have to tear this thing apart again

The seal for the shaft that holds the countersprocket....the rubber side should face towards the outside of the engine (like in the mock up pics). I'm sorry

mrosso · « **Reply #78 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:10:00 PM »

Can I change that without splitting the cases again?

MRieck · « **Reply #79 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:25:59 PM »

Quote from: mrosso on July 22, 2009, 04:10:00 PM

Can I change that without splitting the cases again?

Considering the work that has gone into your engine and the way the seal should be installed the answer is no.....I apologize again for bad news but I cannot sit here and say nothing. That seal has a chevron that holds the oil in....it has to be sitting in the correct position. It also has a good amount of crush on it. Another thing to keep in mind when you install a seal like that on a shaft that has sharp splines you really have to put a corner of a plastic sandwich bag over the shaft so you don't cut the seal. I'm posting a pic of the correct installation.
I know this news sucks but believe me better to catch it now. 1 year from now when you know everything is as it should be it will not seem so bad. I know those words seem hollow but it is the truth.

mrosso · « **Reply #80 on:** July 22, 2009, 04:40:28 PM »

Thanks. Well, you're right. At least the motor is not sitting in the frame. It'll be a PITA, but it could be a whole lot worse!

Looking at the pic you posted MReick, it looks like the shaft sticks out a lot farther than the one I have on my engine. Is that normal? Are they different years or something?

mystic_1 · « **Reply #81 on:** July 23, 2009, 05:38:58 AM »

Quote from: mrosso on July 22, 2009, 04:40:28 PM

Thanks. Well, you're right. At least the motor is not sitting in the frame. It'll be a PITA, but it could be a whole lot worse!

Looking at the pic you posted MReick, it looks like the shaft sticks out a lot farther than the one I have on my engine. Is that normal? Are they different years or something?

That may be just a trick of the camera angle. The shaft did change between K2 and K3 but the overall length is the same, they just changed the area where the bearing sits to accommodate the wider bearing in later engines.

mystic_1

MCRider · « **Reply #82 on:** July 23, 2009, 06:03:34 AM »

Quote from: mystic_1 on July 23, 2009, 05:38:58 AM

Quote from: mrosso on July 22, 2009, 04:40:28 PM
Thanks. Well, you're right. At least the motor is not sitting in the frame. It'll be a PITA, but it could be a whole lot worse!

Looking at the pic you posted MReick, it looks like the shaft sticks out a lot farther than the one I have on my engine. Is that normal? Are they different years or something?

That may be just a trick of the camera angle. The shaft did change between K2 and K3 but the overall length is the same, they just changed the area where the bearing sits to accommodate the wider bearing in later engines.

mystic_1

Just throwing out some UC (unsubstantiated crap) I think the shaft on the late later motors with 630 chains were longer, though otherwise the same as far as diameter and spline spacing.

mrosso · « **Reply #83 on:** July 23, 2009, 01:14:49 PM »

Since I have to split this biotch open again, can anyone tell me exactly where the seal goes in this pic?

mystic_1 · « **Reply #84 on:** July 23, 2009, 04:24:43 PM »

Fascinating, I don't think I've seen a case with two notches for retaining rings there. I've seen one inner notch for the narrower (early) final drive bearing, and I've seen one outer notch for the wider (later) final drive bearing, this is the first time I've seen both.

The retaining ring should go in whatever notch matches the width of your bearing. Personally I'd put the seal right up against the bearing, and if you have room for a large snapring in the outer notch to hold the seal (and if the notch goes all the way around the hole) then I'd install one.

Got pics of your shaft/bearing/seal/rings?

mystic_1

MRieck · « **Reply #85 on:** July 23, 2009, 08:37:37 PM »

F2/3's have the 2 notch cases.......is that what you have there?

mrosso · « **Reply #86 on:** July 24, 2009, 01:45:04 AM »

Quote from: MRieck on July 23, 2009, 08:37:37 PM

F2/3's have the 2 notch cases.......is that what you have there?

Whooooh... What does that mean? I got these cases off of ebay, they said they were '76K cases. Am I going to have probs with other parts or fitting the motor in my '71 frame?

voxonda · « **Reply #87 on:** July 24, 2009, 02:43:17 AM »

If the internals are K2-K6 and the cases are F2/3 you have some issues, like the shaft that holds the countersprocket that is held by a wider bearing on the F2/3, K7 engines. What cylinder/head combo do you use? Maybe some work in that department too. Be sure everything is alright, would be a shame to damage these, very nice, parts.
With all the knowledge here it should be no problem getting it alright.
good luck.

Rob

mrosso · « **Reply #88 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:37:23 AM »

Hey guys, thanks for all the expert help... it is much appreciated. Here are some pics of the case numbers and the countersprocket shaft. Am I in hot water here?

voxonda · « **Reply #89 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:21:54 AM »

Hey Mario,

The casings are K7 and not F2 according to the engine number. The countershaft on the K2-K6/F1 sticks out approx. 26mm. At the K7/F2 the shaft sticks out approx 19.5 mm. Due to the way of attachment of the sprocket you need more length with the older types. Safest/easiest solution is to look for the countershaft of a K7/F2, then you are safe.

