Author Topic: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild  (Read 6217 times)

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Offline Skonnie Boy

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Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« on: May 02, 2010, 01:00:31 AM »
So, most threads of this sort are either instructive or informative.  This thread will likely be neither, unless my gross incompetence is instructive or entertaining to others attempting the same thing.  It could happen, I guess.  My one goal with this thread is to screw something up horribly in each installment, hopefully in an entertaining fashion.

I have a 750K3 frame with a K6 engine.  Its all well and fine, but its weeping oil left and right, so its time to dig in.  It runs fine, though its always had a slight misfire and pop upon downshifting.  A spark plug is stuck in the cylinder head, so it needs a helicoil.  Also, the PO told me it had a "boring-out, so its really big!" kit in it.  Always wondered about that.  After owning this bike for three and a half years, I am damn curious to crack open the engine and see what is the what.

First things first, I have to actually remove the engine.  To this end, I host a garage night for the Chicago Vintage Motorcycle group.  In exchange for cheap beer and decent pizza, they ride their real and valuable and nicer-than-my-bike motorcycles to our alley and generally make a nuisance of themselves.  A few of them then actually help me hoist my 175 lb. lump of engine out of the frame, thus starting this fabulous journey.

Its surprisingly easy, disconnecting all the electrics, oil hoses and so forth from the engine.  The lack of exhaust header studs makes things a bit easier.  To remove the engine, we use a combination of cheap motorcycle jack, 2X4 remainders and a 275 lb. man known in the Chicago-land area as "Big Bob".  It works, and we're in business.

For all the things I love and hate about the condition I got my bike in, I do love that the PO had hex bolts substituted for the crappy philips cam bolts.  The cam cover comes off, and in quick succession, the rockers, camshaft all such stuff follow.  Everything looks fine, on to the cylinder head.  Here's where it gets interesting.  I've alternated between rich and lean dozens of times as I've learned about tuning carbs.  To correct any mistakes I've made, I've usually resorted to "Italian tuneups" to make things right.  I also overheated the bike once.  In short, I've made so many half-assed and ill-informed decisions about "fixing" the bike, that its now time to see what effect all this has actually had on my trusty steed.

As it turns out, all my incompetence has had a negligible effect on the bike.  There's black #$%*ty buildup in the valve chambers, but a surprising lack of real nasty calcified stuff.  The head gasket comes off easy, explaining why it was turnstiling streams of oil before.  I discover wads of bunched up paper towels between the fins.  I apparently put them there after discovering oil all over my left leg, during my last road trip.  Oklahoma, maybe?

Now for the cylinder, proper.  Some slight rocking, and off it comes.  As much as I hate the PO, the cylinders still have a nice cross-hatch on the bores, and the bores all measure out to 64.80 mm and above.  They're barely out-of-round and each cylinder is within .06 mm of 90ยบ readings, so clearly some major work was done by the PO.  Its just odd, the piston and bore sizes - I'm guessing they bored out the sleeves to 64.5 mm, and the 13K miles since then have done the rest?

The pistons look gorgeous.  I don't know the make, maybe one of you guys can help identify?  At any rate, there's been no oil burning or anything like that, so I'm loath to take #$%* apart and measure stuff.  If its not broke, etc.  Right?

Of course, I bought the new gasket set made by Athena, who truly are #1 in their field as long as you use your middle finger to denote it.  Here is their impression of a head gasket in all its oval grandeur.

A bigger problem might be my bored out sleeves.  The gasket measures 65 mm-ish.  Not sure if its going to fit, oval nature notwithstanding.  Any opinions?

And, as promised, here's the grand fvuckup:  I sort of destroyed the oil pressure switch, trying to discover whether it needed a new gasket, since it seems to leak oil at an alarming rate.  But, in my defense, NO ONE EVER WRITES ABOUT THE OIL PRESSURE SWITCH.  It might as well not exist.  Its the Area 51 of the CB 750.  Hondaman's book doesn't have anything on it, neither does the Clymer.  How else am I supposed to find out about its construction except by rooting around and breaking #$%*?  I thought so.
    
