Topic: 1972 CB500: "An Inherited Basket Case." Finally... AN UPDATE!

[fantino]

Just bought a .25 oversize ART piston kit for $50. My plan now is to take the two best sleeves from each cylinder and have them put into one block and then all bored to spec with the new pistons.

The transmission is in NY now, hopefully I'll have that back by next week so I can put the bottom end back together and get (re)started on the top end.

I've also been doing some preliminary work to adapt a set of GSXR rearsets to my bike using stock frame brackets. My dads old business partner at the sign shop I grew up working at has a big CNC router table, so I'll be able to get my mounting brackets fabricated for the cost of materials. I'll have to figure out the linkage, but perhaps that will be a good opportunity to learn how to use my brothers little metal lathe.

The axle on my front wheel is hella stuck, I have tried heat, pb blaster, wailing on it a bit. No go. Do I have any options for affordable but perhaps more modern hubs or wheels which will fit in the stock fork\swingarm configuration?

[traveler]

On the front axle....you may have to have the axle pressed out, which will destroy the bearings, and COULD ruin the hub.  I have the front wheel off of my 550 and it has new All Balls sealed bearings in it.....I haven't used it, so the bearings are brand new.  If interested, let me know.  Might be easier to get another axle and wheel, but the press will work (or you will destroy the hub).

I'd go 40 bucks including shipping.....

~Joe

[fantino]

That might be the way to go... I'll get back to you after I take another crack at it. The quote for fixing my forks and undercutting the tranny was nearly $250 less than anticipated, so I'm not quite as destitute as I had planned on being :-)

[fantino]

My .25 piston kit came in the mail today, looks beautiful, so shiny and new. I took the two best sleeves from the worse looking cylinder block and swapped them with the two really harsh looking sleeves from the better looking block. All that's left to do is get the block bored out for the new pistons and perhaps milled and it'll be good to go.

I also picked up 3 NOS exhaust valves for $60 on the interwebs. If I can get a decent price on one more I'll have saved nearly $150 from OEM distributors in North America. A new set of valve guides and a valve job and the head will be ready to go as well. Perhaps down the line I will look into getting the head ported and polished by Mrieck.

Finally feel like things are moving at a good pace again :-)

[fantino]

I've been doing a lot of waiting for things to come in the mail lately, and things are finally arriving!

Most importantly my transmission arrived from Fast By Gast, and I must say, it's beautiful! They did a really outstanding job on the undercut and rebuilding the shift forks. Even just turning the parts by hand, I can tell what a huge difference it has made. It actually shifts through the gears now! They also did a really bang up job cleaning all the parts, even the parts they didn't work on. Looks brand new. I'll post some pics of their handiwork before I button the engine back up. Even though it was expensive, overall I'm really pleased I had this done.

I now have a complete set of brand new intake and exhaust valves ready to go. Just need the guides and a valve job and the head will be ready to go.

I also have a new front wheel on the way courtesy of Joe (Traveler), which I'm stoked about. Still need to find an okay rear rim, so I might go try the motorcycle wreckers down in Lynnwood sometime soon.

I rebuilt the petcock as well. New gaskets, filter and bowl (the old one was chewed up).

Today I also went to Fastenal and ordered in as many replacement case bolts as they actually carried. A few of the really long case bolts aren't carried by them (or seemingly anyone :-/) but I figure the more I can replace with modern high quality grade 8 bolts, the better. They'll probably be around sometime next week and I'll be able to close the bottom end back up again (super exciting!).

Last but not least, I started planning stages of building a new seat, tank and side covers. This will probably be the last thing I actually complete, but I want to get started on the more tedious parts sooner rather than later (plugs and molds). After reading a long and detailed thread on the BARF about building a custom CF tank, I'm thinking I will probably be going with carbon fiber backed with kevlar for my own tank and seat. Contemplating some of the hybrid cloths with the really rad colored kevlar weaves, but I have lots of time to think that over :-)

[fantino]

I got a surprise in the mail today! Not just one, but two wheels. Thanks Joe! New nipples, refinished spokes and a little TLC on the rims and I'll be able to roll around again! Much appreciation for the huge favor. I'm planning on doing a dual disc conversion for the front wheel as well.

