Topic: CB550 Cafe build - 1st bike build, but not 1st build

[Syscrush]

So how do it do?  I took 2nd place for my display (& $50 ), even beat out the Best in Show winner, amazing.  Also got a Top 20 award.

Is Best in Show a people's choice thing?

Which bike won your class?

Did you beat that murdered-out bagger?

[Tintop]

So how do it do?  I took 2nd place for my display (& $50 ), even beat out the Best in Show winner, amazing.  Also got a Top 20 award.

Is Best in Show a people's choice thing?

Which bike won your class?

Did you beat that murdered-out bagger?

The bikes were judged by professional judges.  The head judge will be in Quebec City this coming weekend for the show there.  At that show the classes are divided up like the GNRS.  I had originally planned on going there, not to the SuperShow, should have.   There I would have been in the sport bike class, and should have done well.  At this show they did not divide the 'Builders Class', so I was competing against the 100K radical customs, and yes those baggers.  They had more in their paint than I have in the whole bike!  The black bagger was only Top 20, the white one got a Top 10 nod.  Keep in mind that Top 20 is not just the builders class, but of all the bikes judged at the show.  Had I entered it in Level 2, Asian Sport bike I probably could have won that class.

The judge also took the time to review my bike with me, and point out were I got top points, and were I got average, and/or lost points.  I spoke with the judge about the non classes, and he said that he had already spoken with the organizers, and changes are planned for next year.  The problem seems to be that there are 3 levels.  Display only, level 2 with a very broad selection of classes, and the Builder's class.  Level 2 is for awards only, and no special awards (display, paint, engineering...), or prize money.  The builder's class gets the prize money, and the special awards, but it is not divided up as to type.  Next year it sounds like they will have - chopper/bobber, bagger, and other, with the top from each class competing for Best in Show based on their class winning points.  The judge said that he would have no problem with a sport bike winning, as long as it met the standards required.

In actual fact my 'runner up' in display was actually a win.  My display was 'nonelectric', while the winning display used electrics (lights, turntable), so I actually won 'Best Nonelectric Display'.  This is how they were judged in CA.  This is also suppose to change for next year.  Not sure I will have anything to show though.

[bwaller]

Well Brian, if you can't beat em join em. Mount some big ole bags and a trunk on that bike of yours and see where it leads.







Or not.

[Tintop]

If I was going to do a bagger, I think a twin turbo CBX would be a good candidate.

Kind of like - I'll see your 2 push rod cylinders & turbo, and raise you 4 DOHC cylinders, and another turbo.

[joeyputt]

If I was going to do a bagger, I think a twin turbo CBX would be a good candidate.

Kind of like - I'll see your 2 push rod cylinders & turbo, and raise you 4 DOHC cylinders, and another turbo.

That would be awesome! Hahahaha!

Brother you mentioned earlier about discussing points with one of the judges, I have never entered a bike show so I do not know anything about the points system but I have always been curious as to how they judge a motorcycle. Please educate me!

[Tintop]

The points system is basically the same as for custom cars.  You are scored on a 1 to 10 rating.  You start at 5, and then you gain or lose points based on fit, finish, and modification.  The front and back ends of my bike score very well.  They like the mods, and consistency of colour.  The non stock rims scored well, but they must be spotless.  I did however lose points for the black fender, they would prefer it be body colour, that consistency thing.  Hidden wiring is also big, along with consistency in the covering used.  Running the brake and clutch lines inside the bars is also big, as it adds to the clean look.  I got extra points for using colour on my engine, and having textures (wrinkle rocker cover, anodized tappet covers).  You don't have to chrome everything in sight.  There was an all black bagger that looked great.  However it lost points because there was orange peel, and the gloss black was not the same everywhere (powder & paint were different shades).  The standard black Allen's were clear coated; however it would have scored better with polished Allen's, as this would have added contrast.  If you use Allen's then you have to use them everywhere, no mixing with Hex.  My frame scored average because while modified, the welds were not smoothed out, and visible.  Then there is paint.  Again at this level they want the surface perfectly smooth.  On my tank you can feel very slight edges at the colour borders.  It would need to be sanded and cleared a lot more to get there.  I also lost points for my controls, again a lack of consistency in colour, and the exposed wiring (tie wraps are a no no).  Also there are little things that can make a difference.  The exposed battery is OK, but would score better if it was painted to match the bike.

