Author Topic: 1972 CB500: "An Inherited Basket Case." Finally... AN UPDATE!  (Read 34284 times)

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Offline fantino

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This bike has been hanging around in my family to some degree for half a decade now. It started with my cousin (who quickly bought a running CB550 thereafter), who gave it to my brother. My brother was in university for mechanical engineering at the time and also heavily involved with designing and building a solar race car with the university. After graduating he very shortly found work with an engineering firm in Washington, and took the bike with him. Naturally he never really had much time to devote to this project, but he was always very determined to give the bike a new life... Sadly, he passed away in a climbing accident while temporarily abroad for work in the UK, and so the bike finally came to end up with me. While I possessed little knowledge of engine mechanics or motorcycles, I decided this bike was one of the most significant things of his I had left, and I've become determined to learn everything I can about motorcycle mechanics, and put this bike together in a way that would make my brother proud. Since I'm emotionally attached to this bike and project for obvious reasons, and money will not keep me from bringing this project to completion (even though I rarely have very much of it :-p).

I've been slowly plugging away for the last year while I've poured over books, magazines, forums and whatever else I've been able to find to learn how to actually go about this. I'm starting to feel pretty good about my capabilities now, I've always been good at taking things apart, though putting them back together usually posed a challenge, haha. After a few minor setbacks and some long hard thinking about the project, I recently decided to switch my approach from "just get it running" to "be patient, be thorough, and do it right the first time so it doesn't become a project again in the near future".

So on to the bike itself, it's a 73 CB500 from the serial numbers, and it's a complete basket case. From the best I can tell it was a definite barn find (I'm basing this on the layer of crud on the hubs smelling vaguely of dry cow #$%*). The bike has been in boxes since my cousin bought it. Literally everything disassembled and thrown into boxes, with little or no labeling. Half of my time has been spent simply identifying what different parts are and where they go (I'm still working on a big box of assorted fasteners...). To give you an idea, here is a picture of my brother with the bike spread out on the garage floor:



I wish I had take more pictures of the parts before things had been sorted and cleaned. Pretty much every exterior part had a nice layer of rust, oil, dirt and cow crap coating it. The pistons and head were totally caked with carbon and grime, and there was a fair bit of pitting on the head and sleeves. Clutch plates were all worn down. The carbs were probably the worst. Sitting for god knows how long filled with water and rotting gasoline. The float chamber of #1 carb was so badly corroded that big chunks of aluminum would come off the jet seat when you pulled the jet. The forks were totally covered in deep rust. I could go on I guess, but you probably get the point. Everything on the bike is a problem. On the plus side, it came with a large number of extra parts (about half a CB550 worth it looks like...), and the tank is clean and straight! Still, by all accounts not worth the trouble, but due to the attachment to the bike, it's not as simple as dropping the money on a runner and calling it a day. Plus then I don't learn anything or get to waste me hard earned money slowly and consistently!

Anyways, up to this point, I have cleaned nearly everything, found and reconditioned a rack of carbs, found a new cylinder head with no pitting, good seats (actually, it looks like it was bored out and non-integral seats were pressed in) and not too much wear (also came with new already gapped plugs and a gasket set!). I also found new forks, painted them and rebuilt them with new seals. The old coils were trashed, so I bought dyna coils and wires, as well as a new points assembly, since the old unit had seen better days. I had also honed the cylinders with a flex hone the best I could (there was still a little pitting near the top on #1 and #3), cleaned up the pistons and bought new rings. And I had also taken apart the valvetrain, cleaned all the carbon off the valves and out of the ports, lapped it and reassembled. The bottom end looked to be in good shape through the oil pan, and had definitely seen at least some attention from my brother (but I don't know to what extent), so I decided to leave the case together. Here was the motor before (or rather during) my setback with the cylinder head\valves:



also the forks


Wasn't looking so terrible at the time! Anyways, since the mess-up, I've decided to go a little more extreme with the rebuild and do everything far more thoroughly. There's really no rush, and I want to see this done well and done right. I'm am now planning to crack the case and replace bearings and seals and do a proper inspection of the crank and transmission. I'll probably paint the case black while it's split. I'm going to have new dynoman valve guides, new valves, get the seals recut and the head surface milled. Oh yeah, I welded a new rear peg mount on where the old one got all bent up, and the frame and swingarm are at the powder coater as we speak.