I've started rethinking the black engine... I don't feel confident the paint is going to hold up under street use, and I'm not sure I want the bike to be *that* black. As hot as black is.... So I'm going to strip the cases before I button them back up, bead blast them, and polish up the covers and such.

Speaking of the case... still removing that stuck tap in the upper case. Slow going, but the alum solution is slowly dissolving the tap. I'm afraid to do anything that will mar up the hole anymore, as it seems like I might not even be able to retain the original thread size (M6) with a helicoil. M8 perhaps.

I decided to up the game even more... thinking about adding a little extra into my budget and dropping a CB650 cam into the head and getting a full port and polish from Mrieck. I figure I'm already this far into not just fixing, but improving the bike, what's a little more money and time?

More updates to follow!

[traveler]

650 cam requires a 650 tachometer....500/550 tach won't work.

~Joe

[fantino]

I noticed that in a few of the threads I read about the conversion. The 650 cam has 5 grooves instead of 3 or something like that so it needs a new drive gear and tach. Shouldn't be too big of a deal, just need to keep my eyes peeled for a little while :-)

[fantino]

It's been really warm here in Washington and I've had a few days to work out in the sun on my deck. So nice!

I finally got that busted tap dissolved with alum. Takes a long time, but it's a neat trick I'm going to keep in mind for the future. Unfortunately, the hole is larger than 1/4", so I can't fit an M6 helicoil in there. I could go up to an M8 without any issues it seems, or I could try filling the hole with alumaloy or JB Weld, drilling it out and inserting a helicoil so I can keep the stock bolt size.

I stripped the cases and gave them a nice semi-polish with a fine wire wheel. I'm much happier with this solution. I don't want to overrun the bike with black, and I think this will be a much more durable and easy to maintain finish over gloss black... Will post pics sometime soon (I keep saying that!).

I also disassembled both wheels and brushed off and converted all the rust in the rim grooves. Trying to decide whether to splurge on more powdercoating or just paint them with engine enamel and bake for the time being. New spokes and nipples on the way as well.

I've been picking up extra shifts at work so I can sock away that extra cash for a 650 cam and a Mrieck port job. Really excited about that. In the spirit of piling on as much extra work for myself as possible, I'm also externally routing the oil lines to the head, since the cases are still cracked open and it's not that difficult of a mod.

Anyways, another day off tomorrow, more to come! (Hopefully my fastenal order will be in soon as well!)

[fantino]

Here's a few pics of my transmission I meant to post a while back. Nice and shiny, you can see nice and up close where they've undercut the engagement dogs.. I've also included a pic of the before and after of the shift forks, $75 was a whole lot cheaper than finding a NOS part (which seemed to be impossible anyways...).

Shift forks
Before




After



Transmission





I threaded the oil passages in the upper case and head and put in 1/4" set screws with permanent thread lock today, also removed the plugs on either side of the head so I can put in fittings for the oil lines. Will probably do what most others have done and access the main gallery from the right side. I guess the plug isn't quite meaty enough though, so I might need to have the concave space on the back end of the plug welded in... Anyways, some time soonish I'll find a hose shop in town to make up the lines and fittings.

[fantino]

I bought a 650 cam, tach and drive gear for $90 today at the bike junkyard, all in nice shape. I'm good to go for the cam swap now. Really I'm down to waiting til I have enough cash for a stage 3 port from Mrieck (about halfway there. I figure I need to get a valve job anyway, the difference between a stage 1 and stage 3 is pretty minor). I also fixed the wrecked bolt hole in the top case and am just waiting on bolts (case and connecting rod) so I can finally button it back up.

In the process of painting my rims too, nice and red, just waiting for clearcoat. A set of DSS spokes is on the way and the hubs are starting to look nice and shiny after polishing. With a new set of tires, the bike should finally be rolling around again soon!

