Author Topic: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.  (Read 620669 times)

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Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2009, 08:02:15 AM »
     For perspective, a stock 400 Hondamatic runs high 11's in the 1/8th mile and low 17's in the quarter mile. My 450 Hondamatic ran high 8's (high gear only) in the 1/8th mile, low 14's in the quarter with both gears. Slow is a relative term. A car running low 14's is considered quick, but a bike running the same times is considered very slow....?
     Sam is looking for high 11's on a street legal tire. An 11 second car on street tires is borderline undriveable on the street. Going from 14's to 11's is still considered slow for motorcycle bracket racing. One of the reasons that slow, consistent bikes are disliked is the cost factor. Most quicker bikes have more $$$ invested in them. A lot of racers still equate money spent to the amount of times that they should win. A stock appearing Hondamatic winning against modified Hayabusa's does not win friends. Losing to the Hayabusa 6 times in a row gets you accepted by the big $$$ racers.
     Bracket racing is ideally driver competition. If you are a better driver to react to the lights and can judge the finish line better against your opponent will usually win. The quicker you go, the greater the challenge to get consistency. Sam can have the best bracket bike in the country and still lose. His challenge after getting the bike done is to learn the reasons why he will probably initially lose races. Learning from your initial mistakes makes you a better racer. (in any category) Not learning from your mistakes is how you consistently lose to a good bracket racer on a Hondamatic.
     One recommendation on Sam's bike that I didn't mention in my visit is the bike chain. Go with the 530 size racing chain.(no o-rings)
The earlier 750's came from the factory with a 530 chain. The sprockets fill all SOHC 750's. The 630 chain weighs more and usually doesn't have any more tensile strength. A very unique shape forms in the chain when on the starting line with an automatic 750. The rear brake keeps the bike from moving while the slipping torque converter tries to drive the bike forward. The lower side of the chain goes into a sine wave shape until the brake is released. Yes, that's with a properly tightened chain. You do tend to stretch the chains out quicker than someone would on the street. Every couple of seasons, I replace the chain with a new one. Sam running only up to 4 events a year will have forgotten when he put on the chain by the time it needs replacing. Kinda like the rear tire. You wear out the rear tire with burnouts, not by going miles down the track. Sam's season will be 20 - 25 miles total travel. How long would your rear tire last if you travelled 25 miles a year? Dry rot of the sidewalls will end a tire's life, even with Sam driving it a few times a year.

                                                                   Jon Weeks (hondamatic on several internet forum sites including dragbike.com)  ;D

Offline 1080

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #26 on: December 10, 2009, 10:57:36 AM »
Many races are won at the starting line.

In bracket racing a good reaction time can be the winning factor.

It can take years ( in my case ) before you become good, but once you get that first big victory you are on your way.

Jweeks that 450 must of turn a lots heads. Sure would beat lots 750's in 1/8 mile. ;)

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #27 on: December 10, 2009, 05:05:28 PM »
     For perspective, a stock 400 Hondamatic runs high 11's in the 1/8th mile and low 17's in the quarter mile. My 450 Hondamatic ran high 8's (high gear only) in the 1/8th mile, low 14's in the quarter with both gears. Slow is a relative term. A car running low 14's is considered quick, but a bike running the same times is considered very slow....?
     Sam is looking for high 11's on a street legal tire. An 11 second car on street tires is borderline undriveable on the street. Going from 14's to 11's is still considered slow for motorcycle bracket racing. One of the reasons that slow, consistent bikes are disliked is the cost factor. Most quicker bikes have more $$$ invested in them. A lot of racers still equate money spent to the amount of times that they should win. A stock appearing Hondamatic winning against modified Hayabusa's does not win friends. Losing to the Hayabusa 6 times in a row gets you accepted by the big $$$ racers.
     Bracket racing is ideally driver competition. If you are a better driver to react to the lights and can judge the finish line better against your opponent will usually win. The quicker you go, the greater the challenge to get consistency. Sam can have the best bracket bike in the country and still lose. His challenge after getting the bike done is to learn the reasons why he will probably initially lose races. Learning from your initial mistakes makes you a better racer. (in any category) Not learning from your mistakes is how you consistently lose to a good bracket racer on a Hondamatic.
     One recommendation on Sam's bike that I didn't mention in my visit is the bike chain. Go with the 530 size racing chain.(no o-rings)
The earlier 750's came from the factory with a 530 chain. The sprockets fill all SOHC 750's. The 630 chain weighs more and usually doesn't have any more tensile strength. A very unique shape forms in the chain when on the starting line with an automatic 750. The rear brake keeps the bike from moving while the slipping torque converter tries to drive the bike forward. The lower side of the chain goes into a sine wave shape until the brake is released. Yes, that's with a properly tightened chain. You do tend to stretch the chains out quicker than someone would on the street. Every couple of seasons, I replace the chain with a new one. Sam running only up to 4 events a year will have forgotten when he put on the chain by the time it needs replacing. Kinda like the rear tire. You wear out the rear tire with burnouts, not by going miles down the track. Sam's season will be 20 - 25 miles total travel. How long would your rear tire last if you travelled 25 miles a year? Dry rot of the sidewalls will end a tire's life, even with Sam driving it a few times a year.

