Author Topic: What the???? Amazing vanishing oil trick.....sort of (Read 4017 times)

BlackMax · « **Reply #25 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:39:43 PM »

Quote from: Industrial Cafe on July 10, 2009, 06:35:27 PM

hey looking at the bike, front line on the motor goes to the outside port on the tank, and back line inside port on the tank, correct?

Mine ('78 SS) is set up a bit different. The tank has font and rear connections, same as the motor. On mine:

Front motor connected to front tank port
Rear motor port connected to rear tank port

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #26 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:45:38 PM »

there's gotta be something blocking the output, pull and inspect- an hour or two tops.

BlackMax · « **Reply #27 on:** July 10, 2009, 06:57:38 PM »

Quote from: Industrial Cafe on July 10, 2009, 06:45:38 PM

there's gotta be something blocking the output, pull and inspect- an hour or two tops.

'fraid that's all that's left. I'll try draining 1/3 of the oil and replacing with marvel mystery oil, running for a minute and let set, to see if it's sludge that can be disolved. Otherwise, I've got to get my hands greasy again.

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #28 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:01:19 PM »

eff that, you're only postponing the inevitable.
Get em greasy first, it'll put hair on your back!

Patrick · « **Reply #29 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:36:09 PM »

The pan and the pump come off without removing the motor. It's easier if you lay the bike on its side. It is not a hard job. My bet is on that screen on the intake of the oil pump. If that clogs it shuts off oil flow and drops pressure. I know this from experience. I've never had an oil pump quit sompletely, but I have lost pressure because of crud in the screen.

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #30 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:38:32 PM »

crud like top end gasket chunks possibly?
(again don't ask)

Patrick · « **Reply #31 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:42:25 PM »

Or wilted fibers from clutch disks that should not have been reused (I won't ask if you won't).

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #32 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:47:41 PM »

ooh that too

BlackMax · « **Reply #33 on:** July 10, 2009, 07:55:30 PM »

one final thing to think about......since this problem came on immediately after top-end work, where a completely rebuilt head was put on.......... could there be an issue where something was done wrong, that is now not allowing oil to go through the head and then back down into the case, thus also not allowing oil to get into the side-tank (which is the symptom, besides the low pressure light, that I'm experiencing)? You mention gasket chunks......that too makes sense, doesn't it......

Does the low pressure light indicate that the problem must be on the intake side of the pump? Or, could it be somewhere on the other side of the flow?? I'd think it must be on the intake side, right?

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #34 on:** July 10, 2009, 08:11:37 PM »

pop a tappet cover and see if it's is oily up thar.

Patrick · « **Reply #35 on:** July 10, 2009, 08:34:06 PM »

IMHO, the fact that the oil is collecting in the case indicates to me one of two conditions: Either the check valve in the oil pump is shot and the oil is draining directly from the tank down into the case, or the oil is circulating from the tank through the top end and then ending up back in the case and not getting pumped by the oil pump back into the tank. In either case it appears to this humble home wrencher that the problem comes back to the oil pump.

BlackMax · « **Reply #36 on:** July 10, 2009, 10:10:33 PM »

This thing is firing me up!!

Why does every project on which I embark, end up requiring 5x more investment than I could ever expect to recoup upon a sale? It makes me think of my
$40,000 '69 Bronco.....that I could easily unload for $15,000.

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #37 on:** July 10, 2009, 10:46:38 PM »

it's not just you man, it's all of us.
ALL OF US.

you never get back what you put in. that's why you keep it forever.

bucky katt · « **Reply #38 on:** July 11, 2009, 12:16:39 AM »

Quote from: BlackMax on July 10, 2009, 10:10:33 PM

This thing is firing me up!! Why does every project on which I embark, end up requiring 5x more investment than I could ever expect to recoup upon a sale? It makes me think of my
$40,000 '69 Bronco.....that I could easily unload for $15,000.

i have been right where you are in that pic before, both with a .357 AND a can of gas and a flare gun

Inkscars · « **Reply #39 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:23:55 AM »

On a lighter note, It looks so damned sexy, you can still pick up chicks with it. You'll just have to get em to the house first?

mystic_1 · « **Reply #40 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:56:28 AM »

The nipple on the back of the transmission connects to a nipple on the back of the oil tank. This returns oil to the engine from the oil vapor separator inside the oil tank.

mystic_1

HondaMan · « **Reply #41 on:** July 11, 2009, 06:59:17 AM »

OK, let's start at the top:
1. The oil pump's primary rotor pulls oil from the tank and the delivers this under 60 PSI pressure to the filter, then to the long "log" on the back of the cylinders where the oil pressure switch is located. Then it goes to the top end and crankshaft.
2. After the crank bleeds its share out into the crankcase and the top end dribbles its share down the cam chain tunnel to the crankcase, it collects in the oil pan. The sump pump on the bottom of the same oil pump sucks this warm oil up into a second, lower pressure rotor. The ouput of this rotor is split 2 directions by a small wye that directs about 25% to the transmission and the rest back up to the tank for cooling and so the other rotor can get it again.