I'm debating my options for the jugs, I'm definitely going to have them bored, and since I'm going to that trouble, do I stick with a stock overbore kit (probably .5mm) or go all out and do a big bore and have the head ported for better flow and rejet once I'm to that point? I've had a hard time finding big bore options for the CB500 that I can actually find replacement (or ANY) rings for, even after wading through countless forum posts on CB big bores. A motorcycle shop I know of has a set of yoshimura pistons and marked 550 on the side (I think they're 59.5mm?) but no rings, and I'm betting it's impossible to source a NOS set of rings for them nowadays. Any advice on 500 overboring?

I'm also trying to gather more information about improving the clutch and transmission, as I've read nothing but negative comments of its stock performance. Maybe someone would care to chime in on some helpful tips? I read that using a combination of the thinner clutch discs\plates from 550 and 650s added an extra plate and disc and helped clean up clutch slip. I don't know much about the transmission itself yet, but I'm open to any advice, suggestions, propositions, etc. regarding what should and\or can be done to the 500 tranny.

I also have no master cylinder, so I need to figure that situation out...

Anyways, that's it for now. Progress moves at the pace I can afford it, but I'll probably have lots of pictures and questions and planning being thrown around as it comes up. If you did indeed trudge through my ramblings, thanks!
« Last Edit: September 10, 2011, 04:50:14 AM by fantino »

Offline camelman

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2010, 12:29:46 AM »
Fantino,

I am sorry to hear about your loss.  I have a brother and couldn't imagine losing him.  I think you are on to a great and noble pursuit resurrecting a project your brother started, and I hope you find the help you are looking for on this forum.  I will help in any way I can, although your typing is a little verbose for me to follow without rereading (I'm not capable of rereading, so please shorten your paragraphs).  ;)

Camelman

PS: please restate exactly what you are looking for help on in a numbered format, and I'm sure you will get great "numbered" responses.
1972 350f rider: sold
1972 350f/466f cafe: for sale
1977 CB400f cafe:sold
1975 CB400f rider: sold
1970 CB750 K0 complete bike: sold
2005 Triumph Sprint ST 1050 rider

We've got to cut it off... and then come down on rockets.  (quoted from: seven minutes of terror)

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2010, 01:23:44 AM »
Thanks for the response! And yeah, I do have a tendency to be less than concise :-p

These are the things I'm working on at the moment:

1. Pistons\Cylinders: I have two blocks, both are too pitted to be honed properly. I'm now considering my options for overboring.
              -Do I stick with a stock overbore piston sizes (Rocky piston kits on eBay are easy to find, OEM suppliers all carry rings for them)
OR
              -Do I start looking into big bore kits since I'm already paying for cylinder boring? will it be worth it? There's a rad NOS yoshi 59.5mm piston kit for sale locally, but it has no rings. Are there other rings that happen to fit, like how the 750 Yoshi big bore kit uses 350 rings? Are there other decent big bore kits or modern pistons (under $300) appropriate for the 500 with easy(ish) to find rings?

2. Transmission: I've finally decided to crack the crankcases to replace the seals and bearings. I've heard lots of negative comments about the 500s tranny and clutch. Is there anything I can do while I'm in there to improve on this? Any cool modifications I haven't heard about yet (I haven't heard of any really...)? And finally, can a 550 clutch basket be a direct replacement on a 500?

