Author Topic: health care bill  (Read 38718 times)

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Offline bucky katt

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2010, 01:17:04 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMO8Pyi3UpY&feature=related



...and so it begins.  Just read the following posts with this in the background and it'll make it all so much better.


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Offline johnny_from_bel

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2010, 01:47:14 AM »
This health care bill gives YOU more power, Gamma, NOT the health care corporations, NOT the Government......in 5 years time this will be a total non-issue as you will have enjoyed, along with countless other Americans, better health care access and it will be 'taken for granted' and some other issue will be argued... how about education for all ( including free college)...I'm such a SOCIALIST..!!

I live in a country where :

Education is sponsored by the gouvernement (nearly free)
Healthcare is sponsored by the gouvernemlent (nearly free)

Its not all that bad.


Offline GammaFlat

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2010, 07:00:39 AM »
This health care bill gives YOU more power, Gamma, NOT the health care corporations, NOT the Government......in 5 years time this will be a total non-issue as you will have enjoyed, along with countless other Americans, better health care access and it will be 'taken for granted' and some other issue will be argued... how about education for all ( including free college)...I'm such a SOCIALIST..!!

I strongly disagree.  The government will be in control of 16% of the economy.  With that 16%, they will be literally deciding who gets care, how much, what type of services will be covered and not covered, etc.  Demon-izing the insurance companies is valuable for those in favor of "big reform" (read: move towards socialism or some form of marxism... so, yes you're supporting things that move our society in that direction).  The insurance company question has been a cleverly crafted ruse for a long time.  The huge liability insurance that doctors need to carry because lawsuits have been intentionally moved to the "out of control" state.  Inefficiencies (like same state rules) have been supported by clever politicians to undermine the current system to the point where they get to throw up their hands and say, "you see, this system is broke", so that it can be rebuilt the way they like it (and wadda ya know, they hold all the cards at the end of the game).  I think it's foolish to assume that Joe average citizen will do well in this mess but we will see.  The best indicator is how poorly these types of system have done elsewhere.  The finest doctors that people come from around the world to see in this country will slowly disappear and we'll have health care equivalent to countries from where our doctor shoppers have come.  

The whole bill was built on the premise that this was necessary to save our economy.  Do they think we're that stupid?  Our government has never run anything efficiently.  I believe this to be the final nail in the coffin in terms of our economy.  This country is deeply in debt and will now run a program upside down to further our debt.  

Since I was a child, I remember hearing that if you wanted to understand what was going on, follow the money.  This is no exception.  The premise that many folks lose site of is that the money that the government can collect from us is their money.  I feel differently.  It is our money and they had better be careful with it.  It will be a stronger country if we can prevent them from collecting more and wasting more.  

..and by the way, didn't the president say he was not raising taxes on the middle class (the definition of which changed at least 6 times in his and Biden's words)?  Well, now that we have health care, you'll pay $1700 per year per person and to make sure you pay they've hired a whole bunch of IRS agents for compliance.  

I'm really feeling empowered.  yes, I won't get to pick what doctor I want... I can't decide how much insurance I want.  I am compelled by law to buy insurance..  I'm feeling good.  
« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 10:52:27 AM by GammaFlat »
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Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2010, 07:12:54 AM »
The fat Lady has no sung yet. Excerpt from the NY Times:

Legal and Political Fights Loom Over Health Care

The next chapter in the health care fight will play out not only in the midterm elections, but also in the courts. Attorneys general in three states — Virginia, Florida and South Carolina — have indicated they will file legal challenges to the measure, arguing that its requirement that individuals buy insurance is a violation of the Constitution. In an interview Sunday, the Virginia attorney general, Ken Cuccinelli, said he intended to base his challenge on two grounds: that the federal bill conflicts with a newly passed state law that says no Virginian may be compelled to buy insurance, and that Congress does not have authority to impose the mandate under its powers to regulate interstate commerce, as Democrats contend.

Read the whole story here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/03/23/health/policy/23campaign.html
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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2010, 08:00:54 AM »
Last I checked our country was developed becuase we were trying to get away from the ideals of having a government run country.

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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #30 on: March 22, 2010, 08:07:48 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cMO8Pyi3UpY&feature=related



...and so it begins.  Just read the following posts with this in the background and it'll make it all so much better.


