Author Topic: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)  (Read 7116 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2009, 08:29:58 PM »
The combination reg-rec units I have seen are similar to the Kawasaki and Suzuki regulators of the late 1970s. They consist of a pair of triacs or SCRs that shunt the unneeded current back into the alternator, rather than the battery, hence the term "shunt" (this is an electrical design term). There is another form of "shunt" regulator, a brute-force shunt, that just shorts out the extra current as heat. These types usually have sizable heatsinks to handle that heat. Old Brit bikes have these, as a zener diode shunt. The CX500 Honda also had these, and had pretty short life, as did the alternators on those bikes, from the heat.

The type that are overheating these SOHC alternators are the ones that an electrical designer would call a "Shunt" regulator. I imagine the general marketing industry would call them "solid-state" regulators.

The SOHC regulator system is [electrically termed] a "voltage limiter" system. It monitors the voltage across the coil of the regulator itself (which in this case is the same as Ignition Circuit voltage), using the fixed resistor on the back of the regulator to convert the voltage to a specific current. The coil in the regulator is just a specialized relay that pulls itself open partway, based on the amount of current entering its coil. If it pulls far enough to open the "relaxed" contact, the alternator's field only receives about 1/2 the normal current, so it drops to about 1/2 the normal output power. If the voltage gets too high (above 13.2 volts on these bikes) the coil pulls in all the way and shorts out the field. This makes the alternator output drop to a few tenths of an amp.

The "Reg-Rec" units on many bikes after 1979 consist of a bridge rectifer that uses 4 diodes and 2 SCRs (or Triacs, in some units, which act similarly). These fancy devices act like a diode when turned ON, but act like a high-ohms resistor when OFF. They operate on AC current in this case, and if the Ignition voltage gets above 14.5 volts (typically on these units) they turn ON for the pulse of power from the alternator phase to which they are connected. Their other end is connected to the next winding on the alternator, which at that moment is at a lower voltage than the one being measured (because 3-phase alternators have 60 degrees of AC phase shift from one coil to the next), and it short-circuits the extra power into the next coil. This makes the next coil reduce its output and it "fights back" magnetically at the rotor, which then causes heating in the windings of the coil. Most of the reg-rec units I have seen have just 2 of these phase-shorting SCRs or Triacs, but a few have three as well.

In any case...the field gets turned ON at full current with most Reg-rec units, which is why the output voltage jumps up so high. One solution might be to install one of the Honda resistors from the back of the OEM regulator into the field wire: this would at least reduce the heating overall. The peak voltage would then drop down to something like 13.5 volts instead of the hot 14.5 usually seen. I suppose if I ever get one of these units, I could find a way to test this possibility...

The stock Honda regulators can be adjusted to generate less voltage limiting, which in effect increase the alternator output, too. It would do so without overheating the alternator, too.

...that's why I've started "refurbishing" some of the OEM units: I'm adjusting them for a little higher output, to cope with the [largely] cheaper batteries we are all seeing from China lately. These batteries are coming to Wal-Mart and some auto stores with the Champion label: they have recycled lead in the plates. This makes them store less energy and they "leak" more internally. The result is lower system voltage on vehicles with "voltage limiter" alternator regulators (including old '60s Fords and Chevies!).
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 08:31:41 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

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Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline leekellerking

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #26 on: November 19, 2009, 08:37:37 PM »
Bikey lives!!!  ;D ;D ;D


From 0 volts to 14.1 volts after installing the rebuilt stator.  I think we have a winner!


Lee
My Nighthawk is put together with wire and zip ties, burns oil, and handles like a pig.  I love it!