Regards, Rob

mrosso · « **Reply #90 on:** July 24, 2009, 09:57:09 AM »

Can anyone tell me what model countersprocket shaft I have in this Frankenbeast?

voxonda · « **Reply #91 on:** July 24, 2009, 10:03:33 AM »

Honda made that one, to my knowledge up until the F1. Both the K7 and F types used the one without the groove(?), and with the central mounting bolt. What you can clearely see is what Honda did with the casing. They made the case wider so they could fit the wider bearing. In theory you can mill/grind it off, and go with the setup you have. Then you have no issue with the chainline and can use the 530 chain and sprockets instead of the heavier 630.

mrosso · « **Reply #92 on:** July 24, 2009, 05:04:48 PM »

Quote from: voxonda on July 24, 2009, 10:03:33 AM

Honda made that one, to my knowledge up until the F1. Both the K7 and F types used the one without the groove(?), and with the central mounting bolt. What you can clearely see is what Honda did with the casing. They made the case wider so they could fit the wider bearing. In theory you can mill/grind it off, and go with the setup you have. Then you have no issue with the chainline and can use the 530 chain and sprockets instead of the heavier 630.

Ughhh... So a 530 chain won't fit here without cutting the aluminum out of the raised are on the case? Could I just replace the shaft with a K7 part, and use a 630 chain? Will a 630 chain work with my '71 frame/swingarm/rear hub?

MRieck · « **Reply #93 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:26:41 PM »

Quote from: mrosso on July 24, 2009, 05:04:48 PM

Quote from: voxonda on July 24, 2009, 10:03:33 AM
Honda made that one, to my knowledge up until the F1. Both the K7 and F types used the one without the groove(?), and with the central mounting bolt. What you can clearely see is what Honda did with the casing. They made the case wider so they could fit the wider bearing. In theory you can mill/grind it off, and go with the setup you have. Then you have no issue with the chainline and can use the 530 chain and sprockets instead of the heavier 630.

Ughhh... So a 530 chain won't fit here without cutting the aluminum out of the raised are on the case? Could I just replace the shaft with a K7 part, and use a 630 chain? Will a 630 chain work with my '71 frame/swingarm/rear hub?

There are conversion sprockets.....relax. I'll get some info to you.

mrosso · « **Reply #94 on:** July 24, 2009, 08:48:28 PM »

Quote from: MRieck on July 24, 2009, 08:26:41 PM

Quote from: mrosso on July 24, 2009, 05:04:48 PM
Quote from: voxonda on July 24, 2009, 10:03:33 AM
Honda made that one, to my knowledge up until the F1. Both the K7 and F types used the one without the groove(?), and with the central mounting bolt. What you can clearely see is what Honda did with the casing. They made the case wider so they could fit the wider bearing. In theory you can mill/grind it off, and go with the setup you have. Then you have no issue with the chainline and can use the 530 chain and sprockets instead of the heavier 630.

Ughhh... So a 530 chain won't fit here without cutting the aluminum out of the raised are on the case? Could I just replace the shaft with a K7 part, and use a 630 chain? Will a 630 chain work with my '71 frame/swingarm/rear hub?
There are conversion sprockets.....relax. I'll get some info to you.

Wheeeww!!! Thanks MRiek. I was just about to go into panic mode.

MRieck · « **Reply #95 on:** July 25, 2009, 07:22:47 AM »

Here are some pics to show the difference in the cases. The 2 notch case is from a 78F2/3. The countersprocket is for a 530 chain....it fits right on the late model countershaft....the retaining method is different from the early K's and F. The later countershaft use a washer and bolt arrangement to secure it. You will have no problems with the 530 chain and can use any 530 rear sprocket you want. You don't need any conversion stuff (my mistake).

MRieck · « **Reply #96 on:** July 25, 2009, 07:26:42 AM »

As a side note...the late countershaft is much stronger especially the large bearing. I will be using the F2 cases/countershaft for my next engine which is going to be big. I hope you can relax a bit now.

mrosso · « **Reply #97 on:** July 25, 2009, 09:36:18 AM »

Quote from: MRieck on July 25, 2009, 07:22:47 AM

Here are some pics to show the difference in the cases. The 2 notch case is from a 78F2/3. The countersprocket is for a 530 chain....it fits right on the late model countershaft....the retaining method is different from the early K's and F. The later countershaft use a washer and bolt arrangement to secure it. You will have no problems with the 530 chain and can use any 530 rear sprocket you want. You don't need any conversion stuff (my mistake).

Wow! Thanks! That's some awesome news.

I just put in a bid for a K7 countersprocket shaft. So I should be able to swap that for the '76 shaft and be cool, right? I won't need to shim my rear sprocket or replace the carrier with a later model one? I did a little more newbie research and found out that the K7 uses a different carrier.

voxonda · « **Reply #98 on:** July 25, 2009, 10:00:14 AM »

Yes,it does and with the 10 mm difference.

You see mrosso, everything is coming together.

MRieck · « **Reply #99 on:** July 26, 2009, 12:00:13 PM »

You will also need the late model oil seal for countersprocket shaft as the shaft is thicker.

News:

Author Topic: Cafe 836 - first build... first bike... (Read 27281 times)