Ohh lord my kid even laughed. Good one Kit.
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Offline Caaveman82

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #31 on: March 22, 2010, 08:13:57 AM »
This health care bill gives YOU more power, Gamma, NOT the health care corporations, NOT the Government......in 5 years time this will be a total non-issue as you will have enjoyed, along with countless other Americans, better health care access and it will be 'taken for granted' and some other issue will be argued... how about education for all ( including free college)...I'm such a SOCIALIST..!!

I strongly disagree.  The government will be in control of 16% of the economy.  With that 16%, they will be literally deciding who gets care, how much, what type of services will be covered and not covered, etc.  Demon-izing the insurance companies is valuable for those in favor of "big reform" (read: move towards socialism or some form of marxism... so, yes you're supporting things that move our society in that direction).  The insurance company question has been a cleverly crafted ruse for a long time.  The huge liability insurance that doctors need to carry because lawsuits have been intentionally been moved to the "out of control" state.  Inefficiencies (like same state rules) have been supported by clever politicians to undermine the current system to the point where they get to throw up their hands and say, "you see, this system is broke", so that it can be rebuilt the way they like it (and wadda ya know, they hold all the cards at the end of the game).  I think it's foolish to assume that Joe average citizen will do well in this mess but we will see.  The best indicator is how poorly these types of system have done elsewhere.  The finest doctors that people come from around the world to see in this country will slowly disappear and we'll have health care equivalent to countries from where our doctor shoppers have come. 

The whole bill was built on the premise that this was necessary to save our economy.  Do they think we're that stupid?  Our government has never run anything efficiently.  I believe this to be the final nail in the coffin in terms of our economy.  This country is deeply in debt and will now run a program upside down to further our debt. 

Since I was a child, I remember hearing that if you wanted to understand what was going on, follow the money.  This is no exception.  The premise that many folks lose site of is that the money that the government can collect from us is their money.  I feel differently.  It is our money and they had better be careful with it.  It will be a stronger country if we can prevent them from collecting more and wasting more. 

..and by the way, didn't the president say he was not raising taxes on the middle class (the definition of which changed at least 6 times in his and Biden's words)?  Well, now that we have health care, you'll pay $1700 per year per person and to make sure you pay they've hired a whole bunch of IRS agents for compliance. 

I'm really feeling empowered.  yes, I won't get to pick what doctor I want... I can't decide how much insurance I want.  I am compelled by law to buy insurance..  I'm feeling good. 

You act as though if this goes wrong we are doomed. Remember we are the people who call the shots at the end of the day. If you don't like the way your government is acting then you do something about it. If this whole thing ruins the country then we take it back. Wouldn't be the first time the people had overthrown a major government. So why not just chill out and see what happens and if you feel that strongly about it then why not go do something about it?

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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #32 on: March 22, 2010, 08:33:39 AM »
Yeah, right.  NOTHING is more insidious than the encroachment of government entitlement programs.  Just like drug addiction, once you create the dependents, there's no turning back.  The worst part is that the government is taking over while pretending to help.  Just like welfare, the "help" is worse than the problem.

You act as though if this goes wrong we are doomed. Remember we are the people who call the shots at the end of the day. If you don't like the way your government is acting then you do something about it. If this whole thing ruins the country then we take it back. Wouldn't be the first time the people had overthrown a major government. So why not just chill out and see what happens and if you feel that strongly about it then why not go do something about it?


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 08:38:38 AM by edbikerii »
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Offline Jordan

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #33 on: March 22, 2010, 08:41:56 AM »
Politicians have done it again! JohnQ Public is left up the creek without a paddle and this time they did not even offer the proverbial 55 gallon drum of KY Jelly. I wish pelosi would just conk herself on the head with that humongous excuse for a gavel she was dragging around. 

Offline Caaveman82

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #34 on: March 22, 2010, 09:06:04 AM »


Yeah, right.  NOTHING is more insidious than the encroachment of government entitlement programs.  Just like drug addiction, once you create the dependents, there's no turning back.  The worst part is that the government is taking over while pretending to help.  Just like welfare, the "help" is worse than the problem.

You act as though if this goes wrong we are doomed. Remember we are the people who call the shots at the end of the day. If you don't like the way your government is acting then you do something about it. If this whole thing ruins the country then we take it back. Wouldn't be the first time the people had overthrown a major government. So why not just chill out and see what happens and if you feel that strongly about it then why not go do something about it?



