Topic: race tech cartridge emulators

[greasy j]

puttin a 37mm gl1000 front end on my 750k1. thinkin about the RT gold valve cartridge emulators. anyone done this?

their site is somewhat confusing, do I just buy the emulators and alter my springs? do I buy springs also that will work with them? or is that unnecessary. could you explain how they go in and what is necessary to install.

it looks like they are about $170. does this include everything I need or is that just the emulators and I have to buy springs also, or other parts? this is for both I hope, and not the price for each.

I know I could just call or email them, but I would like to hear from one of you guys who has used them.

thanks.

[ColinMc]

I have the emulator kit from them, and springs from Sonic Springs. Have yet to install though...you DO need new springs to go with the emulators though or things will get wacky. I'd highly recommend NON progressive springs. Straight rate springs are easier to "tune" to get just right since they have a linear springs rate.

Looks fairly simple to install. I did the same thing with my 250 Ninja I used to have and it transformed the bike. Just make sure you have a good rear suspension too or you'll get odd results under hard riding.

[paulages]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

[IHWillys]

...the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost....

I just thought I'd mention that this is a classic case of a company developing and manufacturing a product in their own country only to have that product shipped off to China where it is copied and then sold for a "fraction of the cost". 

I often read posts on various forums where the loss of the manufacturing base in the US is lamented.  This scenario is only one of many reasons why this loss is occurring but it is a contributor.  I buy Made in China but I also make an effort to not buy it, and am often times willing to pay more for the "original" vs a cheap offshore copy.  It is but one small part of the overall picture but it does matter.

Heck, the degree I earned years ago, Industrial Technology, isn't even offered ay CSU anymore.

Ken

[eurban]

Race tech lists different part numbers for the 750 and the GL.  FEGVS3001 for the 750 and FEGVS3301 for the GL. They also have an adapter listed in the GL fitment page so it may be required as well.  I would doubt that the Mike's XS emulator (which is sized for 35mm forks) will work properly on the GLs 37mm fork.  Paulages, didn't you install the mikexs one in your 750 forks?  What was the result? . . .Racetech has a guide for emulator fitment when your make and model is not one their list.  Here is the link to it:
http://www.racetech.com/HTML_FILES/EMULATOR_FITTING.html
 
Greasy, you know about Google right?  There are a number of sites that discuss the installation and benefits of cartridge emulators.  Google for cartridge emulator and you will see. . . . . If you haven't done so, go to  http://www.randakks.com/
The guy has a great site dedicated to the GLs and has some very interesting performance projects and tech tips.   I traded emails with him a while back and he was going to give the emulators a try on his performance test bed.  Maybe he has done so.  Have fun and if you hurry up, you can do all the leg work and experimentation for me as I will be installing the emulators some time this winter but haven't begun to really focus on it yet

[paulages]

I am running them in my 550 forks, and have installed them on several 750s. I realize the gl1000 forks are 37mm, but the O.D. is irrelevent. It's the I.D. of the damper rod that matters, as this is where the emulator fits and does its thing. There was a previous thread where this was discussed.. I'll look for it when I get a chance.

[ColinMc]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

I'm not saying that progressive springs aren't better than old worn out stock springs, but linear springs are a bazillion times better! You just have to get the fork oil weight, preload and spring rate suited just right for the bike, your weight, riding style etc...if you are gonna get progressive springs, don't bother with the emulators, it's a waste of money.

[paulages]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

I'm not saying that progressive springs aren't better than old worn out stock springs, but linear springs are a bazillion times better! You just have to get the fork oil weight, preload and spring rate suited just right for the bike, your weight, riding style etc...if you are gonna get progressive springs, don't bother with the emulators, it's a waste of money.

I don't quite get your reasoning, but to each his own I guess. Personally i'd prefer linear damping than a linear psring rate, which the emulators provide on the compression stroke anyway.

[greasy j]

thanks for all the info so far. I'm more confused than before, though.

I know about google it's not the same as someone on this site who happens to have a 750 with a gl1000 front end that has already gone through all this and can just tell me, though.

anyways assume I'm open to do whatever will make for the best ride as long as it's not prohibitively expensive. I have some air valve fork caps to do the air assisted thing if I want.

I would rather not have to order a bunch of stuff I may or may not need and try 20 different setups until I find one that works. I would like to hear from someone who has already done this and can say:

buy these size springs from so and so
get this particular emulator kit
use this kind of oil
do this to make it work

wah-lah

[greasy j]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

I'm not saying that progressive springs aren't better than old worn out stock springs, but linear springs are a bazillion times better! You just have to get the fork oil weight, preload and spring rate suited just right for the bike, your weight, riding style etc...if you are gonna get progressive springs, don't bother with the emulators, it's a waste of money.