3. Valve guides: This is more out of curiosity, I'll be replacing the valve guides with new ones regardless BUT can used valve guides be pressed out of one head and into another?

traveler

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2010, 05:21:55 AM »
Welcome!  Glad to see ya, and hope you stick around!

Wester Hills Honda is THE place to go, IMHO for parts.  Sometimes expensive, but more than likely they will have the part.

If the bores are clean, "mic" then out....if they are within tolerance, I'd say just throw new rings on the pistons and move forward with the build.

The yosh pistons are cool, but you won't gain much of a power increase for the money spent.

~Joe

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #4 on: May 04, 2010, 12:07:51 PM »
Thanks Traveler, I definitely think I will be sticking around. A definite wealth of information here to say the least.

One cylinder block is marred really deep on one cylinder wall, looks like something pretty bad happened, the other three cylinders are within spec by a slim margin (I'm guessing this was the original block). The other block has two cylinders that are pretty much right at the wear limit, but even after spending some time with the flex hone, minor pitting still exists (It feels like paper to the touch, but if I drag my finger nail over it, I can definitely feel it). I'm thinking either block will require boring, the second block is probably the one to go with though...

If the top of one of the cylinders where the block meets the head is slightly rounded off and not a sharp edge like the rest, will this cause leakage issues?

As far as the Yoshi pistons go, I'm not so much concerned with the power increase as the durability and availability of parts. But I'm guessing they will lose out in those regards?

traveler

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2010, 12:16:24 PM »
Unless the Yosh pistons are cheap, oversize, and you have rings for them, I'd pass....by that's jsut me. :-\

Sounds like you either need to go on eBay and buy a 500 cylinder that is still good, or bore and buy some oversize pistons and rings.

~Joe

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2010, 01:23:43 PM »
Probably good advice to pass on the Yoshi's.

I think for the sake of longevity, boring and new oversize pistons wouldn't be such a bad idea. The extra expense is worth the peace of mind and the reduction of chances of having to open the engine up for awhile after.

I also figure it will help me narrow things down when I get to troubleshooting why the bike isn't running correctly once I get to firing it up :-p

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2010, 09:12:22 PM »


New intake valves today. I love getting mail from Thailand, best envelopes ever :-) I took a bunch of other pictures while I was at it, bear with me...

Here's the #1 cylinder off that first block I mentioned:


And here's the worst of the remaining pitting on the second cylinder block up close:


What the rest look like:


Here's what I meant by having a rounded off edge on one cylinder, compare it to the sharp one on the left. Don't know if that is an issue?


Worst looking piston...


And just for laughs, my collection of top end parts right now:


Frame and swingarm pre-powder coating:


That's it for today! :-)

traveler

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2010, 05:17:51 AM »
yep...needs a rebore

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2010, 11:36:51 PM »
I got the frame back from the powder coater today, it looks beautiful! Better than new :-) I'm really happy with finish I chose too, it's 60% gloss, matte enough to not look dusty and dull so quick and not show so many imperfections in the welds and metal, but gloss enough to still look really slick. I'll post some pictures tomorrow when it's light out again.

I also split my cases today. Removed the head studs while I was at it (one was REALLY stuck in there, I messed it up getting it out. Oops! I was thinking of getting new studs anyways...). One case bolt was broken too, though not from me. I barely turned it and it came out. Being held in by gasket cement I guess. I'll have to extract that  >:(

Has anyone here ever considered putting all new fasteners in their engine? I'm definitely replacing every screw I can with stainless steel Allen bolts hardware (so many stripped Phillips head screws on this bike!!!). Seriously considering new bolts for the case too. I just don't trust old fasteners...

The internals looks pretty good. I'm 100% 50/50 on replacing the bearings. It's probably not necessary, but when's the next time I'm going to have the case open?

A couple of oil seals are a bit chewed up, I'm glad I'll have the chance to put in new ones.