Offline 70cbk0

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #27 on: November 20, 2009, 06:17:09 AM »
Sorry to hi-jack this thread...Hondaman is this the Reg/rec regulators you're talking about?    http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/part_40964/
 I had thought about replacing my regulator and rectifier on my cb750 K0. are these not so good? Thanks, John
1970 CB 750K0
1969 CB 750K0
1966 CB77 Superhawk
1982 Honda XR200R

Offline leekellerking

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #28 on: November 20, 2009, 08:46:42 AM »
Sorry to hi-jack this thread...Hondaman is this the Reg/rec regulators you're talking about?    http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/part_40964/
 I had thought about replacing my regulator and rectifier on my cb750 K0. are these not so good? Thanks, John

That one looks like the one that was on my bike when I got it.  (And which is probably okay, but I jumped the gun on replacing it).

(Is it a hijack with the OP assists?)   ???
My Nighthawk is put together with wire and zip ties, burns oil, and handles like a pig.  I love it!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #29 on: November 21, 2009, 09:18:19 AM »
Sorry to hi-jack this thread...Hondaman is this the Reg/rec regulators you're talking about?    http://www.davidsilverspares.co.uk/parts/part_40964/
 I had thought about replacing my regulator and rectifier on my cb750 K0. are these not so good? Thanks, John

I'm sorry, but I don't know what is inside of those particular units.

The ones I have 'analyzed' are usually touted to "boost your battery voltage" as part of their fanfare. Those are the reg-rec units I was typing about, above.

Replacing a stock Honda regulator with something that works similarly (like a solid-state field regulator from a Ford) will often raise the battery voltage a little if the old regulator's HI current contact was pitted (which can happen over time). Overall, this would have the same effect as cleaning and dressing the contacts inside the old regulator, though.
See SOHC4shop.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book
Link to My CB500/CB550 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?sortBy=RELEVANCE&page=1&q=my+cb550+book&pageSize=10&adult_audience_rating=00
Link to website: https://sohc4shop.com/  (Note: no longer at www.SOHC4shop.com, moved off WWW. in 2024).

Offline 70cbk0

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #30 on: November 21, 2009, 02:03:10 PM »
Thanks guys, John.
1970 CB 750K0
1969 CB 750K0
1966 CB77 Superhawk
1982 Honda XR200R

Offline leekellerking

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2009, 08:17:20 PM »
An update:

Ran 400 miles Saturday to Hutto, Texas and back for the Two Wheeled Texans pie run.  Except for it raining the whole way up there (and being cold, but I'm the dumbo that left the liners out of his jacket and pants), the trip was fine.

Bikey ran like a top (okay, he used a bit of oil) and there were NO electrical problems

Now to see if there is an oil leak, or if bikey is just burning oil.  Oh, and the running rich problem...

The joys of riding an antique motorcycle.   ::)
My Nighthawk is put together with wire and zip ties, burns oil, and handles like a pig.  I love it!

Offline Spanner 1

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2009, 08:33:56 PM »
Great, Lee...did you put your old rec./regulator back on your bike ?, hope so or more ' fried stator' down the road...just in MHO.
If your sure it's a carb problem; it's ignition,
If your sure it's an ignition problem; it's carbs....

Offline leekellerking

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Re: Yet ANOTHER Strange and Baffling Electrical Problem (Dammit!)
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2009, 09:00:20 PM »
Great, Lee...did you put your old rec./regulator back on your bike ?, hope so or more ' fried stator' down the road...just in MHO.

I put the Oregonmotorcycleparts.com reg/rec back on my bike.  Tony tells me it is not a shunt unit, but works like the OEM unit, but from better components.  I trust Tony.  He has steered me right, so far.

www.oregonmotorcycleparts.com for electrical connectors and regulators from Tony.
www.customrewind.com for rewound rotors and stators and other stuff from Gary in Birmingham, Alabama.

Great parts and great service from both gentlemen. Sa-lutt

Now I just gotta git jiggy with it an find where the oil is going --leaking or buning???

And what about the gas --too rich, too lean, or JUST right?
Nuf said.  
« Last Edit: November 22, 2009, 09:03:57 PM by leekellerking »
My Nighthawk is put together with wire and zip ties, burns oil, and handles like a pig.  I love it!