Author Topic: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?  (Read 3246 times)

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Offline 75cb550 (kyle)

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Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« on: June 10, 2010, 09:03:23 AM »
i have put about 700 miles on my new plug wires and new D7EA plugs with just normal caps... is this supposed to be causing a running issue?
i have had no problems, so far.
im using two of these kits
http://www.lowbrowcustoms.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=344
the coil ends you see are what i am using on plugs with some big heat shrink and dielectric grease.
 just wondering if this sounds normal to anyone else... or maybe i'm losing something and just dont notice it... she runs smooth after about 3 min and fast as a striped $*% ape.


Offline bryanj

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2010, 09:19:38 AM »
You should use resistor caps to get the right spark voltage, also in most coutries it is a legal requirement so that you dont interfere with radio/TV signals
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Offline 75cb550 (kyle)

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2010, 09:33:54 AM »
mmkay... we'll have to pick a set up then... NGK makes some decent priced ones, yes?

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #3 on: June 10, 2010, 10:42:58 AM »
For the spark systems used on the stock bikes, resistance is recommended.
Not only does it reduce radio frequency interference.  The inline resistance reduces the spark current (Electrodes last longer), it also broadens the spark event, which lights off more of the A/F mixture at the beginning of the power stroke for a more complete burn.
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline 75cb550 (kyle)

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #4 on: June 10, 2010, 11:20:39 AM »
thanks Lloyd...
next question. where do you get them? are they pretty universal or do you have to look them up for a specific make/model? (noob question, i'm sure)

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #5 on: June 10, 2010, 04:02:17 PM »
I buy mine through my local MC shop.
But Z1 sells them:
http://www.z1enterprises.com/SearchResult.aspx?All=True&KeyWords=ngk
The stock Honda 550 used the XD05F and VD05F styles/shape.  Those listed are 5K resistance, whereas they were at one time available in the 10 K, too.  Perhaps with enough searching you could find the 10K versions.  But, I would only do so if I was also using the stock Honda CB550 coils.
See:
http://www.ngk-sparkplugs.jp/english/techinfo/resistor-wire/03/index.html

The caps are made to fit 7mm wire core ignition leads, and have rubber seals to keep water and other corrosives out.  I expect those will be ineffective on cloth covered wires, though.  So, you will have add a maintenance routine to dismantle and clean off any corrosion build up at the internal connections.

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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wdhewson

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #6 on: June 10, 2010, 06:32:43 PM »
Resistor caps puzzle me.  

A lot of TVs and even radios are hard wired with shielded cable these days, so that worry seems to be a bit dated.  Plus I think only once in my life have I had a radio "buzzed" by an ignition system.  And this was probably more than 50 years ago, and it was the AM radio right in the old car that was running.

But the real puzzle is that spark plug resistance is really infinite because of the air, or mixture, across the electrode gap.  So adding a few M-ohms or k-ohms to infinity doesn't change the total resistance much.  Even when the gap becomes conductive when the plug fires, the "resistance" of the actual spark is probably all over the map (meaning widely varying values).

Resistor caps are everywhere so they must be of some utility.  I'll make a guess that adding some resistance in the high voltage circuit allows the firing voltage to build without leaking off through conductive plug deposits and the like, thus promoting a strong spark.  Probably especially true in the leaded fuel days of decades ago, when combustion chamber deposits had some metallic conductive character.

Share some thoughts..................Don
« Last Edit: June 10, 2010, 06:37:22 PM by wdhewson »

wdhewson

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2010, 07:17:32 PM »
Try this link on for "size" regarding resistive HT circuits.

http://www.ultralightnews.com/enginetroublshooting/resistorcapsandplugs.htm

It sounds pretty good to me, but I don't know why the resistance makes firing a contaminated plug more difficult.

Don

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #8 on: June 11, 2010, 12:06:14 AM »
A lot of TVs and even radios are hard wired with shielded cable these days, so that worry seems to be a bit dated.  Plus I think only once in my life have I had a radio "buzzed" by an ignition system.  And this was probably more than 50 years ago, and it was the AM radio right in the old car that was running.
The point is that the ignition wires radiate energy when they conduct current.  All unshielded wires radiate when they are energized and carry current.  The rise or fall times of the pulse they carry determine the frequency component that is radiated.  Faster rise and fall times equate to higher frequencies.  When the frequency is in the domain of a receiver's tuned frequency, the receiver is unable to reject such interference.  If the receiver is designed to accept frequencies in the 35MHz band, for example, an impulse burst from ANY source with enough energy in it will be accepted and passed through to the receiver's output.  (Yes, sophisticated receiver designs can reject much of it, but it is far better to quell to spurious radiation at its source.)  You don't shield the receiver antenna, unless you wish to receive NO signal.  AM radio, FM radio, CB, aircraft bands, etc. anything that receives via an antenna is going to be susceptible to spurious radiated power.  Even digital signals can be effected with drop outs, where the digital signal received is corrupted or obliterated by in-band frequencies.