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Offline BeSeeingYou

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #35 on: March 22, 2010, 11:17:08 AM »
The Republicans had the choice of being involved and getting some of the things they wanted in the bill but instead chose to make the political calculation that it was more important to try and damage the Obama Administration than do anything to help the American People.  So once again we see Conservatives/Republicans come down on the wrong side of history, reform, and reality.  They opposed:
 
Women's right to vote
Child labor laws
Social Security
Medicare
Civil Rights
EPA clean air and water act
Consumer safety and regulation.
Gay rights
And now health care reform
Next up we will see them opposing finance and banking reform and regulation

A track record to be proud of ???


« Last Edit: March 22, 2010, 11:21:23 AM by srust58 »

Offline GammaFlat

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #36 on: March 22, 2010, 11:21:47 AM »
Quote
I often fail to see how people can be both altruistic and conservative.  I'm sure the division lies in the circle of people one extends ones altruism toward.
I believe those thoughts to be upside down.  Without conservativism, there is less altruism by definition.  In a conservative setting, prosperity and wealth are more available.  The most altruistic folks I know have done very well and won't do as well in a Marxist or Socialist state... and therefore will have less to give. 

Quote
My take in general is that it is a good idea made with good intentions.
I do not believe Reid, Pelosi and Obama are acting with good intentions.  They are the winners with control (follow the money) over more of the economy and garnering voters is next with amnesty.  They already mentioned on Saturday that amnesty was next (subtext: to build voting base that they lost with this power-grab). 

Quote
Whether or not it will be managed well and by the right people, or be taken advantage of and ruined will remain to be seen.
Poor management and ruination of the health care system is as certain as the fact that more than half the country did not approve of this health care bill.  (opinion)

Quote
I am a strong believer in the good intentions of humankind.  Everyone is the hero/heroine in their own movie, and tries to do well by themselves and/or the people they care about, whether or not they think their actions through as fully as they ought to. 
The good intentions part of this is the double cross of the the liberals and progressives.  They pull at your heartstrings while reaching around for your wallet.  We, as a people, are too easily duped. 

Quote
I also believe that this thread will devolve very soon after this into another "debate" and/or shouting match in text form.  It may be locked because as we state and reiterate our beliefs, we try in vain to convince others they are wrong instead of just leaving a statement of our feelings on the matter for others to read and process as they will.
Is this code for "let's not talk about this any more?" :)  Let the "devolving" begin.  We can do without the shouting though.  The above-quoted posts have value as do other posts.  Freedom of speech, however, is another targeted freedom we enjoy.  The fairness doctrine will "fix" that - stay tuned. 
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #37 on: March 22, 2010, 11:23:04 AM »
+1 GammaFlat.  It is not altruistic to steal money from those who have earned it in a free society and give it to those who have not.  It is simply stealing.
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Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #38 on: March 22, 2010, 11:37:00 AM »
It also amazes me that people try to re-write history so lightly.

Let us not forget that the democrats were the party of slavery, and, most decisively NOT civil rights until nearly 100 years later when they realized how many votes they could cajole.

The Republicans were the first to run a female candidate on the presidential platform (Senator Margaret Chase Smith), outside of the Equal Rights Party, which the democrats vehemently opposed.

And on, and on, and on with the nonsense propaganda.  It is a shame that so many fall in line with the brainwashing so easily.  Perhaps the bias in the schools and the media helps?
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Offline climbingaz

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #39 on: March 22, 2010, 12:25:08 PM »
Good reason not to believe everything you hear from a brother in law in Texas much less the Honorable ::) David Kithil.  In the interest of full disclosure I have two brothers in Texas but they have not sent me any emails yet.  When they do I will let you know. ;D

Our constitution does not allow the government to force us to buy a product (health insurance).  This plan forces the issue.  It is unconstitutional.

The next time I get pulled over and the police officer asks me for proof of insurance I'm gonna just tell him, "Screw you!  Our constitution does not allow the government to force us to buy a product!"  :D

Offline edbikerii

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #40 on: March 22, 2010, 01:05:03 PM »
It is the commerce clause in the US Constitution that makes it illegal for the FED to mandate purchases.  States can mandate whatever they legislate.

This is a protection that was afforded TO THE STATES to protect them from the FED.

Good reason not to believe everything you hear from a brother in law in Texas much less the Honorable ::) David Kithil.  In the interest of full disclosure I have two brothers in Texas but they have not sent me any emails yet.  When they do I will let you know. ;D

Our constitution does not allow the government to force us to buy a product (health insurance).  This plan forces the issue.  It is unconstitutional.