I don't quite get your reasoning, but to each his own I guess. Personally i'd prefer linear damping than a linear psring rate, which the emulators provide on the compression stroke anyway.

I guess I don't understand fork theory. at all. I will probably have to study up and figure it out myself. it's just that I have to work. a lot. I want to spend my free time doing, not learning. because I don't have that much of it.

it was a lot easier before when I just did everything half ass.

[paulages]

j- i'm certainly no suspension expert. as i understand it, you want a progressive spring rate so that the wheel will respond more quickly to harder and deeper bumps and road imperfections. the stock damper has progressive qualities; however, progressive damping is not the same as a progressive spring rate, and is the opposite of what you want, which is why cartridge dampers were created. with stock dampers, you will experience progressive damping: the harder and faster the wheel hits a bump, the stiffer the damping is. you've probably experienced hydraulic lock when you hit a bump at high speeds and the fluid can't move through the orifices fast enough to allow the springs to absorb the shock and return the wheel to the road. this is controlled by the size of the holes in the damper rod and the weight of the fork oil, but unfortunately the same two things control slow-speed damping as well, which may want something all together different. with cartridge forks the damping rate is linear, or equal for slow bumps and braking dive as it is for high speed bumps. the emulators use this technology for the compression damping, but use the stock holes for the rebound, which is controlled by the weight of the fork oil.

getting it all right is an art.

[turboguzzi]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

I'm not saying that progressive springs aren't better than old worn out stock springs, but linear springs are a bazillion times better! You just have to get the fork oil weight, preload and spring rate suited just right for the bike, your weight, riding style etc...if you are gonna get progressive springs, don't bother with the emulators, it's a waste of money.

the racetech's solve a problem that is totally unrelated to springs:
i.e. If you put thick enough oil to get proper sporty damping, on sharp bumps you'll get huge damping forces. the racetech valve blows off at sharp bumps avoiding the dreaded "orifice limitation" of the stock dampers. period. 

TG

PS, Greasy, what makes you think that other people here dont work hard (and still spend time learning or helping others with info on this forum)?

[greasy j]

j- i'm certainly no suspension expert. as i understand it, you want a progressive spring rate so that the wheel will respond more quickly to harder and deeper bumps and road imperfections. the stock damper has progressive qualities; however, progressive damping is not the same as a progressive spring rate, and is the opposite of what you want, which is why cartridge dampers were created. with stock dampers, you will experience progressive damping: the harder and faster the wheel hits a bump, the stiffer the damping is. you've probably experienced hydraulic lock when you hit a bump at high speeds and the fluid can't move through the orifices fast enough to allow the springs to absorb the shock and return the wheel to the road. this is controlled by the size of the holes in the damper rod and the weight of the fork oil, but unfortunately the same two things control slow-speed damping as well, which may want something all together different. with cartridge forks the damping rate is linear, or equal for slow bumps and braking dive as it is for high speed bumps. the emulators use this technology for the compression damping, but use the stock holes for the rebound, which is controlled by the weight of the fork oil.

getting it all right is an art.

very helpful.

I remember reading about progressive springs and how they become coil bound at different rates to change the rate of spring depending on how far they are compressed and I know that the fork oil has to be pushed though holes and thicker oil will provide more resistance.

all that doesn't help a lot, though when it comes time to order the parts.

I'm going to read the racetech info on their site again. it's pretty confusing, though. for one thing I can't tell if 170 bucks buys you the emulators alone or a kit including the adapters. springs, too? I guess I could email them.

[greasy j]

i can't remember what the conclusion was, but there was a thread about this a while back. if the GL1000 uses the same unit as the 750, then you can use the emulator at mike'sxs.com for a fraction of the cost. i know a couple people were interested in going that route, but don't remember what the conclusion was. gotta disagree with Colin about the progressive springs. they are a huge help up front, and the emulator only adds about 3/4" preload.

I'm not saying that progressive springs aren't better than old worn out stock springs, but linear springs are a bazillion times better! You just have to get the fork oil weight, preload and spring rate suited just right for the bike, your weight, riding style etc...if you are gonna get progressive springs, don't bother with the emulators, it's a waste of money.

the racetech's solve a problem that is totally unrelated to springs:
i.e. If you put thick enough oil to get proper sporty damping, on sharp bumps you'll get huge damping forces. the racetech valve blows off at sharp bumps avoiding the dreaded "orifice limitation" of the stock dampers. period. 