But the real puzzle is that spark plug resistance is really infinite because of the air, or mixture, across the electrode gap.  So adding a few M-ohms or k-ohms to infinity doesn't change the total resistance much.  Even when the gap becomes conductive when the plug fires, the "resistance" of the actual spark is probably all over the map (meaning widely varying values).

I have explained this in prior posts.  Two or three times, I think.  But, I don't feel like searching for it either.
The SOHC4 uses a Kettering style ignition.  It begins with closed points, which draws current through the coil and creates a large magnetic field.  When the points open, the magnetic field, created by the primary winding, colapses.  As the secondary windings are physically located in the same place as the primary, the collapsing lines of magnetic flux cross the secondary winding wire and induce a voltage in the secondary winding.  This voltage builds until the atmosphere between the spark plug electrodes ionizes and forms a plasma conduit that completes the electrical path in the secondary and allows current to flow.  The plasma remains conductive until the voltage level drops below the point where ionization can be sustained.
This plasma conduit in the gap has very low resistance, which allows the stored energy of the coil to dump very quickly, limited by the resistance of the coil windings and the transmission wires.  This makes the rise and fall times of the spark pulse very fast, so high impulse frequencies are radiated by the ignition wires over which these pulses are carried. Any unshielded wire can become a transmission line or radiating antenna.

Resistors don't reduce voltage until current is passed through them.  So, the voltage required to ionize the atmosphere in the spark gap is unaffected by inline resistance.  The voltage requirement is determined by the atmosphere type and distance between the electrodes.
However, once the plasma forms in the gap, the resistors limit the current and the rise time of the pulse (lowering the frequency component).  Since the energy is drained from the coil slower, the duration of the spark event becomes longer.  The ignition wires therefore radiate less power and of a lower frequency.  The spark plugs see lower current, and a longer duration spark event conducive to better power/ and power stroke efficiency.

Resistor caps are everywhere so they must be of some utility.  
Yes.  If you go outside the domain of the SOHC4, you encounter high energy ignition systems that are not based on the Kettering principle.  Many of these use much higher voltages to fire the plugs. (The purpose is to make the plugs fire much the same over a very long life).  The resistors found in these systems do much the same thing they do for the SOHC4.  But, they are even more essential in the High Energy systems.  One, they limit the current at the spark plug electrodes, which reduces the electrode erosion, increasing the plug life.
See also, EDM
http://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-edm.htm

Second point, modern vehicles generally have computers that operate on very low voltages.  Input voltage spikes can easily destroy input gates on these computers.  Limiting the radiated energy from the ignition wires reduces coupling onto vehicle sensor wires that feed the computer.  Shielded wires are safer for the computer, but cost more and are heavier, contributing to the mass weight of the vehicle.

I'll make a guess that adding some resistance in the high voltage circuit allows the firing voltage to build without leaking off through conductive plug deposits and the like, thus promoting a strong spark.  Probably especially true in the leaded fuel days of decades ago, when combustion chamber deposits had some metallic conductive character.

Sorry, I don't see how your guess has a solid electrical foundation.  Resistance only occurs when there is current flow.  Voltage is not impeded by resistance until current flows.  Further, the spark gap shouldn't have any Chamber deposits, if the engine is tuned correctly regardless of the fuel used.  In proper engine operation the spark plug (certainly the electrode portion) is self cleaning.

It sounds pretty good to me, but I don't know why the resistance makes firing a contaminated plug more difficult.
A contaminated plug has the center electrode insulator compromised with a lower resistance coating over which the energy can drain away, resulting in poor ionization in the spark gap, which delays or prevents forming a spark plasma channel.  Even if a plasma channel IS formed, it becomes a parallel path for electrical current, shared with the fouled insulator which would shorten the spark event duration.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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wdhewson

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #9 on: June 11, 2010, 06:12:48 PM »
Thanks for the elaboration.  Most of which I have found helpful.