To get this bike up to the level of the radical custom choppers would require stripping the bike to the frame, and starting again.   Not an impossible task, but not something I plan on doing.  In my conversation with the judge he assured me that a sport bike could win, as each bike is scored individually, and it is your points total that matters, not what style bike it is.

The judge offers a course ($150) for people who would like to get into judging.  He said that a number of people have taken it so they know what criteria to build too.  I will probably do this for the next one.  Time a SOHC took Best in Show.

[scroggins5000]

Cool, that's good information to know. I always wondered what they scored on at shows. Thanks for sharing.

[Syscrush]

It does speak a bit to the arbitrariness of the criteria.  Most of it makes a lot of sense, but some of the rules seem odd.

I mean, that 100% murdered-out bagger HAD to have black bolts - to make contrast itself a requirement is silly IMO.  Similarly the value on hidden wiring & control lines - this is an aesthetic choice - an Indian Larry bike would always lose points for that in part because he wanted his bikes to look like machines.

I would think that things that objectively measure the quality of the execution make perfect sense, but aesthetic/design choices should be judged subjectively on the success of the overall effect.

[joeyputt]

Brother Tintop it is time a SOHC took best in show, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that for us. Like I said earlier I have never entered a show, I have always built my bikes for the enjoyment of building them and riding them but now that I am getting a little older I think entering a show would be fun but I had no idea what judges are looking for but it sounds like they look for the same things that I would in a bike however I do fully agree with Brother Syscrush.

Congratulations again on your awards, you did very well and I am sure that it makes you proud and we are happy for you as well!

[Tintop]

It does speak a bit to the arbitrariness of the criteria.  Most of it makes a lot of sense, but some of the rules seem odd.

I mean, that 100% murdered-out bagger HAD to have black bolts - to make contrast itself a requirement is silly IMO.  Similarly the value on hidden wiring & control lines - this is an aesthetic choice - an Indian Larry bike would always lose points for that in part because he wanted his bikes to look like machines.

I would think that things that objectively measure the quality of the execution make perfect sense, but aesthetic/design choices should be judged subjectively on the success of the overall effect.

The judges point was in reference to the bolts in the right side cover (the most visible ones).  As I said they were standard black bolts cleared, the cover was powder, and the engine painted.  None of the blacks was the same, even I saw this.  The bolts stood out, when clearly the intention was that they should not.  That's why the comment that it would score better with polished bolts there.  At that level it is all about execution, nothing subjective about it.  Either you get it right or you don't.  If you look closely at my bike all the exhaust pipe claps are on exactly the same angle, and the nuts on the Allen's clocked the same.  One of the reasons there is a mirror under it.   I want the judge to look.

All judges work from a set of rules / standards.  Doesn't matter if it showing horses, dogs, cars, or bikes (I've done them all).  What you consider 'subjective', is where each judge's personal interpretation enters the mix.  Oh then there is the politics of showing, but that's a chapter unto its self.

As for the wire issue.  The point is if exposed, then all the coverings should match.  The internal controls thing comes back to keeping things clean.  If you can hide the brake, clutch, throttle cables, then they are not hanging out in the air affecting the overall picture.  If you can't, or don't want to, then they have to become a part of the picture, not just a bunch of cables.

Brother Tintop it is time a SOHC took best in show, I really appreciate you taking the time to write that for us. Like I said earlier I have never entered a show, I have always built my bikes for the enjoyment of building them and riding them but now that I am getting a little older I think entering a show would be fun but I had no idea what judges are looking for but it sounds like they look for the same things that I would in a bike however I do fully agree with Brother Syscrush.

Congratulations again on your awards, you did very well and I am sure that it makes you proud and we are happy for you as well!

Thanks for the congrats joeyputt.  The showing part can be fun, but knowing what individual judges are looking for really helps.  With the Dane I only went to shows where I knew the judge liked my colour and type of dog.  If I do another bike for show, I would definitely look to show under this judge again.  He doesn't care what type of bike, and would put a sport bike on top if it met the standard he's looking for.

[Flying J]

How much is a slotted sprocket? Are the rockers reasonable? I was thinking of just sending the best 8 that i have to cycle x and have them coated.

[Tintop]

How much is a slotted sprocket? Are the rockers reasonable? I was thinking of just sending the best 8 that i have to cycle x and have them coated.

The slotted sprocket work was done by Mike, he is also supplying the hardened rockers.  I sent him a sprocket, and will be sending a set of rockers as cores.  Sprocket was $25 + ship, rockers (x8) $486 shipped.