Transmission looks good, I haven't measured anything yet, but there's no broken teeth or excessive visual wear on any of the other internals, except for the middle shift fork. It's all chewed up and ground down. This seems to be a common problem, and explains why the shifter was sticking so much when I was trying to cycle through the gears before. Apparently 350 twins use the same shift forks? I scoured all the threads on shift forks I could find, but didn't actually find any information on workarounds, solutions or modifications to fix this problem with the CB500s.

Does anyone have any useful 500 related transmission tidbits while I still have this thing opened up?

I also made a big list of everything that still needs to be done so I can keep track of my progress. I'll probably post that tomorrow, it's definitely a big list...

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2010, 08:12:41 PM »
Today was my day off. I put the frame and swingarm together today. Still happy with how it turned out, so that's a good sign I suppose :-) I also put a new coat of paint onto the lower yoke



Spent the rest of the afternoon cleaning up my engine workspace, as it was getting cluttered and dirty. Here's the split cases as they are right now:



I'm having a hell of a time getting the screw on the side of the shift drum out. Even my trusty impact driver hasn't done a thing. Is there some secret to this I don't know about and the manual doesn't mention? Here's some pics of that middle shift fork, pretty chewed up looking. I'm looking for a replacement that wont cost me $50+...




Anyways, that's it for today. Below is my big list of things to do, I'll keep crossing things out as they are finished up.

To Do

Frame Welded, powder coated
Carbs cleaned, rebuilt.
New coils, wire, plugs.
Replace intake valves.
Forks cleaned, painted, rebuilt (new seals, 15W oil)
Replace Points
Replace Oil Filter
Wheels disassembled

Check tolerances on bottom end components
Replace shift fork
New bottom end oil seals and bearings as required
Cam and primary chain?
Paint cases
New cylinder studs
Reassemble case (replace fasteners if possible)

Replace cylinders, rings, etc. with overbore kit
Bore cylinders
Replace valve guides, cut valve seals, mill block if needed.
Replace exhaust valves
Combine cam covers

Assemble top end (new gaskets)
Clutch plates
Polish side covers, replace phillips bolts with SS allen bolts.
Mount engine in frame
Paint spokes, Rims, Hubs + relace
New tires
Replace master cylinder assy. (possibly rebuild)
New brake pads, front and rear
New chain, battery, cables (SS brake lines), bars, grips
Rebuild petcock
Paint old tank, look into fabricating custom tank.
Paint seat, sew leather pad, figure out lights and mounting hardware.
Fabricate new wiring harness, replace regulator and rectifier, test system
New keys cut
Polish exhaust
Tune it
Ride it
Fix it some more....
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 03:43:52 AM by fantino »

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2010, 09:58:17 PM »
Is there any compelling reason for me to replace any of the primary shaft or transmission bearings? None of them seem to have any noticeable free play, and they're all clean and roll smooth. Everything else (save for the shift forks...) in the bottom end is in really good shape, so I don't have any reason to believe there were ever any significant problems with the bottom end.

I noticed a little bit of sawing (about 2 inches long, 1/8" wide and deep) on the crankcase near the primary chain. I should probably replace that while I'm in there. So far DSS has the cheapest one, even after shipping at ~$80. Does anyone have any leads on a cheaper chain?

Also I've been scouring the forums for modifications, improvements or really anything useful concerning the shift drum\forks\transmission on the 500s, still haven't really found anything. Anyone, anyone?

Once I pull the primary shaft I'm probably going to measure the journal on the cranks and plastigauge the bearings. They all have assembly grease on them, so I'm pretty confident that my brother did indeed crack the cases when he started. I doubt any of the crank bearings will need replacing, but better safe than sorry, eh?

I'm pretty low on funds, so I have to focus on cheap, labour intensive projects right now. Maybe I should start working on making a new wiring harness.