                                                                   Jon Weeks (hondamatic on several internet forum sites including dragbike.com)  ;D
Jon,Thanks so much for your help. I know Sam feels the same. The bike is really shaping up to be quite nice.Pro ET huh Sam?,I guess I get to learn for even longer! ;D.I've got to get a rulebook and join series. Jon I want to go to earlier rounds next year.Look forward to maybe seeing you there? I think I'll tell Sam I'll sponser us with tires and chain and sprockets!! ;D ;D Man you guys must of had big fun @ Murph's(Mike). Any suggestions on getting ready for next year? May have to break out the old Yoshi kitted CB590 and turn it back into dragbike just to keep the Haya boys happy! Once again thanks and 1080 your bike brings back fond memories!! ;D,Bill
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Offline hendrcs

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #28 on: December 10, 2009, 05:12:05 PM »
JWEEKS, do you do the converter modifications being discussed here? If so, could you share what is involved (pictures would be nice) without divulging any secrets? I have a few 'matic converters and would like to mod one for a bike I'm building but don't know where to start. I understand you can't bend the fins and they have to be machined.

Thanks

Steve

Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #29 on: December 10, 2009, 07:31:06 PM »
Hendrics,
     Yes, I can do pictures for the converter modifications. The problem is that the picture(s) won't give the dimensional changes made by my machinist. Increasing clearances increases slippage. The greater the slippage, the higher the stall speed. The stall speed is also affected by the motor's power. Sam's converter will get him about a 4k launch. You can't get much more without losing too much power in the slippage. The bad half of the gains at launch is the increased heat generated by slippage in the converter. Controlling the oil temperature and viscosity is critical to the consistency of the transmission. The converter has cast fins. You can't bend them. You can machine fins out and reweld in new fins at a different angle. That's what I did on my 10 second drag Hondamatic. I've got a 6k stall torque converter that is very, very expensive. This isn't catalog stuff here. I'll try to get a picture or two up tomorrow.

                                                    Jon Weeks  :)

Offline hendrcs

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2009, 05:22:32 AM »
Thanks for the reply. This will not be used for drag racing, but will be for a freshened-up streetable 836 'matic. Not looking for a full blown mod like Sam's, just wanting to loosen it up a bit for a little better performance.

Looking forward to the pix.

Steve

Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2009, 08:59:38 AM »
Good stuff Jon.

I now have a kawasaki dragbike in my stable to go along with my hondamatic.  Maybe I am just a bad hondamatic mechanic or I don't spend enough time on it, but my kawasaki is way more consistent than the honda.  I'm sure it's all in my combination not being just right.  Wind is a huge factor that affects the slow bikes more than the fast ones as far as consistentcy goes.

btw, along the lines of tracks making rules to keep these "slow" bike out, i had it happen at indianapolis.  First, I had a friend riding my 450 hondamatic and going rounds so the street bike guys(not the dragbike guys) got the management together and they all agreed to make it 15.99 and quicker.  I had to fight tooth and nail to make them let my buddy finish that race.  Then the street bike guys decided they wanted their own class.  I usually run in the mid to low 13's and guess what, it was 12.99 and quicker.  If time allows, I am going to build a chrome moly chassis for my motor and retain the street look.  I'm not much help in the process, i weigh 250 pounds so maybe i should shed some there too but the bottom line is i can't wait to see the looks on their faces.  I am very happy to see these bikes coming back to life on the dragstrip.

Offline Leino

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #32 on: December 11, 2009, 10:20:35 AM »
Sam
 Reading this thread has made me seriously think about the possibility of racing my CB instead of my GS(X)'s a few times in the near future.Yeah I know, I shouldn't say anything like that before I have any of my bikes running but still... ;D bracket 10.00-15.00 in Finland suites a CB quite well.Thanks for the inspiration Sam and Mike  ;).

Juha
p.s. If my information is correct, no one has ever raced a 8-valve CB 750 in Streetbike (bracket-class) in Finland before so I could make history while I'm at it  ;D.

Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2009, 12:30:53 PM »
If you are low 13, and can can convince them to let you run (with an obvious handicap).. and you are good on the lights, you could still win.. you would have to be 13.0 to 13.1, but it could be done..

 that would keep the slow ones out, but if you win, I am sure the whining will start..

raced one of my whizzers against a MiniTrail in the 1/4 once...the crowd loved it...

the 12.99 was put in place to keep me out.  don't think i can convince them to let me in.  If the bike would run 13.05 or quicker i would get in but 13.1 is a no go. 

Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2009, 04:05:23 PM »
honda3303,
     Chad, I offered to let you run one of my 750A's in pro et at Atco. Sorry that I couldn't fit your schedule. I find Pro Et easier than Street Et. (to run, not necessarily win) Your mechanical rear brake would make for some challenges going over to Pro. Box controlling air cylinder exhaust valve?
     Sam will have the same challenges if he wants to move up. Check out Sam's bike at Valdosta next fall. The differences will be in the stall in the converter, the extra oil cooler, and the slightly greater horsepower along with around 90 lbs lighter combination. I'm hoping that he'll use a quarter fairing for the top end. Bricks are very sensitive to the wind as you know. The quarter fairing at least puts a rounded nose onto the front of the brick. I've found that the quarter fairing cuts the variations from the random headwind.
     With your weight, I'd be looking at a 900F crank. A little more displacement from the 6mm increased stroke and a lot better torque. The downside is that no one yet has figured out how to make that crank in a 750A case self start. A couple more gears forward would also help. Before I'm done, I'm planning on a 6 speed in my automatic. Haven't figured out that one entirely yet, but I've got a few ideas... I've got three bike projects to finish before trying a different tranny. My Suzda twin automatic which should run the 2010 season; my DOHC 750A which gets finished after the twin; and the Suzukimatic twin hand grenade that I'm building. The Suzukimatic should run about the same ET's that you're running.
     I'm not going to be running many of the AMA/Prostar events next season. The cost of getting to and from there; the time off from work; and the minimal expectations of winning keep me from trying. If Atco goes well next year, I may get tempted to try a little further away. I've run 5 Prostar events in Pro Et with nothing to show for it. When I lose with .029 packages, I don't get enthusiastic to pour more money into that circuit.

                                              Jon Weeks

Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #35 on: December 12, 2009, 08:58:29 AM »
If you are low 13, and can can convince them to let you run (with an obvious handicap).. and you are good on the lights, you could still win.. you would have to be 13.0 to 13.1, but it could be done..

 that would keep the slow ones out, but if you win, I am sure the whining will start..

raced one of my whizzers against a MiniTrail in the 1/4 once...the crowd loved it...

the 12.99 was put in place to keep me out.  don't think i can convince them to let me in.  If the bike would run 13.05 or quicker i would get in but 13.1 is a no go. 

Get Mike to do your head Chad, should take you into the 12s easily.

Sam. ;)
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Offline Big Jay

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #36 on: December 12, 2009, 11:25:47 PM »
Chad;
We could just stroke the auto crank.
http://aperaceparts.com/mailers/crankmail.html


Jay

Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2009, 09:20:42 AM »
my bike is already as low as it can go without milling the fins off the oil pan.  Jon, you have great ideas.  I will be checking out the cooler on sam's bike.  My bike right now weighs about 460 pounds, so I have taken a great deal off of it.  I know there is more.  As for pro et, i have no problem racing those guys without a delay box.  I usually have the reaction time advantage, it's the consistency that gets me.  One of these days I will try to make some more power.  For now, I am spending my pennies elsewhere.  I will say you guys have increased my interest in these bikes.

Offline 754

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #38 on: December 13, 2009, 10:46:09 AM »
Are you still running your alternator?
 Dont know how much more an auto weighs, but we had the iceracer down to around 425 with stock tank and seat, and wheels.. no brake on front.
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Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #39 on: December 13, 2009, 06:43:26 PM »
no alternator.  that weight is an estimate with the changes i made last winter.  I don't even have a starter in it.  The battery box is gone and the battery is mounted to the swingarm.  I can lose another 10 pounds with the seat that i haven't done yet and it will get me lower on the bike too.

