Topic: Front caliper assembly ? Lube or no lube?

[MoTo-BunnY]

so if you mix DOT4 with DOT5, don't you just get DOT4.5?

lol   j/k   

[TwoTired]

so if you mix DOT4 with DOT5, don't you just get DOT4.5?

lol   j/k   

No that's the problem, IMO. Nothing mixes with DOT5, as it is silicone.  No solvents dilute it.  It is a one way change and you can never totally flush it out once it is put in there.  It needs the same replacement schedule as glycol based brake fluids, and DOT5.1 has the same or better temperature specs.  At one time DOT 5 was better.  Then DOT5.1 came along.

The only thing DOT5 still has going for it is it's benign effect on paint, if you should be sloppy and spill it where it doesn't belong.

Having said that, I don't know why DOT3 won't still serve as it has for years.  The SOHC4 brakes don't get hot enough or cold enough to really benefit from the wider operating range DOT4, DOT5, or DOT5.1 offer.

If you switch, be sure to change all the rubber bits throughout the system, too.

Cheers,

[MoTo-BunnY]

Yeah, I knew you can't mix the different types - usually says quite clearly on the brake fluid bottle. I was just being a 'smart bunny'. .. he he. Thanks (as always) for the very informative information, though.

I would like to also add to the brake fluid info, however, that to NOT use brake fluid once it has been open and sat around for a while. The good ole' hygroscopic effect will draw moisture from the air and ruin it in short order. I see people violate this all the time though. . . NOT good. . .

TT - how long do you think an opened and then resealed container of brake fluid is still good for? I know not long but I was wondering if you could even go a few days? (probably not even that in humid climes, if I were to guess)



Also, not relevant to most of you (i'm assuming) is that brake fluid is absolutely ruinous to nail polish. . .turns it all gummy.  

[crazypj]

brake fluid in plastic containers doesn't last as long as in steel containers.
 properly re-sealed it will last longer than a few weeks.
 I think this link has been posted before?
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-brakefluid.html

PJ

[MoTo-BunnY]

brake fluid in plastic containers doesn't last as long as in steel containers.
 properly re-sealed it will last longer than a few weeks.
 I think this link has been posted before?
http://www.motorcycleproject.com/motorcycle/text/cows-brakefluid.html

PJ

Thanks for the link - I hadn't seen it before.

I'm still thinking it probably varies with the clime you are in, though. A few weeks in New Mexico, I'm sure, but I bet only days (if that) in Florida or Louisiana!   lol

[Simpson]

AHhhh rats, I didn't use the lube when I rebuilt my 360 and 750 brakes in the last year.

Now I'll probably have to do it again... 

Didn't know any better at the time.

Good thread, thanks for the informative input

[JS550]

so if you mix DOT4 with DOT5, don't you just get DOT4.5?

lol   j/k   

No that's the problem, IMO. Nothing mixes with DOT5, as it is silicone.  No solvents dilute it.  It is a one way change and you can never totally flush it out once it is put in there.  It needs the same replacement schedule as glycol based brake fluids, and DOT5.1 has the same or better temperature specs.  At one time DOT 5 was better.  Then DOT5.1 came along.

The only thing DOT5 still has going for it is it's benign effect on paint, if you should be sloppy and spill it where it doesn't belong.

Having said that, I don't know why DOT3 won't still serve as it has for years.  The SOHC4 brakes don't get hot enough or cold enough to really benefit from the wider operating range DOT4, DOT5, or DOT5.1 offer.

If you switch, be sure to change all the rubber bits throughout the system, too.

Cheers,

If TT says its to be, then its DOT3 for me! Im getting ready to rebuild my master so I think I'll switch from the 4 to 3.

[JS550]

so if you mix DOT4 with DOT5, don't you just get DOT4.5?

lol   j/k   

Or would it be DOT9??!!

[MoTo-BunnY]

so if you mix DOT4 with DOT5, don't you just get DOT4.5?

lol   j/k   

Or would it be DOT9??!!

lol - there ya go!

[razor02097]

an old painters trick is to displace the air in the paint cans with argon.  Probably wouldn't work for brake fluid as it is after moisture not O2.