Offline haill

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2010, 04:49:13 AM »
Most definitely change the primary chain, the cam chain & the cam chain guides, they should be looked at for wear and replaced for they have a hardlife.
David Silvers is a great company to deal with. Their prices are good and the shipping is quick and very reasonable.
Get a complete gasket kit and oil seal kit from them as well. The orings for the oil pump are not included in the kits but they sell them separately and need to be replaced once removed
I have just finished restoring a 71 CB500 that the primary chain had eaten into the cases nearly into the oil gallery.
the previous owner had driven it around on 3 cylinders for most of the time he owned it for couldn't get it to run on 4...
regards Keith
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 04:51:31 AM by haill »

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2010, 07:38:09 PM »
Thanks haill. I actually saw some posts you made about your bike when I was searching to try and solve a few problems. I guess it going as long as it did on three cylinders is a testament to the bikes robustness :-) The sawing on my case is pretty similar to yours, though not as deep. I was thinking of maybe using a durafix brazing rod to fill in the area and file it down flush to bring the area back up before I put new chains and such in.

I measured the crank journal and bearings today. The cranks measured no more than .0005" out of round at any point along the crank, and all the bearings measured out to .0015 or less clearance when I plastigauged them. Nice to know there's at least a few things that don't need replacing :-)

While everything is out of the cases, I'm taking to opportunity to mask things off properly and paint them with hi-temp engine enamel. Going with gloss black. I really like what goaarongo did with the fins on his paint job in this thread http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=70456.0 I'm thinking of maybe sanding down the fin edges on the case and head to bare metal after painting them black to make the engine look a little less monotonous inside of the black frame. I'll probably also take the time to polish all of the oil plugs, side covers, tappet covers and any other aluminum surface I leave bare. Pics to follow I'm sure!

Offline haill

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2010, 08:01:47 PM »
not sure what to say about the  brazing the cases from what I've read they do not weld well, but brazing them might be effective. But very risky. Myself would be leery of causing further trouble to an issue that is just cosmetic  and never seen . if they're just scratches that are not that deep to concerned oneself that it might rupture than don't look at it anymore and continue along your way.
One could cold weld, fill it with jb weld etc. but would worry about the possibility of it failing and floating around later in the motor causing much greater damage.


Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2010, 08:30:33 PM »
Yeah, I was leary of using anything like JB Weld or other epoxies inside of the cases, I don't want it being scraped off by a chain or falling off and causing a ton of expensive damage. Probably a good idea to just ignore it and let it be. I just worry about chain stretch down the line causing more wear and eventual failure.

Offline haill

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #16 on: May 14, 2010, 04:15:02 AM »
that's why you put a new one in. cheap insurance at under 100 dollars. it seems to be a weak link in the design of the motor. the chain stretch and the clearance between the chain and the cases are quite tight no way to stop it but get a new chain and 30,000 miles later maybe another.
obvious dependent on who owns the bike. if the bike is run in good tune it is probably not much of an issue but unbalanced carbs and poor maintenance add up to sorry looking cases.
it a good place to spend money, the primary the cam chain and the guides.
when your done rebuilding the bike and enjoying the fruits of your labours its great to know that the outside is as well done as the in.

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #17 on: May 15, 2010, 11:52:03 PM »


Finished repainting the forks and triple tree. Engine enamel definitely seems to be the way to go. Nice shiny finish after clear coat and it's WAY more durable than krylon, rustoleum, etc. standard spray paint. I also moved the frame to a much nicer assembly area upstairs outside the basement :-)

I also finished painting the crankcases, I'm really happy with how they turned out. Just gonna keep em all black and shiny I think, instead of making the fin tips a different colour:





I hope to finish painting the spokes, hubs and rims this week, maybe look into bearings so I can get this thing rolling around again.