But let's examine the the statement that "resistance only occurs when there is current flow".  Take an infinite resistance, or at least a very high resistance.  The resistance to electrical current flow certainly exists when there is no flow. Resistance is most certainly there as it is exactly the resistance that is blocking the flow.  Take the usual flow of water analogy to electrical flow.  A closed plumbing valve is infinite resistance to flow.  And when there is no flow of water, the valve still exists, if fact it must exist.  Similarly, a dam blocks the flow of water in a river.  The dam certainly exists even though the is no flow through it.  I think that there is a mechanical analogy too, in physics.  Work is force multiplied by the distance that things moved.  If nothing moves, the distance is zero and no work is done.  But the forces (equal and opposite) still exist.

Also, spark plugs are self cleaning to a point.  Carbon deposits are generally burned off if things are hot enough and lean enough.  But there are high melting non-combustible ashes that don't clean off.  And these ashes can be conductive and interfere with spark development.  I suppose many of us have been cleaning and re-using plugs, and electrode deposits are pretty self-evident.

But, perhaps you'll entertain another question.  The assertion that longer spark duration results in more power seems to go against "hot-rodder lore" where they want highly conductive low resistance high tension systems for quickly forming fat powerful (high wattage) sparks.  Maybe they need these powerful sparks to fire the plugs with highly compressed mixtures provided by the high compression ratios.  Thanks, Don
« Last Edit: June 11, 2010, 07:15:32 PM by wdhewson »

Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #10 on: June 11, 2010, 11:03:10 PM »
But let's examine the the statement that "resistance only occurs when there is current flow".  Take an infinite resistance, or at least a very high resistance.  
Infinite resistance is a special case which equates to no connectivity.  You can't distribute voltage potential without connectivity of some sort.
Voltage is just that, potential.  There is no work involved until there is current.  Watt's law is IxE =Power.

The resistance to electrical current flow certainly exists when there is no flow.
Interesting theory.  Now prove it.

Resistance is most certainly there as it is exactly the resistance that is blocking the flow.  
Actually, resistance is undefined until there is a voltage potential and a current flow.  You cannot measure resistance without current flow.  Why can't you accept ohm's law?  E/R = I. E/I = R. IxR = E.

Take ten random resistors in the values of your choice and wire them in series.  Now connect only one end of that resistor assembly to your battery POS terminal.  Take your voltmeter with the black probe on the NEG terminal and measure with red probe anywhere along the resistor chain.  Assuming your chosen ohmmeter has very very high internal resistance, no current will flow through the resistors and each and every connection point will read the same voltage potential as the POS battery post.  There is no voltage drop through any resistor that conducts zero current.

Also, spark plugs are self cleaning to a point.  Carbon deposits are generally burned off if things are hot enough and lean enough.
But there are high melting non-combustible ashes that don't clean off.  
Which is why we eventually have to replace the spark plugs.  But, you are talking end of life scenario, not nominal operation.  If you need an extreme corner case condition to prove your point, how does that help people understand how things normally work?

You could also say there is a statistical probability that all the oxygen molecules will suddenly move to the right side of the room.  You can actually prove that with mathematical formula.  But, I'm pretty comfortable with staying anywhere in the room without fear of suffocation.  There are theoretical extremes and practical realities.  Which are you lobbying toward?

And these ashes can be conductive and interfere with spark development.  
Unless the gap is bridged/shorted by these deposits, please describe how a conductive deposit upon a conductor interferes with spark development.  

I suppose many of us have been cleaning and re-using plugs, and electrode deposits are pretty self-evident.
Don't you mean electrode insulator deposits?  Coating an insulator with a conductive deposit most certainly interferes with spark as I have previously stated.

But, perhaps you'll entertain another question.  The assertion that longer spark duration results in more power seems to go against "hot-rodder lore" where they want highly conductive low resistance high tension systems for quickly forming fat powerful (high wattage) sparks.  Maybe they need these powerful sparks to fire the plugs with highly compressed mixtures provided by the high compression ratios.  Thanks, Don

"Lore" is not science and often is not even based in reality.  Lore is stating that when I wear my lucky hat, my team wins.  Hey, it's happened 10 times in a row, so it must be true!
Gear heads are infrequently electronic savvy.   They see a high output engine with a High energy ignition, and they assume that the ignition "made" some of that extra power.  Since it is easier to make spark changes than to change the engine mechanicals, the copycats create a lore that requires High energy ignition to make higher power.  It's simply BΩllsh!te.  But, if it sells more ignition systems, why not promote what is generally accepted by a cult following?

Higher cylinder pressures make forming the plasma channel in which the spark travels, more difficult without higher voltage potentials.
So, you are right about higher compression engines needing more spark voltage than a lower compression engine.  It's not the spark that makes the power, the spark just enables the engine make power.
Ever see an engine run on only spark power?  Ever?  There is not enough spark energy to make a piston move.  At least not any of our SOHC4s.