Anyway, part of it broke off and ended up in the crank case.  I can't fish it out right now, so I'm going to bed and I am going to hit this whole mess in AM, my man.  Tomorrow, I shall hit this bike like MacArthur hit the Philippines.  Good night.

EDIT: I deleted the pics that didn't work in the first place.  Pics referred to in post can be seen below.  Sorry for any confusion.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2010, 07:56:19 AM by Skonnie Boy »
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Offline coldright

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #1 on: May 02, 2010, 01:04:34 AM »
Subscribed!

Offline TyMatthews

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #2 on: May 02, 2010, 01:14:08 AM »
None of the pics seem to be working?

Offline hondaface75

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2010, 06:35:17 AM »
No pix... but i'm interested to hear the rest.

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2010, 08:41:08 AM »
no pics

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2010, 10:25:48 AM »
Well apparently, the INSERT IMAGE function is still a mystery to me.  Oh wait, I need photobucket.  Screw that, we'll just have to this the old fashioned way with photoshop and annoyance.  Here's a few visuals to what I referred to.

1.  Garage Night.  Woot.
2.  Me and Big Bob removing the engine.  I'm the less hulking guy in the pic.
3.  Afterglow.  Or birth.
4.  "Oklahoma head gasket"
5.  Waste of everyone's time AKA, Athena head gasket for CB 750.
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Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2010, 11:15:41 AM »
Man, 256k is not very big.  But I understand space is at a premium.

1.  Anybody know what make of piston this is?  No markings inside.  I didn't scratch the sides like that.
2.  #1 and #2 sleeves.  Its hard to tell from the pic, but there's still a nice cross-hatch.
3.  Today's fvckup, brought to you by the oil pressure switch.
4.  With two bikes in various stages of dis/reassembly, space is at a premium.
5.  Still life in garage, take 3.

I'm a bit freaked out by the oil pressure switch I broke.  Was it plastic to begin with or rubber?  Guess I'll find out if they still make them.
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Offline shorterdanny

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2010, 01:07:12 PM »
top stuff buddy, i am at that stage now where i am having to decide whether to rebuild my own motor or pay someone to do it.

never touch an engine before. so bit nervous, but watching you do it makes it sound like a hoot... top inspiration....

watching, waiting for the next update...
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1978 CB750 K7

Offline 750four

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #8 on: May 02, 2010, 07:42:06 PM »
Looks like your cylinders have been bored and resleeved. Do you see how there is no meat around the sleeves between 1-2 and 3-4. When they bore them this big there are gaps in the actual cast. They have to be welded and rebored again due to the gaps. At least so I've read....but it may be worth checking for cracks and so forth around the cylinders where it would be thin. If the head has been redrilled for the the cam towers then thats a good thing. Could possilby be the reason there are different bolts also. The old ones are less than reliable.

No expert here just some food for thought and good luck with your engine. Should be a nicer ride when your finished.

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #9 on: May 02, 2010, 09:26:58 PM »
Yeah, I guess I'm somewhere in the 830-ish range as far as cc's.  I wish it was stock, the extra cc's don't do me much good at highway speed and above.  I doubt anything has been upgraded to match as far as cams, rockers, etc.  Maybe some oil passages have been drilled out, I'll have to check.

You should absolutely rebuild your own motor.  Doing irreparable mechanical harm and occasionally fixing problems is your best entertainment value. 

Today was just simple piston cleaning, Simple Green and Meatloaf's seminal album, "Bat Out of Hell" from 1977.  It is a recognized fact that the length and duration of most simple maintenance tasks can be categorized according to whether they take longer than, "Paradise by the Dashboard Light" played in its entirety, or not.  For instance, in the case of light carbon buildup on the pistons, a gentle scrubbing with a wire brush and Simple Green should commence until Ellen Foley's vocals command Meatloaf (and you, the piston scrubber) to, "Stop Right There!"  In much the same way, an entire afternoon of cleaning pistons, rings, etc. will make sure you're, "praying for the end of time/ to hurry and arrive". 