The next time I get pulled over and the police officer asks me for proof of insurance I'm gonna just tell him, "Screw you!  Our constitution does not allow the government to force us to buy a product!"  :D
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Offline Laminar

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #41 on: March 22, 2010, 01:10:07 PM »
Just as everyone in Twotired's airbox thread is a physicist/engineer/expert, so, too is everyone in this thread a poli-sci expert/economics major/health care provider.

That's why I'll post an opinion in that thread but not this one. ;)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #42 on: March 22, 2010, 01:16:03 PM »
Just as everyone in Twotired's airbox thread is a physicist/engineer/expert, so, too is everyone in this thread a poli-sci expert/economics major/health care provider. 

That, my friend, is all well-worded code for: "I'm sick of this bull#$%* already."

um, er, I think I'm offended.  ???   :-\

Are you suggesting everyone stop all posting in any forum, as it is all bull#$%*?  ???  Or, is it just the open forum that is bull#$%*?  ???

Perhaps I just need to change the Honda induction thread title to engine health care and air quality?  :-\
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Offline Laminar

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #43 on: March 22, 2010, 01:18:52 PM »
Just as everyone in Twotired's airbox thread is a physicist/engineer/expert, so, too is everyone in this thread a poli-sci expert/economics major/health care provider. 

That, my friend, is all well-worded code for: "I'm sick of this bull#$%* already."

um, er, I think I'm offended.  ???   :-\

Are you suggesting everyone stop all posting in any forum, as it is all bull#$%*?  ???  Or, is it just the open forum that is bull#$%*?  ???

Perhaps I just need to change the Honda induction thread title to engine health care and air quality?  :-\

I don't think she was insulting you personally, but instead she has a distaste for the "I clearly and easily understand an intricate and complicated system" mentality that's present in a lot of posters in your thread and in these political threads.

Offline BobbyR

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #44 on: March 22, 2010, 01:53:59 PM »
More information. New York Times:

With a sweeping overhaul of the nation’s health care system, Congress would be giving the health care industry as many as 32 million additional paying customers in the next few years.

That would mean millions more Americans buying private health insurance and better able to pay for their hospital stays, doctors’ visits, prescription drugs and medical devices.

And some analysts said as the vote neared that the final legislation was shaping up as much kinder to the industry than many initially feared. Hospitals and drug makers, which supported the final legislation, would be clear beneficiaries, analysts say, even if the outlook for insurers was less certain.

Yet the bill would not create the thing that insurers feared most: a government-run public option, a health plan that would compete with the private insurers.

Over all, the legislation would be a positive for much of the industry, said Les Funtleyder, who oversees health care strategy for Miller Tabak & Company, a New York investment firm.

There is no question that insurers would face the most strikingly different business environment, with drastic changes in the way insurance is sold to individuals and small businesses, one of the industry’s most profitable areas. There would also be much heavier regulation.

“It’s a huge business risk,” said Rick Weissenstein, a health care policy analyst at Concept Capital, which follows developments for investors. “There are going to be some insurers that aren’t going to adapt very well.”

But insurers are expected to benefit from the influx of new customers after years of shrinking enrollments. About 16 million of the newly insured are expected to enroll in private plans. The rest would become eligible for Medicaid, the state-administered program for the poor, but some of those would probably sign up for privately run Medicaid plans available in different states.

One place where the rules of the insurance game may shift most significantly is in a new kind of state-supervised marketplace, called exchanges, in which insurers would be required to sell their policies for individuals and small businesses. The exchanges are expected to involve much greater regulatory oversight than insurers now typically face and to alter their business models drastically. Currently, insurers seek to protect profits by trying to enroll only the healthiest individuals, while also charging enough to recoup the expense of covering sick people. But the legislation requires insurers to cover even people with potentially costly pre-existing conditions.

The new law would also place strict limits on how much more an insurer could vary premiums among the people taking out the same policy, largely to factor in age differences.

For the full story  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/35984164/ns/business-the_new_york_times/
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Offline GammaFlat

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #45 on: March 22, 2010, 01:55:24 PM »
Gamma, I was just calling it the way I see it.  I've been here long enough to know that no one is ever enlightened by these "discussions".  People get upset at each other, and while a few golden kernels of wisdom are dispensed, the vast majority of these threads are very forgettable because no one is going to be swayed.  These are topics everyone is passionate about one way or another because we all have stake in them in one way or another.
It's obvious to me that your posts are not without thoughtful consideration.  It's okay for us to not agree.  I appreciate your input to the forum. 