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

[MoTo-BunnY]

an old painters trick is to displace the air in the paint cans with argon.  Probably wouldn't work for brake fluid as it is after moisture not O2.

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

I was kinda thinking that too - I thought they went out with those metal oil cans that you had to puncture with the special metal spout thingy?  lol   Wasn't that about the time that Foster's went from the steel cans to aluminum, as well? coincidence?  I think NOT!
(not that I REMEMBER anything like that - just know them from a historical perspective, ya know?  he he he)

[razor02097]

an old painters trick is to displace the air in the paint cans with argon.  Probably wouldn't work for brake fluid as it is after moisture not O2.

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

I was kinda thinking that too - I thought they went out with those metal oil cans that you had to puncture with the special metal spout thingy?  lol   Wasn't that about the time that Foster's went from the steel cans to aluminum, as well? coincidence?  I think NOT!
(not that I REMEMBER anything like that - just know them from a historical perspective, ya know?  he he he)

I have a metal oil can my grandpa gave me.  Its still full and great for garage decor 

maybe brake fluid in a sealed glass container and displace the moisture with nitrogen.... hmmm.... eh its much cheaper to buy new brake fluid 

[MoTo-BunnY]

an old painters trick is to displace the air in the paint cans with argon.  Probably wouldn't work for brake fluid as it is after moisture not O2.

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

I was kinda thinking that too - I thought they went out with those metal oil cans that you had to puncture with the special metal spout thingy?  lol   Wasn't that about the time that Foster's went from the steel cans to aluminum, as well? coincidence?  I think NOT!
(not that I REMEMBER anything like that - just know them from a historical perspective, ya know?  he he he)

I have a metal oil can my grandpa gave me.  Its still full and great for garage decor 

maybe brake fluid in a sealed glass container and displace the moisture with nitrogen.... hmmm.... eh its much cheaper to buy new brake fluid 

He he he. .  .you want to see a couple of oil relics, check these out:
(The Kendall Hypoid Lube is from the 1930s!!! Think it's still good?  LOL  We actually have like a dozen of them, too!)

[Joel]

Also, TT - so you are the one that did the oven test with various greases? I had thought it was HondaMan (unless he did it to) but if it was you, please let me know - I want to cite the correct source! (that test is so cool - well, hot actually)   

I don't know if Hondaman did a test, too.  But, I did a Sil-Glyde/ Dow Corning oven test and posted a report to the old Mailing group list, probably over ten years ago.  Somewhere in my Lotus Notes Archives is...
....The original manuscript (Ha Ha)  I wonder if I can ever recover that from its database?  Oh well...

Cheers,

Would the dropping point temperature be the spec your test was evaluating?  I found a Quaker State multi-purpose/wheel bearing grease that lists a dropping point temperature of 525ºF.  I'd seen 500ºF come up in various discussions of grease for brake parts so I figured it would be sufficient.

[razor02097]

an old painters trick is to displace the air in the paint cans with argon.  Probably wouldn't work for brake fluid as it is after moisture not O2.

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

I was kinda thinking that too - I thought they went out with those metal oil cans that you had to puncture with the special metal spout thingy?  lol   Wasn't that about the time that Foster's went from the steel cans to aluminum, as well? coincidence?  I think NOT!
(not that I REMEMBER anything like that - just know them from a historical perspective, ya know?  he he he)

I have a metal oil can my grandpa gave me.  Its still full and great for garage decor 

maybe brake fluid in a sealed glass container and displace the moisture with nitrogen.... hmmm.... eh its much cheaper to buy new brake fluid 

He he he. .  .you want to see a couple of oil relics, check these out:
(The Kendall Hypoid Lube is from the 1930s!!! Think it's still good?  LOL  We actually have like a dozen of them, too!)

those should be on the nick nack shelf bunny 

I found an old hoppe's oil can



heh hop... hop...hoppe's 

[TwoTired]

Also, TT - so you are the one that did the oven test with various greases? I had thought it was HondaMan (unless he did it to) but if it was you, please let me know - I want to cite the correct source! (that test is so cool - well, hot actually)    

I don't know if Hondaman did a test, too.  But, I did a Sil-Glyde/ Dow Corning oven test and posted a report to the old Mailing group list, probably over ten years ago.  Somewhere in my Lotus Notes Archives is...
....The original manuscript (Ha Ha)  I wonder if I can ever recover that from its database?  Oh well...