I probably erred on the side of overcleaning the piston crowns, in that I took off some of the carbon buildup from the skirts by accident.  But I did reveal markings on the piston, "4016M06500" plus "741_H" or so on the bottom.  I'm still curious as to the make of the pistons, kit or whatnot.  I'm curious about many things.  All the tedious work like this is much like Japanese Zen Gardening.  Its strangely meditative and calming, which is good because it makes me relaxed about all the terrible stuff I've done to this bike.  I keep trying to "read" the carbon buildup or marks on the piston in an effort to see telltale evidence of the time the engine overheated or when I overfilled the engine with oil.  But its all just uniform crud.

Also, I visually checked the cam chain, and it seemed fine.  I have a new one, not sure whether I should replace it just for the sake of replacing it.  I guess that goes for other things too, like the valve stem seals.  I mean, the current ones don't leak, but should I replace them anyway?  I'm open to suggestion.

Next up I guess is to assess the head gasket and whether I can actually use it.  Anybody have a good rule of thumb as far as gasket size vs. cylinder size?   

1.  Spic n' Span piston.
2.  Clean grooves.  If you think this pic is boring, think how boring it was for me to actually clean it.
3.  Genuine Green Bay Packers toothbrush, one of the many religious objects that reside in our garage.
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Offline Big Bob

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #10 on: May 03, 2010, 01:54:21 PM »
To remove the engine, we use a combination of cheap motorcycle jack, 2X4 remainders and a 275 lb. man known in the Chicago-land area as "Big Bob".

Currently 325 actually.  But I carry it well.

The engine stand is under my back porch whenever you want to come and get it.  Makes the job a lot easier.

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #11 on: May 03, 2010, 03:59:56 PM »
 Absolute absolute absolutely replace the cam chain and valve seals while you are that far into the motor.Simple now, or a total repeat of engine breakdown later. Oil temp& psi damage + the fact its not the original eng. + the age = unknown factors that will haunt you at some opportune time in the future. My 2 cents.
 Looking good though,enjoying watchin the process. I have a K0 apart and a K8 on the bench ready to bat so I am enjoying the zen of Mr.Honda hovering in the shop as well.

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #12 on: May 03, 2010, 04:24:23 PM »


Currently 325 actually.  But I carry it well.

The engine stand is under my back porch whenever you want to come and get it.  Makes the job a lot easier.

[/quote]

My bad.  Actually been doing all right with leftover tables and such.  But thanks.

In my defense, there hasn't been a total engine breakdown yet.  Yet.  But point taken.  Prolly just as well to check the valve guides.  Off to source a head gasket that isn't oval.
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Offline BlindJoe

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #13 on: May 03, 2010, 04:59:01 PM »


rad

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #14 on: May 04, 2010, 09:10:11 AM »
Friend got that for me from the Hall of Fame in Canton.  Some say its tough being a Packer fan in Bears country.  But most Bears fans settle down and play nice after a few losing seasons.  Really makes them quite docile.

Wow, the "no tech questions" policy on the Project Shop forum is no joke.  But, despite the lack of verified info, I've managed to figure out that a 65mm head gasket is needed, and that APE and CBRZone are the go to people for this.  Should get it on monday.  Forgot how nice it is to order stuff from a human being, not the interweb.  I think I saw my adjustable cam sprocket in their catalog.

Off to clean valves.  Man, sometimes being unemployed rocks.   
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #15 on: May 04, 2010, 10:56:24 AM »
Friend got that for me from the Hall of Fame in Canton.  Some say its tough being a Packer fan in Bears country.  But most Bears fans settle down and play nice after a few losing seasons.  Really makes them quite docile.

Wow, the "no tech questions" policy on the Project Shop forum is no joke.  But, despite the lack of verified info, I've managed to figure out that a 65mm head gasket is needed, and that APE and CBRZone are the go to people for this.  Should get it on monday.  Forgot how nice it is to order stuff from a human being, not the interweb.  I think I saw my adjustable cam sprocket in their catalog.

Off to clean valves.  Man, sometimes being unemployed rocks.   
  that will get you into trouble. ;)
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #16 on: May 04, 2010, 11:52:56 PM »
  that will get you into trouble. ;)

The unemployment?  Or the valve cleaning?  Being a Packer fan?  Prolly all three.