TG

PS, Greasy, what makes you think that other people here dont work hard (and still spend time learning or helping others with info on this forum)?

what makes you think that I think that other people here don't work hard.

of course everyone has to work. I'm just looking for a shortcut. do I suck for hoping that someone who has done this before can let me know what they did?

don't pick fights. we're all in this together and I hope I can help others when I can so they can avoid crap that I had to deal with. nothing wrong with building on each others discoveries and saving each other misery.

[greasy j]

I was just reading an older thread. mcrider says-

"If you buy, RaceTech says use their straight wound springs, not a progressive wind as you'll affect the emulators."

but your bike is still my fave, paul 

[greasy j]

 Have fun and if you hurry up, you can do all the leg work and experimentation for me as I will be installing the emulators some time this winter but haven't begun to really focus on it yet

I just read an old post from january 08 where you talk about emailing racetech for the emulators for your gl front end. almost 2 years. ha ha. I guess you've been waiting for a guinea pig. I can't be the 1st. I know that.

[turboguzzi]

Grease, not picking fights, not my style, just reacting to a comment that might read also as: people, find me answers!

Glad to hear that that is not the point.

So, back to the point, what the emulators do is unrelated to springing,

regretfully for you, you will find advocates for both straight rate and progressives in this forum, emulators or not, not to mention the fact that people also play with oil levels (changes progressiveness even with straight rates), so its very much a matter of taste.

you'll have to try yourself!

TG

[greasy j]

Grease, not picking fights, not my style, just reacting to a comment that might read also as: people, find me answers!

Glad to hear that that is not the point.

So, back to the point, what the emulators do is unrelated to springing,

regretfully for you, you will find advocates for both straight rate and progressives in this forum, emulators or not, not to mention the fact that people also play with oil levels (changes progressiveness even with straight rates), so its very much a matter of taste.

you'll have to try yourself!

TG

it's cool. I figured so. I did find this which was a great help.

http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=29543.50

eurban lists all measurements for the gl1000 forks and there is detailed pics of how these things go in. I am starting to get it. for some reason I thought different sized springs were needed also. I guess I can order the parts without too much worry. I wish the mikesxs ones for 50 bucks worked, though.

[jaguar]

i have progressive springs and xsx catridge.  i have not installed them yet.  fork build will be soon.

i just dont understand the differance in ideas with progressive and cartridge and stock springs with cartridge...
i would have thought that the progressive springs would help the cartridge work better...
im not sure just trying to learn.
thanks for any help

[bucky katt]

has anyone using the cartridge emulators figured out how to do a rod to make them externally adjustable yet?

[paulages]

i'm curious as to racetech's logic with the straight springs, as the springs and dampers serve two different functions. affect each other, yes... but i still don't understand why they recommend the straight rate springs specifically. like TG said, it's a matter of what you like or don't.

[ColinMc]

I think their theory is like mine, they figure anyone who is using the cartridge emulators really wants the best from their suspension. Progressive springs are great for your average rider who isn't even going to notice the difference between progressive and linear springs.

I'm no suspension expert, but the few I always talk to have both told me they wouldn't touch progressive springs with a 10 foot pole. One of which works at Racetech...The emulators are meant to be set up just so to work with a specific fork oil spring, preload..etc. Progressive springs are all over the map. They are a different rate at different times, they aren't predictable to what they will do(from a tuning standpoint).

I'll dig up the technical literature about them...again i'm not saying that progressive springs don't work for people. I'm just saying they are meant to work halfway decent for a lot of different people. Emulators and linear springs (with a rate meant for you!) are meant just that...for YOU! But most people don't ride their bikes on the street to take advange of that anyways so it's a moot point. But if you are buying new emulators and new springs, unless you are getting a killer deal on the (progressive)springs...going with progressive is kinda silly. That and any suspension  place you talk to will talk you out of using emulators and progressive springs. Even if it means losing a sale...so that has to mean something.

[bwaller]

I have progressive springs in my 750 and if that's all you do I think it's a positive. It is also true that the tighter winds get used up instantly when the suspension works leaving less travel for the tightest winds. I've installed straight rate in the forks for my next project with emulators.

Nothing like comparing apples to oranges.

[jaguar]

where do you get linar springs for the cb750 to your size?  i assume there is a rate for your weight right?

[ColinMc]

Racetech or Sonic Springs. I've had good luck with either but usually go with Sonic Springs. With the GL1000 front end I had to measure spring diameter and length and they recommended a rate for my weight, my bikes weight, my riding style...etc...