Cheers,

Would the dropping point temperature be the spec your test was evaluating?  I found a Quaker State multi-purpose/wheel bearing grease that lists a dropping point temperature of 525ºF.  I'd seen 500ºF come up in various discussions of grease for brake parts so I figured it would be sufficient.

I do not understand the resistance to using the correct substance known to work well and specified by Honda for this application.
Pure Silicone grease is specified because 100% of the compound will not run, weep, creep, or melt up to 400-500 degrees F.  This is important if you don't want your brake pads and rotor lubricated.  I don't know of ANY petroleum based grease that meets that requirement at that high of a temperature, including the wheel bearing greases.  They often weep and creep at room temperature, in my experience, albeit slowly.  The drop point is the temperature where the whole grease becomes liquid.  Which does not guarantee that some portion of the grease won't become liquid at a lower temperature.
Personally, I wouldn't make a substitution based on label claims without testing it first.  
Dow corning silicone grease not only passed my crude test, they actually provided laboratory test/performance data for their product, not just a label claim.  I've never known Quaker State to provide test data for ANY of their products, only label claims that it meets standards/ specifications.

Auto wheel bearings have lip seals to contain the weep/creep/oil separation during use.  I've seen them fail and then drip oil separated from the grease onto disk rotors and pads.  The SOHC4 brake caliper has no such seal.  The grease has to maintain its physical state for 100% of its content in order to keep the pads and rotor clear.  Pure silicone grease does not separate.

To learn more about grease types look here:
http://www.reliabilityweb.com/art04/understanding_the_basics_of_grease.pdf


I need sleep....
 

[chrislib]

I use this stuff @ work all the time,
http://www.castlepackspower.com/Catalog/BrakeMaint/brakelife.html
it might be easier to locate than the DOW stuff.

[crazypj]

Hard to find metal cans of brake fluid.  Most stores I go to have plastic.  I usually buy the small bottles as I need them.  Easier to put in the tool box also.

I bought some DOT 5.1 in metal cans a few months ago.
 Personally, I don't use any type of grease either, as TT says, most cant take the heat.
 As I've managed to melt the centres out of brake pads (genuine Honda) I guess brakes are running pretty 'warm' so don't want to risk anything getting on rotor/pads

[Gamma]

As promised the test on silicon grease SGM494   mil spec XG250.  A quick search shows this grease available in the UK for about 3 quid a tube.  Data sheet says it's good to 200C.
I set the oven to 500C  and popped in a piece of bent aluminium with a blob of this grease on top.  I then opened the oven at intervals and took a quick picture, looking to see if it ran.
It didn't do a lot of anything until about 430C on the gauge that was really 415C/779F as the oven was calibrated and under reading 15C at that temp.
At 430C on the gauge it was just boiling off a little on the contact area with the metal.
I continued up to 500C which is really 480C/896F with this oven. It was now just drying out having run only a very small amount.
I was quite suprised, as I expected it to just all run off or ignite, all that was left after cooling was a white blob of probably hard silicone crystals.
I am attaching some of the pics, sorry about the size.

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02458.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02460.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02463.jpg[/img]]

[Gamma]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02468.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02470.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02471.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02472-1.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02473-1.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02474-1.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02475-1.jpg[/img]]

[Gamma]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02476-1.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02477-1.jpg[/img]]

http://i192.photobucket.com/albums/z293/galaxy8155/DSC02478-1.jpg[/img]]

[Gamma]

This stuff is quite runny when you first squeeze it out of the tube and it looks like it ran a little and spread from the fan in the oven.  I'm not sure how this compares with High Vac.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Looks like you have something comparable to the Dow silicone grease there.

[TwoTired]

At what temperature did it start to run?
It won't do to have ANY of it run into the pads/rotor.

[Gamma]

I am going to repeat this tomorrow with the grease viewed head on.  So I can see it clearly.