Topic: Honest Harley Davidson Commercial

[Gordon]

Maybe not mate, but if Harleys are so crap, why do all the Jap bike builders try so hard to copy them?

Talked about flawed logic. They build Harley replicas because there's a market for them, and we've made it pretty clear who that market consists of.

+1

Not Harley-bashing here, because I'm a fan of anything with an engine on two wheels (for the most part), but if you're saying something is good quality because the American public buys a lot of it, then you're already way off base.  We're slaves to good marketing, and that's what Harley does best.  They build motorcycles, but they're really just a successful marketing company. 

The Japanese motorcycle companies that are building copies are just being smarter and using the free marketing to sell their own products.   

[Terry in Australia]

Maybe not mate, but if Harleys are so crap, why do all the Jap bike builders try so hard to copy them?

Talked about flawed logic. They build Harley replicas because there's a market for them, and we've made it pretty clear who that market consists of.

+1

Not Harley-bashing here, because I'm a fan of anything with an engine on two wheels (for the most part), but if you're saying something is good quality because the American public buys a lot of it, then you're already way off base.  We're slaves to good marketing, and that's what Harley does best.  They build motorcycles, but they're really just a successful marketing company. 

The Japanese motorcycle companies that are building copies are just being smarter and using the free marketing to sell their own products.   

I can't see how you agreeing with me is "flawed logic". You both agree with me that the Jap bike manufacturers are blatantly copying Harley Davidson's "style", and you can't argue that my comment regarding the miserable resale value of Jap Cruisers is true, (many bike shops here in Oz will not take Jap Cruisers as trade-ins on new bikes, even if it means losing a sale) so where's the flaw?

Laminar's comment about who the Jap Cruiser bike makers market is, once again confirms my comment, an old Harley rider wouldn't be seen dead riding a Japanese imitation, so the market is squared specifically at someone trying to emulate the "image", (his idea of what "the image" is, right or wrong) without ponying up the dough for a real Harley.

I've no doubt that most "Yama-Harley's" (etc) are well built, but why would anyone buy one, if they knew beforehand that when they come to the realisation that they'd rather buy a different bike, (any bike) their shiny 6 month old Jap Cruiser will be about as welcome as a trade-in at their local bike shop as a pork sausage in a synagogue? I'm bored (obviously) so I eagerly await your rebuttal..........

[Gordon]

There's nothing to rebut as far as I'm concerned.  I like Harleys, I like all kinds of bikes, it doesn't matter who makes them.  But that doesn't mean that I agree with the monetary value placed on Harleys by the motorcycle-buying public.  It's good marketing riding on the coattails of the "bad-boy" image that the outlaw motorcycle gangs started, and was popularized by Peter Fonda and Dennis Hopper. 

H-D didn't see it themselves at first, but they're either marketing geniuses or just really lucked into it, and for that I commend them, and I'd be very happy to be in their shoes right now.

You seem to be placing more emphasis on the monetary value of a motorcycle rather than the quality of it, which is great if what you're in it for is the money.  I don't buy motorcycle based on what I think I'll be able to sell them for later on, because I buy them to work on them and ride them.  If I were in the market for a motorcycle that would hold its value or appreciate, I'd definitely be looking at a Harley, or a Sandcast, or some old British Iron.

I buy, ride, work on, and enjoy old Japanese bikes because they're inexpensive, reliable, easy to work on and have readily available parts.  I can afford to buy a brand new Harley, but I choose not to in favor of other things like saving for my retirement, my childrens' education, paying off my house, etc.  If someone has enough money to do those things and still afford a Harley, or prioritizes their life differently, or has fewer priorities, then it's no business of mine, but it doesn't mean that I have to value their purchases the same way that I do mine.     

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks for that Gordy, I agree with most of your sentiments, and as you probably know, I don't own a Harley either. Considering that HD has been around for 107 years now, I don't think that the "Bad Boy" image is the only reason that they are still in business, but I concede that "image" is an excellent marketing tool.

If it wasn't, there wouldn't be any plastic "race replica" sportsbikes out there, (and no CB750 "Cafe Racers" for that matter either) so it would be a pretty boring world if all we could buy were "sensible" commuter bikes and motor scooters. I certainly don't buy bikes based on what I can get back for them, the truth is, most of the bike's I've ever owned, (30+, including maybe 20 CB750's) I've sold at a loss. So be it, it was fun putting an old basket case or a crashed wreck back on the road.