I realized that the two rotors I have are different sizes when I started fitting parts together. One is 10.75" the other is 11.5". I assume the former was from the 500 and the latter from the extra 550 parts. Since my forks are 550, I guess I'll need to find another 11.5" to accomodate the caliper mounting? Should probably do more research on this.

[fantino]

Conrod bolt question: Should I use new Honda nuts on them, or can I go down to Fastenal and get a set of grade 8 metric nuts and use those? Also how do you all actually torque down these nuts? I can't find any sockets thin enough to make clearance and I can't measure torque with a regular wrench...

Also I posted this elsewhere, but maybe someone else will see it. I'm running external oil lines. I've seen them done on Bwallers bike with -5 hose to a -4 split. Could I get away with -8 hose to a -6 split, or is this too large to keep sufficient oil pressure in the galley?

I Finished painting those rims yesterday, going to give them until tomorrow to cure, then I'll start lacing them up.



Close-up of the actual finish...


I got my spokes from DSS as well, everything looks fine and dandy, except one set came with yellow-zinc chromate coated nipples. I already emailed them about it, they won't swap out the nipples with a silver set from another kit, so my options are to return the whole kit for refund, wait until they sell 32 sets with yellow nipples and start bringing in silver ones, or live with it. Might just have to buy a set of nickel plated ones from Buchanans.

[fantino]

Argh. Screwed up the paint on the front rim TWICE now. Frustrating as all hell. Seriously considering spending the $$$ to get them properly blasted and powder coated, since they will probably see a lot of wear from the road. Also accidentally ruined a tach out of sheer clumsiness, so it's been a rather frustrating week!

I clamped the front hub down into the lathe and sanded down all the old scratches, pits and casting marks. Instead of mirror polishing, I've decided to go with a nice brushed finish on the hubs. Looks pretty nice, but now I have to figure out how to do the rear hub...

New conrod nuts on the way. Cases will be buttoned up as soon as they get here.

[fantino]

My nuts came in the mail. The replacement part is flanged and the originals were not, but I doubt it will make much of a difference (they were also coated in a white powder of sorts...). I assembled the rods on the crank today, bearing key facing the exhaust side of the engine and the bolts torqued to spec in 3 stages. Everything else is back in the cases, I have a few more case bolts in the mail still and it'll all be back in one piece.

I came upon a few sheets of 4'x8'x3" foam today on the way home. Sliced it up and put it in my car. I now have a couple of good size blanks to start shaping the plugs for my new tank. I'll probably try a few different designs and go with the one that looks  and feels best.

Lots of shifts at work coming up... can finally afford that Stage 3 port soon!

[fantino]

Got my valve guides and APE cylinder studs from Dynoman today, pretty stoked. Head is ready to be shipped off to to Mrieck as soon as I have another couple bills in my savings (probably by the end of this weekends bar shifts!).

Fastenal was never able to get the bolts I needed, which is a bummer. Took them three weeks to figure this out. I ordered what I needed from TekBolts, nearly two weeks since I placed my order, still nothing.... hopefully something soon. I'm itching to get these cases together.

Instead I spent the last two weeks reorganizing my work space and setting up more tools I had in storage. Found a ton of books on materials, flow, composite construction, engine theory, machining, welding and lots of other neat crap my brother had boxed up when he moved to the UK. Lots of reading ahead.

Also taught myself how to use SolidWorks (another neat thing I found with his stuff!).

Goal is to have the whole engine buttoned up by the end of the month so I can start focusing on electrical.

[fantino]

Sent my head off to Mike Rieck today! In a number of weeks I'll have my head back with a fresh stage 3 port job from the best in the business. Pretty exciting if you ask me :-)

[Lavis500]

Did you ever figure out how to properly torque those conrod nuts?  You said a normal wrench would fit, right?  Get a Crow's foot in the right size.  It looks like an open end wrench with a tiny nub for the ratchet to fit into.  Place it so that the open end is at a 90 degree angle from the wrench and torque as normal.  Even if you've already finished, maybe this will help you in the future!