Anyway, Hot rodders play around with so many variables.  Compression, fuel type, atmosphere type (NOS). High RPM (short duration power stroke) highly advanced timing, chamber flow design, valve overlap, etc. etc.  I would really like to confine discussion to the SOHC4.  Or, the discussion will eventually evolve into why Johnny's bucket T was the fastest thing around cause he used moonshine (at least that's what grandpa said).  ;D

Cheers,




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline dave500

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2010, 12:55:19 AM »
man!with all due respect no wonder your two tired,err,everyone needs to take a short electrical/electronic course before any more posts on this stuff,umm,take five TWO.

wdhewson

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2010, 10:26:46 AM »
There is no doubt that indefatigability is to be admired.

At present I'm favoring a good powerful (high Wattage) spark to get the mixture ignited.  This throws in a lot of energy into the mixture a short time.  Just like a powerful baseball bat swing, a powerful golf, swing, or a powerful engine.  There seems to be little use of extending spark duration (less powerful) if the flame is already well lit.  Sticking with baseball, why slow down and extend the duration of the bat swing?  A slow bat won't hit a home run.

So I'll continue to delete resistor plugs and resistor caps in order to up the spark power.  The downside of emitting radio frequency will just have to be tolerated by listeners as I pass by.  Of course, my RF emissions may be playing havoc with Toyota's throttle by wire system causing their system to default to WOT, and hopefully not T-boning me!

Regarding the request for proofs from Tootired, words never provide a "proof", not even using a lot of words.  In fact, the use of a lot of words reveals struggle with the message.  Proofs don't really exist.  What does exist is agreement or acceptance by users of specific information, all bolstered by no known inconsistencies.  The usual example that often accompanies this explanation of "proof" is that there is no proof of the second law of thermodynamics.  But we accept this law, because nobody has yet seen otherwise.  Don




Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2010, 12:36:04 PM »
At present I'm favoring a good powerful (high Wattage) spark to get the mixture ignited.  This throws in a lot of energy into the mixture a short time.  ... 

Doesn't that assume the mixture is static in the chamber?  What if the mixture to be lit is moving while being ignited?  Wouldn't greater duration light off more of it?

There seems to be little use of extending spark duration (less powerful) if the flame is already well lit. 
Are you familiar with Capacitive Discharge ignitions such as MSD and their popularity?  The letters stand for multiple spark ignition, which is frequently found in CD ignition systems.  The multiple spark devices increase the spark event duration even farther than what the inline resistance does.  Are you arguing that these are ineffective?

So I'll continue to delete resistor plugs and resistor caps in order to up the spark power.  The downside of emitting radio frequency will just have to be tolerated by listeners as I pass by.  Of course, my RF emissions may be playing havoc with Toyota's throttle by wire system causing their system to default to WOT, and hopefully not T-boning me!
People do the wrong thing all the time, especially when the outcome is of detriment to others.  (It's why the system of laws keep expanding.)  But, you still have no science to support your proclamations.  In fact, if you really did up the "power" or efficiency to the cylinder, you would also increase the spark gap, which has far more effect than increasing the sudden short jolt you seem to favor.
I reiterate, deleting resistors does NOT up the power.  You cannot create or destroy energy, only convert it.  The resistors only change the distribution of the power sourced from the coils, and this improves the power and efficiency of many engines.

Regarding the request for proofs from Tootired, words never provide a "proof", not even using a lot of words.  In fact, the use of a lot of words reveals struggle with the message.  Proofs don't really exist. 

I disagree, proofs most certainly do exist in the world of science.  Not so much in the field of religion.  Besides, what I was asking for is some science to support your proclamation, rather than a reiteration of a personal belief system, anecdotes, or some vague analogy or observation parallel to an unrelated phenomena.

What I find amusing is that many have the "belief' that adding low ohm coils or deleting resistors, increases the spark voltage at the plugs.  It does not.  It is the spark gap that determines the firing voltage.  The plug still fires at the same voltage, given the gap remains the same, whether the resistors are present or not.  Science proves that.

You want a human analogy?  Tilt your head up to the Sun at mid day.  Are you more likely to burn your retina with long blinks or short ones?  (Kids, don't try this!!)  ;D




Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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wdhewson

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2010, 04:36:39 PM »
TwoTired--  I just don't get it.  

You write that deleting resistance does not up the power.  But the most basic power equation for electricity is P=I^2R.  So if you halve the resistance power is halved but the increased current is squared, which takes the power way up.  This is really the simplest of electrical control and theory.