But apart from the fact that I really don't like pretend Harleys, I know that they have just about the worst resale value of any bike I can think of. This doesn't mean that I buy my bikes based on their resale value, it just adds to the long list of reasons why I'd never buy one. Cheers, Terry.

[traveler]

The quality and fit and finish on my '05 Harley is VERY nice.  No plastic chrome bits....it's all steel.  Some of the Japanese cruisers, in an effort to curb costs, use alot of plastic bits, and cheaply done cast parts.  I like all bikes, but the cost savings isn't enough for me personally to live with plastic fenders, etc.

My Superglide is fantastic at what it was built to do....cruise.  It is a torque monster.

The CB1100 would be great, but the USA has been deemed a dead market for this, so it's either build an old CB up, ride a V-twin, or a sport bike it seems.

~Joe

[Laminar]

I can't see how you agreeing with me is "flawed logic". You both agree with me that the Jap bike manufacturers are blatantly copying Harley Davidson's "style",

Yep.

and you can't argue that my comment regarding the miserable resale value of Jap Cruisers is true, (many bike shops here in Oz will not take Jap Cruisers as trade-ins on new bikes, even if it means losing a sale)

Yep.

so where's the flaw?

The flaw lies in the implication that replication somehow indicates quality or performance or something, from this statement:

but if Harleys are so crap, why do all the Jap bike builders try so hard to copy them?

Thanks for that Gordy, I agree with most of your sentiments, and as you probably know, I don't own a Harley either. Considering that HD has been around for 107 years now, I don't think that the "Bad Boy" image is the only reason that they are still in business, but I concede that "image" is an excellent marketing tool.

Sure, up until the 60s they were cutting edge, innovating and producing some great bikes. But at the advent of the CB750 and with the rise of the big four, they couldn't compete (see the 700cc tariff Harley lobbied for in 1983), and they kind of hit and plateau and leveled off as far as innovation, style, and engineering. Since then, they've survived on the bad boy biker gang image and the "AMERICA....**** YEAH" mentality.

[Terry in Australia]

Good to see that you're agreeing with me Lammy, and to be honest, I don't care why Harley is still in business, I'm just glad that they are. Too many motorcycle manufacturers went under as a result of the "Japanese Invasion" in the early 1970's, and while that was fair enough, (the Jap bikes were far superior technically) it's still a shame, as it reduced the choices that we motorcyclists have open to us. (possibly another reason that Harley did so well, picking up business from bikers who wouldn't be seen dead on a "rice burner")

Happily for me, Triumph was reborn in the early 1990's and are doing quite well for a small manufacturer, competing against the huge resources available to their Japanese competitors. Same goes for Ducati, who make a fine bike, but have struggled to continue, knowing that whatever they build this season will be blatantly copied by the Jap manufacturers next season, who are still largely imitators, not innovators.

Bimota went bust because buyers couldn't see much point in buying bikes that were already powered by Jap engines, and didn't handle or stop any better than the bikes the engines came out of. Once again, the Jap manufacturers just "reverse-engineered" a Bimota SB6 and used that information for the GSXR1000. Morally pretty weak, but the Jap manufacturers have never been big on morals.

While the "America, Fcuk Yeah" mentality is certainly a factor, Harley could probably survive without American sales, such is their popularity worldwide. Over here in Oz, where a lot of bikers are sick of the Japanese "Sportsbike, Land Barge or Harley Wannabe" choices, are enjoying the wide network of Harley dealerships offering an excellent parts and accessory support network for Harley owners, in many cases, spare parts for a Harley Fatboy are easier to find (and cheaper to buy) than parts for a Suzuki Hayabusa.

At the same time, entry level Harleys (Sportsters) are competetively priced, so prospective Harley owners don't need to shell out a lot of money to experience the marque, and if they decide to progress to a bigger Harley, trade in values are such that they won't lose out anywhere as much as a dissafected Jap cruiser owner would. Smart marketing? Definitely, if the Jap manufacturers displayed the same sort of respect for their buyers as Harley does, instead of their "thanks for the money, now p1ss off" attitude, they'd instill a lot more "brand loyalty" in their customers. Cheers, Terry.    