A friend crashed his Jetta this week, so some of the money I was setting aside for the motorcycle is instead going towards buying his exhaust and Audi TT calipers and rotors super cheap for my GTI before he sells them to someone else. So parts related progress will be slow for a little while :-p

I'm trying to look into ways I can increase the durability of new or rebuilt shift forks. I hope someone with more knowledge on hard coatings can fill me in on whether or not hard chroming\anodizing\ceramic would help reduce wear on the component. Apparently undercutting the gears would also be beneficial. It'd be nice to find someone in the US Pacific Northwest who could do the work for a reasonable price...

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2010, 03:53:06 PM »
 I set the hollow engine into the frame and put all the other bits and bobs on so I could see how things would look and so I could get some more style ideas. Kind of a teasing excercise, but I at least learned my 4-2 turnout exhaust looks a lot better than I anticipated. I will likely just clean it up and not worry about finding a different one.

I also realized I failed to mention that I've never been on a bike bigger than 80cc, let alone one with a manual transmission. So after I gruel through this rebuild, I get to learn how to ride a real motorcycle :-p

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2010, 11:29:40 AM »
I learned a good lesson this week: Stop counting. When I start running down how much money I've spent and how much more there is to spend, it gets pretty depressing. So I need to just stop counting altogether :-p

On that note, I ordered my chains and oil seal kit from DSS today, shipping was a bit spendy, but it still works out to less than buying them new from anyone else.

After calling around to a number of shops on the west coast and elsewhere in the US, I've settled (well, not so much settled as they were the only ones who said yes) on Fast By Gast to hardweld my shift forks. After speaking with Jason I've also decided to have my transmission undercut as well, to help alleviate the weakness in the tranny design so I don't just burn through the shift forks again.

The undercutting is a little more than I can afford right now, so it'll have to wait a few weeks probably. I think in the long run it will be worth it though.

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2010, 11:51:33 AM »
I managed to get a bit of cash together, I think I can actually afford to send the whole tranny off this week to get it worked on, so yey.

My cousin sent me a letter in the mail that had a long lost bill of sale from the original owner to him. So while I still don't have a title (no titles in Alberta, just bills of sale and registration slips), I at least have two generations of BoS documents when I apply for a new title with the State of Washington.

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2010, 11:21:35 PM »
The new chains and oil seals came today :-) Only took four days to get to Washington since DSS put it in the mail, I'm super impressed with their service! I also picked up a new petcock strainer bowl, since mine was all gnarled up. I'm out of the country for memorial day weekend, but I can't wait to get the bottom end most-way back together.

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2010, 07:31:12 PM »
I need some advice: I want a totally new set of exhaust valves. OEM they're over $200 a set everywhere I look, does anyone have any experience with having custom valves made (by like KPMI, or whomever)? Will it cost significantly more than buying the OEM Honda ones and would they be of better quality? Alternatively, am I just missing some treasure trove of cheap exhaust valves that fit my bike?

I sent my transmission and shift forks to Fast By Gast today. Hopefully I'll have it back in a week or two so I can put the crankcases back together and start working on the top end again. Yesterday I put the new chains on and put the crank and mainshaft back into the cases. I also replaced all the oil seals. Yey for progress!

Turns out my rims are so rusty there's the odd pinhole through the cancer rust, so I guess I need to find new rims as well. Perhaps I should go aluminum or something lighter and more corrosion resistant. Any suggestions on new rims would be rad.

Online bryanj

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2010, 09:25:49 AM »
Dave Silver
Semi Geriatric ex-Honda mechanic and MOT tester (UK version of annual inspection). Garage full of "projects" mostly 500/4 from pre 73 (no road tax in UK).

Remember "Its always in the last place you look" COURSE IT IS YOU STOP LOOKIN THEN!

Offline fantino

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Re: 1973 CB500: An Inherited Basket Case
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2010, 03:50:10 PM »
I'm coating them red, so it's a waste to buy chromed rims, especially since shipping a box that large from England to Washington would be none too cheap. They have good prices on exhaust valves, but they're never actually in stock (and I have no reason to believe they will be any time soon...)