[fantino]

I thought about crows foot, but it would change the length of the torque wrench and therefore the torque readings and I'd still only get 1/2 turn before I'd hit the bottom of the conrod... (plus the only hardware store in town with a 12mm crowsfoot only sold it in a set for $180!!!)

I ended up buying a cheap 12mm socket and grinding the outside down on the bench grinder until it was thin enough to make clearance. It looks ugly, but it worked the part and only cost $2 :-)

[Lavis500]

By turning the crows foot 90 degrees it doesn't change the length of the torque wrench.  That's how the arm teaches us to torquestuff on blackhawks, and they only FLY.    We do the same thing dogbone sockets in hard to reach spots.  Anyways, good to now a thinwalled socket worked well, too!

[fantino]

Oh, I suppose with folding crows foot that would work, I was only thinking about fixed ones. But yeah, the thin-walled socket worked really well and practically cost nothing.

Lots of progress made the last two days :-)

My bolts FINALLY came in the mail from TEKBOLT. I guess their ordering system went down a couple weeks ago around when I placed my order and caused a delay. No big deal.

As such, the cases are back together!!! Yey. Finally, I feel like I have something that once again resembles an actual engine. I laid down a nice thin layer of Threebond 1194 along the edges and dropped everything together. Made sure all the oil seals lined up and I torqued down all the crank bolts to spec. Finished up with all the other case bolts and then installed the new APE HD cylinder studs with red threadlocker torqued to 20ft-lbs. I installed the jugs and a spare head (the good one is with Mrieck now! :-D) and torqued them down lightly to let everything cure in proper alignment. I also reinstalled the shifting mechanism, oil pump, neutral switch, rotor and points plate (which I never really paid attention to when I purchased it, but it's a TEC plate with TEC points. No fiddling with Diachii points for me!)





Looks pretty good, I think! Of course I'm always worried that I did something wrong along the way and the whole thing is going to blow up, but I'm pretty sure I'm just being silly. I'm really happy I took the extra time and money to split the cases, get the tranny fixed and undercut, replace the chains, seals and connecting rod bolts. I feel confident now that I will have a strong and trouble free bottom end for many miles.

Unfortunately, the bolt hole I repaired with JB weld didn't take to torquing (big surprise...) and I stripped it out mostly. The bolt still holds in there, but it's not really doing any clamping. I just ended up putting lots of gasket cement down there to make sure it's sealed and torqued it down as much as it would. With all those other bolts and gasket cement keeping the cases together, I really doubt I'll see a leak from there.

Check out these sweet 10.9 metric flange bolts from TEKBOLT, they have smaller 8mm heads and look very nice:



I noticed the new front sprocket I had sitting in a box was 16t and the new rear sprocket I have on the wheel Joe sent to me is 37t. I plugged all the various ratios into a gearing calculator, and it's pretty close to the same results as a 38 rear with a 17 front, which is suggested for extra hop up in a post by Hondaman. Not sure if that little extra difference will be too much. I don't want to strain the motor too badly.
Might be wise to switch to a 17t front though, perhaps? I also haven't really considered doing a chain conversion yet, so maybe that will be a factor in things.

Anyways, that's about it for right now. It'll be a few weeks before I get anything back from Mrieck, so I'll probably get my jugs bored out and decked in the mean time. Also looking for a gasket kit and a set of clutch plates (maybe Vesrah? I found some Barnett ones for an okay price...).

Oh, one last thing, I just picked up a 22mm x 1.5 to 8an flange hydraulic fitting with O-ring grooves on Pegasus Racing Supplies for $12. It appears like it will be a direct fit for the oil gallery on the right hand side of the engine, so I can directly connect a hose to this nice sturdy fitting for my external oil feed. Will post results once it arrives.

[fantino]

I decided to tackle my exhaust today. I was at one point planning on ditching what I had for a 4-1 or something, but I've read good things about using 4-2 on these bikes, it seems like a nice enough exhaust, and I've already spent a lot of money. I'm very undecided about the whole turnout look though. I've been thinking about straight cutting or slash cutting the ends. I don't want to make any hasty decisions though, so I'm going to sit on it for a while. Any suggestions are very welcome! As are some pics of bikes with turnouts that actually look cool...