[Damfino]

The only Harleys worth a #$%* were the AMF's of the 60's and 70's!!!!

There, that ought to keep the ball rollin'...

[Terry in Australia]

The only Harleys worth a #$%* were the AMF's of the 60's and 70's!!!!

There, that ought to keep the ball rollin'...

Well of course, the AMF Harley's were roundly criticised for their poor build quality, but a mate of mine had a 1979 XLH Sportster, and it was a great bike, he liked it so much he bought an imported ex-Milwaulkie Police Department Electra Glide, I rode both bikes a few times and I thought they were great, particularly the 'Glide, on a long ride you could ride along drinking a coke or smoking a cigarette behind that big barn door fairing, it even had a cigarette lighter mounted in the fairing, just for that purpose. Great bikes!  

[Laminar]

Good to see that you're agreeing with me Lammy,

That just means that you're finally right.

Same goes for Ducati, who make a fine bike, but have struggled to continue, knowing that whatever they build this season will be blatantly copied by the Jap manufacturers next season, who are still largely imitators, not innovators.

Really? What kinds of things have been copied from Ducati?

While the "America, Fcuk Yeah" mentality is certainly a factor, Harley could probably survive without American sales, such is their popularity worldwide.

You sure about that? They needed another government bailout (and they killed off Buell) just to stay in business for the past couple of years. International sales only account for 32% of their revenue.

[Terry in Australia]

Good to see that you're agreeing with me Lammy,

That just means that you're finally right. ,

Well actually, it just means that you've finally agreed with what I've been saying all along.  

Same goes for Ducati, who make a fine bike, but have struggled to continue, knowing that whatever they build this season will be blatantly copied by the Jap manufacturers next season, who are still largely imitators, not innovators.

Really? What kinds of things have been copied from Ducati?

The three spoke 17inch wheels that the Japs used from the late 1980's were copied from Ducati's 851, then there was upside down forks, 4 piston calipers, radial master cylinders, similar bodywork, seat units, alloy rear set footpegs, and of course, when Ducati dominated WSBK racing, both Honda and Suzuki blatantly copied Ducati's race winning DOHC V twin engines in the Honda RC51 and Suzuki's ill fated TL1000R. Yamaha blatantly copied the famous Ducati "trellis" frame, in their TRX850. Yamaha even phased the 850's crank at 270 degrees, to make it sound more like a V twin. There's more of course, but I think this answers your question.

While the "America, Fcuk Yeah" mentality is certainly a factor, Harley could probably survive without American sales, such is their popularity worldwide.

You sure about that? They needed another government bailout (and they killed off Buell) just to stay in business for the past couple of years. International sales only account for 32% of their revenue.

When American business was devastated by the recession, hundreds (probably thousands) of US businesses were bailed out, so that comment, considering the financial environment, was weak, even for you. Obviously, motorcycles, particularly high end brands like Harley are considered "luxury" items for most people, so if you've just lost your job and you can't pay your mortgage, you won't be in a hurry to get down to your local Harley dealer and buy a new bike, eh?

I always wondered why Harley invested in Buell, while an old pushrod V twin in a sports bike frame is "interesting", it could never hope to compete with the other great sporting V twins, such as Ducati and Aprilia's RSV etc. While the last Buell, the 1125 R looked like a good thing with a whole new engine and a complete redesign, it was probably a case of "too little, too late".  

As far as how well Harley would survive without US sales, (something that would never happen, in reality, Harley Davidson is one of America's best known brands) the 32% of sales that Harley enjoys off-shore, probably equates to Harley's domestic sales of 20 or 30 years ago, so if the company downsized appropriately, or moved off-shore, or most likely both, they would be able to survive, as those 32% of current overall sales, still meets or exceeds the sales of other companies world wide, such as BMW Triumph and Ducati, who all seem to be surviving? Cheers, Terry.  

[hondaface75]

didnt a buell win sbk last year?