That's the whole system.

You have something blocking the wye in the pump, or else the screen on the bottom of the pump. Normally, the screen will prevent anything from getting pumped into the wye, causing it to get blocked.

BUT...if too much sealant was used on the cylinder reassembly, it has probably found its way into the screen on the bottom of the pump and blocked it. I have seen many poor mechanics do this sort of thing: the 750 engine requires NO sealant anywhere except between the crankcases, if the gasket surfaces are not damaged. Too many wrenches use it anyway, and far too much. This will ruin those crank bearings in short order, if allowed to continue.

You said the mechanic did not disassemble the bottom end: what work did they do? The only thing you can do to a top end, then, involves pulling head and/or cylinders and changing pistons and rings (or a bore job). Even changing a cam chain requires removal of the crankshaft (unless a riveted master link type chain is used). So, if the only work done was, for example, pulling cylinders for some reason and reinstalling them later, and lots of sealant was used (when none is required), chances are this is the source of the stuff that has blocked the oil pump screen. If there is that much stuff in there, it has probably also blocked the oil passages into the top end of the engine, which will destroy the cam next...these oil jets can be removed and their passages cleaned, but it means taking the engine apart again to do it.

I do too much "forensic reapir" on these engines, caused by today's mechanics... $:-\$

HondaMan · « **Reply #42 on:** July 11, 2009, 07:06:19 AM »

Quote from: BlackMax on July 10, 2009, 07:55:30 PM

one final thing to think about......since this problem came on immediately after top-end work, where a completely rebuilt head was put on.......... could there be an issue where something was done wrong, that is now not allowing oil to go through the head and then back down into the case, thus also not allowing oil to get into the side-tank (which is the symptom, besides the low pressure light, that I'm experiencing)? You mention gasket chunks......that too makes sense, doesn't it......

Does the low pressure light indicate that the problem must be on the intake side of the pump? Or, could it be somewhere on the other side of the flow?? I'd think it must be on the intake side, right?

The low pressure light is indicating a total lack of oil pressure. This is being caused by the empty tank, in your case. The problem here is limited to finding out why the oil is not getting sucked in from the screen on the bottom of the oil pump. It is obviously drowning in oil if it is also coming out of the rear crankcase vent, so the oil is not passing through that screen and into the wye where it goes part to the tranny and part to the tank. This can see easily seen by dropping the oil pan: the whole pump assembly will come out with the pan and the problem will be right there, plainly visible. On the F bikes, the pipes may have to be removed to get the pan off.

BlackMax · « **Reply #43 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:00:26 AM »

Nice overview. Thank you!

Yep, I'll have to yank the pipes and drop the pan. Like you say, the problem will almost certainly be right there. I'm betting on the clogged screen. Since it happened in conjunction with the top-end work (new head and cam), I have to believe it's related, in terms of cause.

I sure hope it's limited to the screen. If there are other clogs causing oil starvation up top, or anywhere else......that's a problem, and one that may sneak up on me when I'm 50 miles from home or worse.

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #44 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:34:53 AM »

I bet if you met hondaman at a dennys, all that would roll up would be a bike, mysteriously balancing and parking itself.

I couldn't find a picture of him, but here's his woman.

mee-yow!

FYI, they don't fit inside the restaurant or eat people food.

Patrick · « **Reply #45 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:46:35 AM »

Hondaman does not really exist, IC. He's a composite character created to drive the narrative....

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #46 on:** July 11, 2009, 08:53:09 AM »

Quote from: Patrick on July 11, 2009, 08:46:35 AM

Hondaman does not really exist, IC. He's a composite character created to drive the narrative....

oh.
I was thinking maybe he was the hive brain of the SOHC4 collective.
He gets switched on when a thread gets too long without answering the question.

BlackMax · « **Reply #47 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:13:09 PM »

well, well, well.....pulled the oil pan and what a surprise I did find.

Actually, I haven't touched it yet, as I want to take a picture. This is the first oil pan I've ever pulled (believe it or not), so I have nothing to compare....BUT, I'm fairly confident that this sets the all time record for most debris clogging a screen. I only took a cursory glance, and then started laughing.....but I'm pretty sure I noticed a boot and a Detroit Tigers baseball cap in there.

I'll post pictures on a separate post.....hysterical.

Industrial Cafe · « **Reply #48 on:** July 12, 2009, 12:18:16 PM »

HAHA! awesome.

been in a similar situation.
WOW LOOKA DEESE!
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=44636.msg465753#msg465753

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Author Topic: What the???? Amazing vanishing oil trick.....sort of (Read 4017 times)