I trust that most readers have gotten their fill of this thread, as have I.

Offline Frostyboy

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2010, 05:31:26 PM »
TwoTired--  I just don't get it.  
  But the most basic power equation for electricity is P=I^2R.  So if you halve the resistance power is halved but the increased current is squared, which takes the power way up.  This is really the simplest of electrical control and theory.

There's probably truth in this formula for the low voltage side of things(in our case 12v dc), however does this actually apply to secondary voltage generated by the coil?

I wonder why spark plug manufacturers produce 'resistor' plugs to be used with suppression leads. These resistor plugs also use wide gaps (1.1mm).

I actually support TT's comments. I have found that it is possible to make a misfiring oil fouled plug to fire by removing the lead from the plug & forcing the spark to jump an air gap to the plug cap. Why does this work? Because adding resistance to the secondary circuit increases the power of the spark across the electrodes I assume.
Carry on fellas.  ;)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2010, 06:04:40 PM »
You write that deleting resistance does not up the power.  But the most basic power equation for electricity is P=I^2R.  So if you halve the resistance power is halved but the increased current is squared, which takes the power way up.  This is really the simplest of electrical control and theory.

Yes, that is the simple equation for steady state or instantaneous calculation for DC circuits.  The coil discharge event is most certainly NOT a DC or instantaneous condition.  It is a AC impulse discharge with a frequency domain.  Impedance calculations for AC circuits are far more complex than simple DC circuits or the equations that apply to them.   For example, the current and voltage output of the coil is not in phase, voltage output rises in advance of current output and so are out of phase.   Simple resistive DC circuits don't do that.
See: http://physics.bu.edu/~duffy/py106/ACcircuits.html

I trust that most readers have gotten their fill of this thread, as have I.
Most readers here will not understand the complex equations that are required to demonstrate that power is merely distributed by the in-line resistors in the spark leads rather than blocked by it.  And, it is clear that those that don't want to understand and wish remain happily ignorant will object to explanations that are beyond their current level of education.  Even people with AA degrees often find it difficult to grasp the almost endless nuances found in AC circuits.  And, as the frequency goes up, the tiniest of details can make a huge difference in circuit function.  It does certainly seem pointless to explain them here, especially to an unwilling audience.
I know this is going to sound insulting to many readers.  That is not intended here.  I'm just trying to be factual and explain the situation.  If you are unaware what Inductive Reactance or Capacitive Reactance is, you will not understand the equations that demonstrate that inline resistance in the spark leads does not reduce power to the spark plugs.
Additionally, almost every modern manufacturer of vehicles knows this and installs resistor plugs AND resistance wires in their ignition systems.  It is hard to imagine thousands of engineers got it wrong and the untrained home mechanic has sufficient information and knowledge to proclaim them all wrong.  Does posting a contrary statement on the internet suddenly make it true?

I tried to explain it simply so that non-engineers can get a handle on it.  But, stubborn religious zealots are hard to sway from their core beliefs, and would rather try and win those to their cause with other than science arguments.

Ignorance has many levels.  Often, one learns about how much they don't know by learning a lot.  I am certainly among these sorts.
It wasn't until after I was 20 years old that I realized I didn't know everything I needed to know.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Just Curious... Resistor Caps Needed?
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2010, 06:21:18 PM »
I actually support TT's comments. I have found that it is possible to make a misfiring oil fouled plug to fire by removing the lead from the plug & forcing the spark to jump an air gap to the plug cap. Why does this work? Because adding resistance to the secondary circuit increases the power of the spark across the electrodes I assume.
In the interest of better understanding, please let me explain.
Given the same atmospheric conditions within the gap.  The spark gap distance determines the voltage needed to make the jump.  A wider gap requires more voltage to make the jump.  It doesn't have to be just one gap.  Indeed, the SOHC4 fires two plugs at once from a single coil, and therefore must jump two gaps at one time.
  Adding an extra air gap requires extra voltage to fire.  In our Kettering systems, this means that the coil's magnetic field must collapse further and make more voltage at all the spark gaps.  There is a limit, of course, when the coil can't store enough energy to make the field big enough to jump ANY and ALL gaps.  Meaning, if you make the gap(s) too big, it will never make the spark jump, 'cause the coil can't make enough voltage before full field collapse.

So, when you pulled off the ign. lead, you forced the coil to make more voltage, and this sometimes makes a stubborn plug fire more consistently.

Cheers,

Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
72 500, 74 550, 75 550K, 75 550F, 76 550F, 77 550F X2, 78 550K, 77 750F X2, 78 750F, 79CX500, 85 700SC, GL1100

Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.