[Retro Rocket]

The three spoke 17inch wheels that the Japs used from the late 1980's were copied from Ducati's 851, then there was upside down forks, 4 piston calipers, radial master cylinders, similar bodywork, seat units, alloy rear set footpegs, and of course, when Ducati dominated WSBK racing, both Honda and Suzuki blatantly copied Ducati's race winning DOHC V twin engines in the Honda RC51 and Suzuki's ill fated TL1000R. Yamaha blatantly copied the famous Ducati "trellis" frame, in their TDM850. Yamaha even phased the 850's crank at 270 degrees, to make it sound more like a V twin. There's more of course, but I think this answers your question.

Not trying to stir the pot here but Astralite and Marvic were producing 17's before Ducati, and Ohlins and Marzocchi were making upside down forks completely independent from any manufacturer. Its mostly evolution of the species, the Japanese are masters of the copy but don't doubt their ability to develop technology by themselves....Their copies are generally better than the original in most cases and generally helps bring prices down

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

The three spoke 17inch wheels that the Japs used from the late 1980's were copied from Ducati's 851, then there was upside down forks, 4 piston calipers, radial master cylinders, similar bodywork, seat units, alloy rear set footpegs, and of course, when Ducati dominated WSBK racing, both Honda and Suzuki blatantly copied Ducati's race winning DOHC V twin engines in the Honda RC51 and Suzuki's ill fated TL1000R. Yamaha blatantly copied the famous Ducati "trellis" frame, in their TDM850. Yamaha even phased the 850's crank at 270 degrees, to make it sound more like a V twin. There's more of course, but I think this answers your question.

Not trying to stir the pot here but Astralite and Marvic were producing 17's before Ducati, and Ohlins and Marzocchi were making upside down forks completely independent from any manufacturer. Its mostly evolution of the species, the Japanese are masters of the copy but don't doubt their ability to develop technology by themselves....Their copies are generally better than the original in most cases and generally helps bring prices down

Mick

Thanks Mick, and you're right of course, in fact, Ducati didn't make any of those components, (just like Honda don't make their own wheels, forks, chains, carbs, ignitions, suspension components etc) but two of the suppliers you mentioned (Marvic and Marzocchi) were OEM suppliers to Ducati at the time, I have a feeling that Ducati designed the wheels and Marvic made them, but I don't know for certain, and I can't think of any production motorcycle that had those items fitted to it before Ducati, can you? Cheers, Terry.

[Retro Rocket]

The three spoke 17inch wheels that the Japs used from the late 1980's were copied from Ducati's 851, then there was upside down forks, 4 piston calipers, radial master cylinders, similar bodywork, seat units, alloy rear set footpegs, and of course, when Ducati dominated WSBK racing, both Honda and Suzuki blatantly copied Ducati's race winning DOHC V twin engines in the Honda RC51 and Suzuki's ill fated TL1000R. Yamaha blatantly copied the famous Ducati "trellis" frame, in their TDM850. Yamaha even phased the 850's crank at 270 degrees, to make it sound more like a V twin. There's more of course, but I think this answers your question.

Not trying to stir the pot here but Astralite and Marvic were producing 17's before Ducati, and Ohlins and Marzocchi were making upside down forks completely independent from any manufacturer. Its mostly evolution of the species, the Japanese are masters of the copy but don't doubt their ability to develop technology by themselves....Their copies are generally better than the original in most cases and generally helps bring prices down

Mick

Thanks Mick, and you're right of course, in fact, Ducati didn't make any of those components, (just like Honda don't make their own wheels, forks, chains, carbs, ignitions, suspension components etc) but two of the suppliers you mentioned (Marvic and Marzocchi) were OEM suppliers to Ducati at the time, I have a feeling that Ducati designed the wheels and Marvic made them, but I don't know for certain, and I can't think of any production motorcycle that had those items fitted to it before Ducati, can you? Cheers, Terry.

Hi mate, i knew Marzocchi made the suspension parts but didn't Marchesini make Ducati's wheels, i should know because i road the very first 851 tricolour that came into the country and it had 3 spoke wheels on it...Although they were 16 inch, which ironically they copied from the Japanese....

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

Hi mate, i knew Marzocchi made the suspension parts but didn't Marchesini make Ducati's wheels, i should know because i road the very first 851 tricolour that came into the country and it had 3 spoke wheels on it...Although they were 16 inch, which ironically they copied from the Japanese....