So today I got around to checking, cleaning and measuring all things valves and springs and such. 

Took a wire brush to the ignition chamber with the valves in, and generally took some of the crud off.  They looked good, certainly better than my $400 kz650 with 30K miles.  Chambers showed little sign of oil, and displayed uniform crud buildup.  Valves were a slightly different story, as some of the pics show.  Intake valves were nearly identical, but exhaust valves ranged from ink black crud to white powder, to uhh, almost neither.  #2 had a sooty base, but whiting at the stem.  #3 seemed to have nothing on it.  Weird.  Whatever the issue, its likely an ignition issue, being divided along 1-4 and 2-3.

Accordiing to Hondaman's book (infinitely more helpful than the Clymer manual), the valves last forever, whilst valve guides do not.  The exhaust valves rock back and forth a bit when pulled out a half inch or so, so the guides are not guiding much anymore.  I have no idea if replacing valve guides is hard, but I noticed a circlip at the base of all the guides, so it must be possible.  I'm not pleased to be adding days of wrenching and waiting for parts to arrive, but better now than later.

I measure valve springs and find them to be within spec.  Why do I bother?  Every time I measure the springs, whether its the CB or kz, the springs are always fine. 

This isn't the first engine I've poked in, the $400 kz was a practice run of sorts.  Plus, since its a DOHC, it was like working on two SOHCs at once.  Do the math. 

Tomorrow its time to lap the valves and further wait by the mailbox for parts.  Bike Bandit is being quite bandit-like with my money and parts.  Oh, the bitterly ironic flipside to the wonderfulness of actually riding:  Measuring things with a French sounding tool and waiting a man with brown shorts to bring you things.

Pics:

1.  Cylinder head.  There's a strange marking, it says "8211" and "F7"
2.  #2 spark plug hole, totally stripped and screwed.
3.  Handmade tools for valve removal.  Wood block to brace against valve bottom, white PVC tube to extract valve spring retainers.
4.  All 8 valves, with numbering on the paper.  Quite the range of quality.
5.  Homemade valve remover in action.  Exciting.
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #17 on: May 05, 2010, 04:40:54 AM »
  that will get you into trouble. ;)

The unemployment?  Or the valve cleaning?  Being a Packer fan?  Prolly all three.
The adjustable cam sprocket.
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Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #18 on: May 05, 2010, 10:28:59 PM »
I checked again, and don't think I have an adjustable cam sprocket. 

Today I cheated on my CB with a cheap hussy kz.  Seriously.  Not exactly sure what life the kz had before we got it, but these pics might give you an idea.

1.  Hole in the stator cover, bit of road rash.
2.  Scorching in the #1 cylinder.  Couldn't quite hone it out.  Is that bad?
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Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2010, 05:57:47 PM »
I truly wish sunday was not a day of rest.  But in the absence of mail, reliable senders of parts or anything to do, that's what today is - wasted.  Not much left to do but have a beer and impotently complain.

Speaking of impotent rage, two companies are currently earning my wrath.  One for doing nothing so that I, in turn, am unable to do anything like work on my bike.  And the other for doing something sh!ttily, which made me spend an entire afternoon undoing their sh!tty work.

Usually when you think of a bandit, you think of a dashing man with a cape who steals valuables in dangerous and daring ways.  Unfortunately, the bandit I imagine at BikeBandit.com has plumber's crack and hasn't bothered to plug in the company computer in several weeks.  My $200 order is apparently not enough to rouse someone from their nap in order to check the warehouse for parts and print out a UPS label.  I cancelled my entire order save for some piston rings, and would have actually ordered an additional set - had I actually been able to speak to someone.  Nobody has bothered to pick up the phone every time I call.       

The MAC header and exhaust I bought last year look like they were painted with leftover Soviet housepaint.  Not a full year later, they're covered in thick rust and badly mottled.  So, out come the wire brushes and the drill.  Not sure I'll be able to get everything by the collector, might try a rust remover of some sort.  I'm not very good with shop safety and all that, but I do wear a mask, which makes no difference.  I blow my nose afterward, and its black.  Must be my stubble keeping the mask from sealing.  Hours later, there's a slight improvement, though there's still light rust.  Should be alright with a liberal amount of BBQ paint on top. 