That, my friend, is all well-worded code for: "I'm sick of this bull#$%* already."
We are not senators, we are not congress. We can shout about it from our roof tops and angrily type at each other with bulging forehead veins and nitroglycerine tablets in-hand allllll we want, but unless we're actively writing our representatives, we're all just pissing in the ocean.
You can bet I am doing everything within my power to protect my country from harm. 
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #46 on: March 22, 2010, 02:07:02 PM »
No, Twotired, I was more stating that while your facts are exactly that- facts. It's the "physicists" who are demanding "Math" and "numbers" and "dyno testing" of you, further demanding what "qualifications" you have beyond the obvious experience we know you to have.  I find your information entirely valid and useful- I just question those who stubbornly beat their heads against the facts you present them with.

Ah, OK, thanks for the clarification.  No Harm, no foul.
Cheers,
and carry on.... :)
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Re: health care bill
« Reply #47 on: March 22, 2010, 02:17:02 PM »
Ignorance is Bliss!

Offline Kframe

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #48 on: March 22, 2010, 02:18:14 PM »
Last I checked our country was developed becuase we were trying to get away from the ideals of having a government run country.  Our country was built on the idea that we would not have only one religion, and we had freedoms.  Now the government gets to tell us if we get to live by pursuing treatment or die because they don't want to spend the money.  Good bye to all the grandmothers and grandfathers in the United States.  I knew this was going to be bad when the first presidential decision made by Nobama was to shut down Gitmo and invite the terrorists who are in custody for murdering thousands of Americans into our country on our soil.

Welcome to the forum Sarah Palin. ;D  Let's try and stay with the facts and not silly talking points.

Big surprise, an Obama supporter made the first personal insult.  
What you call talking points, hundreds of millions of Americans call core beliefs.
The phrase, "talking points" is also a way to belittle the concepts.  That's what people do when they can't make a valid argument, they resort to distorting the topic and personal attacks.
Are the 10 Commandments also "talking points"?
 ::)

We need less government control, not more, and when you have people like Pelosi saying they'll "do whatever necessary" to pass what they call healthcare reform, and Obama saying that process doesn't really matter, it's clear we need government reform far more than healthcare reform.  
This is a nation founded on laws and beliefs, and to stray from them is to doom the nation.

(p.s.- If this healthcare is in such crisis, why doesn't most of this 'emergency' legislation kick in for four years?)

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Offline Laminar

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Re: health care bill
« Reply #49 on: March 22, 2010, 02:28:49 PM »
Quote
Washington (CNN) - Civil rights icon and veteran Rep. John Lewis, D-Georgia, said anti-health care bill protesters Saturday repeatedly yelled the "N" word at him as he left a heath care meeting and walked to the Capitol.

"I haven't seen heard anything like this in more than 40 years, maybe 45." Lewis said. "Since the march from Selma to Montgomery really."

"Yeah, but it's okay," Lewis added. "I've faced this before. So, it reminded me of the 60's. There's a lot of downright hate and anger and people are just being downright mean."

The incident was confirmed by Rep. Andre Carson, D-Indiana, who was walking with Lewis at the time. Protesters were yelling, "'kill the bill, kill the bill' and the 'N' word several times," Carson said.

Rep. Emanuel Cleaver, D-Missouri, released a statement late Saturday saying he too was called the "N" word as he walked to the Capitol for a vote and that he was spat on by one protestor who was arrested by U.S. Capitol Police. Cleaver declined to press charges against the man, the statement said.

Protesters also hurled anti-gay comments at Rep. Barney Frank, D-Massachusetts, who is openly gay, as he left the same health care meeting that Lewis attended in a House office building.

A CNN producer overheard the word "faggot" yelled at Frank several times in the lobby of the Longworth building. Frank said he heard someone yell "homo" at him.

"I'm disappointed," Frank said. "There's an unwillingness to be civil."

Frank, who said he rarely hears such slurs anymore, said the health care issue has become "the proxy for a lot of other sentiments. A lot of which are perfectly reasonable but some of which are kind of ugly."

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2010/03/20/protesters-hurl-slurs-and-spit-at-democrats/?fbid=Q9KrTQe273q