Offline jweeks

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2009, 05:20:31 PM »
Chad and all,
     Oil temperature control is what keeps them consistent. The starter at the Lebanon Valley Prostar events remembered me when I went to Sanaire (sp?) Quebec event about 5 or 6 years later. He stated that my Hondamatic was the most consistent bracket bike he had ever seen. Considering that I didn't have my 'matic at Sanaire, his memory was very good. I ran a gambler's race on Saturday night at the Lebanon Valley event. Lost in the first round. Before we were to run, a quick bike dumped it's rods out and oiled down the track, halting racing for about 45 minutes. I didn't warm up my bike during the delay. I cut a perfect .500 light and couldn't run within 3 tenths of my dial-in. The guy that I lost to came up to me just before eliminations on Sunday. He asked me what I broken on my run against him? I answered that nothing broke; the bike was just way too cold.
     I promised a picture of what gets modified on a stock torque converter to increase the stall speed. Trim the thickness on the left hub and you can see some of the fin removal on the right. What you do on the left has the greater effect on slippage.

Jon Weeks


Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #41 on: December 15, 2009, 04:18:31 PM »
Finally got a chance to turn a wrench on the CB750A.First up was to weigh it.F/end 242.6,R/end 268.2 = 510.8 lbs.After fairing removal,bracket,f/fender,nameplate,fuel tank,seat,tailight unit,pass. pegs,horn,mirrors,misc pcs. and hardware;F/end 205.4,R/end 214.8 = 420.2 lbs.!! ;D ;D
Still has c/stand,c/guard,and heavy steel rear fender,another 30-40lbs to come off? 380lbs.with fluids? Time will tell ,stay tuned! Mike,you want me to remove c/stand @ this time? Bill
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Offline Sam Green Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2009, 03:45:28 AM »
Did it come with the hardbags or whey removed prior to shipping?  ;) ;D

Merry Christmas Sam ;-)

cheers
Andy

Merry Sunday after Christmas folks ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Get yourself round to Mikes and get them out of his way Andy, give him a donation however much you want to our project but when you do, try to forget your nationallity.  :D :D :D :D :D :D :D Hope you all had a good one.

Sam. ;)
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #43 on: December 27, 2009, 05:31:43 AM »
Merry Morning indeed,cheers,life is back to normal(Sam is posting).We have Windjammer III fairing and bracket,fuel tank,tailight unit,f/fender(small dents)seat,Honda f/nameplate,rear footpegs etc.Anyone interested in parts all monies go to CB750A project!PM me,no reasonable offer refused.Hate to put them on e-bay if forum member could use them.Bill
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #44 on: December 27, 2009, 01:58:37 PM »
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D








« Last Edit: December 27, 2009, 02:04:03 PM by bellcow54 »
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
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Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2009, 12:33:41 PM »
#1 awaiting pick up,#2 350F tank and rebuilt petcock off 836 bike swingarm came from,#3 Chad you getting worried? ;D ;D,#4 mock up of tank,#5 getting there,#6 petcock before rebuild.More to follow!,Bill

never worried.  I'll bracket race for money with whoever wants to.  heck, we can switch bikes and do it.  Sounds like fun.  Seriously though, I wish you the best and I can't wait to see a fleet of hondamatics at the track. 

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2009, 05:50:51 PM »
Chad,you the man,thanks for the kind words of encouragement,indeed we are and will have FUN!! ;D ;D Good luck on this upcoming season.Bill
BentON Racing Website
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Over 35 years of experience working on vintage motorcycles, with a speciality in Honda SOHC/4 with a focus on the CB750 and other models as well from 1966 - 1985.
______________________________________
1993 HRC RS125 | 1984 NS400R | 1974 Honda CB750/836cc (Calendar Girl) | 1972 CB 500/550 Yoshi Kitted 590cc | 1965 Honda CB450 Black Bomber | 1972 Suzuki T350 | 1973 88cc | Z50/Falcons Pit Bike | 1967 CA100| 1974 CB350 (400F motor)...and more.
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Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2009, 08:21:33 PM »
while i have gone a different direction for pro et racing, i wouldn't hesitate to jump back on the honda in a pinch.  It will always be there for me in the street et racing.  see you soon at track...........

Offline honda3303

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #48 on: December 31, 2009, 12:29:07 PM »
valdosta in early march is our plan.  I've winterized the honda and will change the oil and charge the batter for March.  We will be debuting something different with our kawasaki dragbikes.  Steve and I have put hayabusa motors in them.  Bone stock as far as horsepower goes.  I have an 08 motor and I will be hoping to run pro et and super comp with it if all goes well.  I mention it because most people in this section seem very innovative.  I know our idea isn't new but doing it for the first time has it's challenges.

Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: CB750A Street ET bracket drag bike. A year to build it.
« Reply #49 on: January 01, 2010, 06:33:20 PM »
The top frame members allow space to remove the head.  Then the motor is easier to handle.  This thread has caused me to buy back a 750A that I had sold a few years ago. Now I have a much better idea of what to do with it.
Dennis in Wisconsin
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