Not exactly inexpensive, but everyone said use either new OEM, or hard weld rockers, or expect premature cam wear.  Given the cost of the cam I decided to bit the bullet.  So the cam upgrade looks like it will be just under $1K, to do it right.

[Flying J]

DOnt you hate that. "Put in a hot cam its only a few hundred and it will really wake up your motor"........"oh yeah but you also need to replace all the rockers"

[Tintop]

DOnt you hate that. "Put in a hot cam its only a few hundred and it will really wake up your motor"........"oh yeah but you also need to replace all the rockers"

No kidding.   Also this is the cheap solution , as I'm not doing head work, trick valves ect.

I think if I had known what the actual total cost would be (more research next time ), I would have passed.  Spoke to my dyno guy today.  Seems things did not go smoothly in his wet race on the Saturday, had an off.  Broken collar bone, so he's off work.  I'm 7th on the dyno list, so instead of next week looks like it will be 2/3 before he can get me in.    To make things worse, I found a source for jets in the USA, 40 mains (10 sets) @ $48. .  However we now have a postal strike up here.

[Syscrush]

However we now have a postal strike up here.

They got legislated back to work today.

[Tintop]

However we now have a postal strike up here.

They got legislated back to work today.

Great!  Off to order that jet kit.

[Tintop]

Ended up having to order jets from 2 sources.  However before next weekend I will have jets for tuning.  As I have some other projects  , decided to get a few extras - ordered Keihin main jet sets in 110/112/115/118/120/125.  The 120/125's are for the K3 with a filter kit & 4-1.  I have 110 stocks, but their cr#p, but also have some nice 130's.  Also need to order some Suzuki needle shims, just in case a 1/2 notch needle move is needed.  Just need to find that piece of paper with the P/N.

Before anyone asks, I'm planning on starting with the 115's, mainly because of the unbaffeled pipes.  The 112's & 118's give me the option to go leaner, or richer when I dyno it.   I'll have to practice my jet changing routine, so I can minimize the dyno time.   One nice thing about having the open 4-4's is we'll be able to get A/F's for each cylinder.

[Syscrush]

I think you mean A/F ratios.  A/R is a turbo parameter.

Never thought about tuning each cylinder separately, though.  Have fun!

[Tintop]

thanks yes  A/F, correction made.  I've got to proof read these better before I hit post.

[Syscrush]

thanks yes  A/F, correction made.  I've got to proof read these better before I hit post.

Nah, you just gotta say "I meant A/R" and then put a turbo on your bike.

[Raef]

for what its worth...
 my daily rider is a 75, 550 f with some head work, hondaman box, stock 4 into 1 with aftermarket muffler, stock air box with out the top and a very low restriction homemade foam filter.

the carbs have been cleaned up on the inside (knocking down raw edges and such) I have 118 mains 38 idols and the clip is in the top notch.

I would love to get it on a dyno to really see how close I am but the local shop only does Harleys.

The bike has 12,000 miles on it and runs great in its current trim I get about 37 MPG (actual mileage Not according to the odometer)

good luck I'll be waiting for the results

Mark

[Tintop]

Thanks for that information Mark.

Given you are running 118's, my starting point of 115 looks good.  I'm a little richer at the bottom with #40 slow jets, and I have the needle lifted 1 notch from stock.  Looks like I will at least be close to start with.

[Raef]

now that I think about it they may have 40 in them, I have build several set since, hell, I can't remember, the bike is a touch rich at idol has very nice midrange for what it is and leans a bit around 8500-9,000.

my 118 are hand drilled and beveled

the last interaction I had with "too tired" revolved around the ineffectiveness of drilled jets and what the 38's and 40's actually came in from the factory, at any rate he was convinced the bike could not and would not run as it should.

I'm happy with it, less the clutch rattle

Mark

[Tintop]

Took a look at your build raef, very interesting.

I decided to only used Keihin jets, and tubes, and avoid the aftermarket stuff.  I have made some mods to the emulsion tubes, but I won't know how well they really work until I dyno it.  The initial tuning & the 'butt dyno' point to them working.

[Raef]

Ha ha interesting indeed. Well deferent is were I was going, so I guess I am on track.

It started out as "restart project cafe" under the user name "masonryman" I lost interest, cut it up to make hammered, I will finish it this time, I plan on riding it this summer.

Done hijacking now

Mark