So, I wasted an entire afternoon, which I guess is not a big deal.  But who on earth wastes their own time (and that of their company's) by making such a crappy product?  I mean, they've gone to the trouble of renting or owning factory space, designing a logo, paying employees and investing in tools and equipment.  They've done 99% of the work that goes into making a business work, and then they just crap out and call it a day.  And then decide to charge $300 for their half-assed work.  I'll never recommend anyone get MAC anything. 

Rant over, its Miller time.  And time to stop watching this 'Hawks game so half-assedly.  Damn canucks.

1.  There's like rust underneath the first layer of rust.
2.  Safety first.  Or at least second or third, I'm not a nazi about it or anything.
3.  Slightly better, I guess.  I'm still ever so cross with MAC.
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Offline goaarongo

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2010, 11:27:11 AM »
Looks like you have already done most of the work, but I had some pipes like that once and a homespun sandblasting job did wonders.  A lot of people don't like the texture it produces, but I thought it looked fine.  I borrowed the blaster, and it was a lot easier than expected.  Really gets into the corners where its tough to get a wire wheel. 

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2010, 07:48:22 PM »
Yeah, that would be ideal.  No messy chemicals and all that.  Funny, if there was a clear coat that stood up to the heat, I'd have half a mind to just scrape off the loose stuff and preserve the "patina".  Prolly just as well to return it to a nice plain black look.  A little rust goes a long way.

Got a nice 65mm head gasket in the mail from CBRZone.  Fine folks, looks awesome.  Best of all, the cylinder holes look circular, unlike the oval Athena gaskets.  Tomorrow, I should get the new valve guides, which will be the start of a totally new adventure.  Stay tuned, kids.
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Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2010, 12:30:25 AM »
I have a feeling that finding a good machinist was a lot easier some 30 years ago.  At least it seems that way from all the fading and peeling signs on Ogden Ave. A.K.A. The official beginning of Route 66.  Sort of a graveyard to a bygone era, though to be fair there are quite a few auto parts places past Little Village and Lawndale.

A good machinist is hard to find.  Especially if you can only pay them in beer and homage.  Fortunately, there are such people in ChiVinMoto.  I go to a garage night and am richly rewarded by a member who offers to fabricate a valve guide drift, using his WW2 era lathe.  It even has War Production stickers left on it.  The drift is made, and soon old guides are being pounded out of the head.  I'd cleaned the exhaust ports as best I could, using Simple Green BBQ and a softish wire brush on the end of a Milwaukee drill.  Mixed results at best, but enough carbon was removed to do little damage to the guide passageways once the guides were pounded out.

I freeze the new bronze guides overnight, douse them with liberal helpings of WD-40 and begin the task of pounding them in, using my custom-fab valve guide drift.  Despite the best efforts of myself and the fine fabricator, the new guides do mushroom a bit at the tip, necessitating a good reaming.  Well, they sure do look shiny at least, if not functional at the moment.  I'm on it, though.  I have to be.  The P.O.S. kz650 I'm simultaneously rebuilding seems to only show up on three of four cylinders, if at all.  Looks like I'll have to finish the CB if I want any sort of reliability and design integrity that might result in actual motorcycle riding.

1.  Two men pounding.  Out valves guides, that is.
2.  Hastily sketched specs, finished valve guide drift.
3.  WW2 lathe.  Formerly producing tools of democracy, now making small tools for freedom haters and losers.
4.  New A.P.E. guides in.  They look nice, need reaming.  Like so many things in life.   
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Offline Ogri

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2010, 04:15:13 AM »
Umm,,you might want to roll up your sleeves a bit when you're that close to a spinning chuck   :-[

Offline Skonnie Boy

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Re: Wrist deep in motorcycle guts - My first engine rebuild
« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2010, 07:01:03 AM »
I dunno, he was making me a tool.  I wasn't gonna start lecturing him on shop safety.

Its OK, all beer was kept at a safe distance, though.
"Yeah, I'm hip about time. But I just gotta go."