Mick

G'Day Mick, I'm pretty sure Marvic made the 3 spoke 17 inch wheels for the first Ducati's, but it might have been the 888, not the 851, as I get older I tend to lose the plot. The first 16 inch wheels on a production bike, to my knowledge, were on a Bimota SB4 in 1983, which Jap bikes ran 16's before then mate? 

[Laminar]

When American business was devastated by the recession, hundreds (probably thousands) of US businesses were bailed out, so that comment, considering the financial environment, was weak, even for you.

Ooo burn.

Were other motorcycle manufacturers helped in the same way?

I always wondered why Harley invested in Buell, while an old pushrod V twin in a sports bike frame is "interesting", it could never hope to compete with the other great sporting V twins, such as Ducati and Aprilia's RSV etc.

Yes, let's combine the most poorly designed engine with the least comfortable riding position. Profit!!1!1

Also, I enjoyed this quote from the website I posted previously:

Despite this rebellious image, the average Harley customer is an upper-class 47-year-old white male, and has been getting older at a rate of 6 months every year for the last 20 years.

[Retro Rocket]

Hi mate, i knew Marzocchi made the suspension parts but didn't Marchesini make Ducati's wheels, i should know because i road the very first 851 tricolour that came into the country and it had 3 spoke wheels on it...Although they were 16 inch, which ironically they copied from the Japanese....

Mick

G'Day Mick, I'm pretty sure Marvic made the 3 spoke 17 inch wheels for the first Ducati's, but it might have been the 888, not the 851, as I get older I tend to lose the plot. The first 16 inch wheels on a production bike, to my knowledge, were on a Bimota SB4 in 1983, which Jap bikes ran 16's before then mate?  

In 1977 Honda used 16 inch wheels to reduce weight on the NR500, i thought about Bimota but when looking into the NR bikes in the 80's i first saw 16 inch wheels....
Not to sure about production bikes but Honda was definitely before Bimota
Also in 1983 Honda had 16 inch front wheels on the VF750 before the Bimota was released.

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

Thanks Mick, I did a search on the VF750 but the earliest one I could find was 1984. Of course, "specialty bikes" like the NR500 (not a mainstream production bike) might have experimented with 16 inch wheels before Bimota, but we shouldn't forget that Harley Davidson has been running 16 inch wheels on their production bikes for the last 50 years or so? Not that it's much of an advertisement for "high tech", as most of the Jap bikes fitted with 16 inch front wheels were a disaster, anyway. Cheers, Terry.

[Retro Rocket]

most of the Jap bikes fitted with 16 inch front wheels were a disaster, anyway. Cheers, Terry. Grin

Your right there but one exception was the GPX-750 Kawasaki, i have owned 2 of these great all round and pretty fast bikes including one that was a very quick race bike that i put on the road, it was raced heavily by Greg Avery and built by { funnily enough} a HRC mechanic on loan from Honda, man it was quick, faster than my 1100 GSXR, but i digress. Harley actually had 16 inch wheels as far back as 1906...

VF-750 F from 1983

http://www.bikez.com/motorcycles/honda_vf_750_f_1983.php

Mick

[Terry in Australia]

Yeah, you're probably right Mick, Kawasaki did some things very well in the 1980's, the 750 turbo was a bike that should have been allowed to evolve, but was killed off when the Jap manufacturers decided that the turbo "fashion" was out of date.

It may well have been that the GPX750 was actually designed around a 16 inch front wheel, when the other Jap bikes appeared to have one shoved on as an afterthought. I just remembered, my 1962 Honda 305 dream had 16 inch wheels!

[Retro Rocket]

I just remembered, my 1962 Honda 305 dream had 16 inch wheels! Grin

Haha.....Harley is still the winner.....did i just say that....

Mick

[Industrial Cafe]

why won't this thread die?

[Ecosse]

why won't this thread die?

as the one who started this Humor fruitless debate post monstrosity i've wondered the same thing.

 

[tierinmir]

lol at this thread still going on

I went and looked at one of the forty eights last weekend and actually liked it. Despite many of the things I do not like about the stigma of owning a HD, I would consider buying one of these bikes.