After a lot of PB Blaster, MAPP gas and a rubber mallet, I managed to get the exhaust all apart.



It's in pretty rough shape. The chrome is rusted right through on a lot of spots. The good side is that there is no serious cancer rust on them, so they're still pretty solid and relatively dent free. I'm thinking of getting them blasted and ceramic coated (I've seen a titanium coloured ceramic coating that looks pretty hot...).



I'm not sure what this exhaust actually is. Research seems to indicate it's a Jardine, but I don't really have anything to confirm this. The hanger brackets have LP260 stamped onto one and JP260 stamped onto the other.

The baffle in the 3-4 side exhaust was trash. The rear part of it had rusted off and was banging around in there. I ended up pulling the baffle from this one, accidentally put a little hole in the pipe where the baffle was apparently welded in. Oops! I'll probably drill this out round and use it as the bolt point for the new slip in baffle I'll be making for this. I'll probably knock the baffle out of the other pipe too and make a new one for it, to keep the two exhaust consistent.



Here's what was left of the baffle after I pulled it out... YUCK!

[Lavis500]

Nice!  I've always liked those 4-2 turnout exhausts, but I don't know who makes them, either.  I always wind up seeing them on basket cases with sellers who know nothing about the bikes...

I'm curious to see how you refresh the exhaust.  Will be a good note for me to file away and save for later...   

[fantino]

Haha, yeah, I'm hoping I'll be able to refresh and not just butcher these.

I found an auction on eBay for what appears to be the same pipe. No info about what they are, but I've never actually seen it fully mounted. I actually don't mind this pipe, it's a little more curvy, upswept and downward facing than most turnouts I've seen. It doesn't make me think billet barge when I look at it.

[fantino]

Spent some more time on the exhaust today. Getting these things blasted and coated at a shop is going to cost more than I can afford right now, so I decided to do things myself.

I took a flap disc on an angle grinder to half of the exhaust and took down all (or at least most) of the chrome plating. Good news is this worked really well at taking the chrome off. Bad news is I now have to contend with the finish left by the flap disc. I started sanding the pipes down with 80 grit sandpaper until the waviness and occasional gouge smoothed out. Only finished one header pipe and half the muffler today. Here's a pic, you can see the wavy finish on the turnout edge of the exhaust. Also the other exhaust for comparison...



When the other header is done, I will work my way up to 150 or 250 grit to smooth out the finish a bit more. Once I get it to where I want it, I'm going to try an application of this ceramic exhaust coating in titanium finish:

http://www.eastwood.com/tlc-titanium-ceramic-coating-4-oz.html

Needs to be baked at 500F for an hour, but luckily all the parts are small enough to fit in my oven, so I can do this at home.

[fantino]

The FAQ lists the gear ratio of 650 and 750 tachometers as being the same at 4:1. Does this mean I can use a 750 tach with my 650 cam and drive gear? If so, that would be amazing, because I would much rather find a complete set of early-mid 70s 750 gauges to go with my bike than 650 gauges (they're just not as nice...).

I stripped and repainted my rims again. Don't want to spend the money on powder. I figured out what I did wrong last time. Pretty sure I mismatched paints, used WAY too much paint, and didn't heat cure the engine paint I was using (since it had a much lower temp primer underneath).

Anyways, decided to change the color to graphite instead of red. I think I'll keep my red to accents like the caliper, wires, plumbing, etc. Laid down two coats of self etching primer and two coats of graphite grey wheel paint. The finish isn't as nice to the touch or "candy" as I got with the last paint job, but it looks nice and I can already tell it's going to be significantly more durable. Gonna try and lace up the wheels early next week. I'll post some pics when they're together.

Somewhat off topic note, I got a new workshop computer. Found an iMac G4 next to a dumpster on the side of the road. Bought a new power cable off FleaBay, plugged it in, and it works PERFECTLY. I'm amazed someone would throw away such a rad item. I'm going to hook it up to my stereo and the internet so I can listen to music and look things up while I'm in the workshop.



Gotta love side of the road finds!