Author Topic: What now? Idle "hover"  (Read 15068 times)

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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #50 on: August 13, 2010, 10:47:38 AM »


You never did answer the question about return springs pressure changes.


You still haven't eliminated the mechanical timing advance mechanism, have you? 



 What was the question about return spring(s) changes? There's only one return spring on my carbs.

 I have not eliminated the advance yet. We'll be working on that some more in the next few days.
 I will also try removing the cable and spring and see what the action feels like.
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #51 on: August 13, 2010, 10:52:48 AM »
What was the question about return spring(s) changes? There's only one return spring on my carbs.

I asked if it was the stock return spring or a replacement that some folks put on to reduce "hand fatigue".
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #52 on: August 13, 2010, 12:02:26 PM »
 Stock return spring.....and it's VERY strong.
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Offline Kevin400F

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #53 on: August 13, 2010, 03:45:47 PM »
Scott, take the carbs off the bike and cycle the linkage open & closed a dozen times, examining the position of each slide each time.  Maybe take a few detailed pictures for us during the process.  Sooner or later, when one of the slides hangs open a little bit, we'll zero in on that one and figure out what's doing it.

Kevin

Offline Kevin400F

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #54 on: August 19, 2010, 03:13:05 PM »
What ever happened on this one?  It was a pretty good discussion, then nothing.  Did the idle hang up and the bike went over a cliff or something?

Offline gregk

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #55 on: August 24, 2010, 03:31:54 PM »
Kevin

I'm wondering the same thing.  i'd pay money to fix the same problem in my 550.

greg
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #56 on: August 24, 2010, 06:02:16 PM »
 Actually, it's sort of in limbo. The bike is being used to test a prototype electronic ignition/points replacement set-up. (The RPM sticking happened with points as well as the E.I., so I suspect the advance assembly or carbs at this point).
 The prototype is done and drawings made, but the points plate and ignition stuff went to the machine shop as a sample. When I get all that stuff back, I have another advance assembly I'm going to try.

 I'm as anxious as anyone to see what happens! I should know something by the end of the week.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #57 on: September 08, 2010, 02:17:21 PM »
 Hope to have the bike back by the weekend. Still waiting on some parts for the electronic ignition.
  The new (well....different...not new) advance assembly is installed and, while better, the problem seems to still be there. Let me get everything back together and put a few miles on the bike. If the problem still persists, I'll start from square one and go back through EVERYTHING again.
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Offline gregk

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2010, 03:07:39 PM »
Scott

i feel badly that i am doing nothing to solve our common problem, just checking this thread every so often with the hope you have figured out the problem.
Good luck and keep us posted.

greg
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #59 on: September 08, 2010, 03:22:59 PM »
  Same here. The bike's been off the road for a few weeks while the prototype ignition is being built. Some hang ups at the machine shop have stalled progress.

  I want to ride it a little bit first, but it appears the carbs may be coming off again. I have new manifold O-rings and boots for the manifolds. Even though I can NOT find a vacuum leak, I wasn't going to remove the carbs again without replacing these parts.

 I just can't see it being anything "mechanical". If it is carb related, it has to be a plugged circuit, wrong jet size, fuel level, etc.
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Offline Spanner 1

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #60 on: September 08, 2010, 05:35:59 PM »
Still think you need to move the slide needles down ( leaner ) I notch, opposite to others advise ::), as I still think a raised needle allows the engine vacuum at idle to 'draw' fuel from the main jet which produces a run-away rpm and would actually lift all the slides slightly as rpm increases...... witnessed that happen on a 750F1.... but it may not be that, altho' you have tried everything else at this point !!
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #61 on: September 14, 2010, 05:09:43 PM »
 Well, the new advance mechanism is in there, springs trimmed to get full advance, timing set and electronic ignition installed..... and it's still hanging up.

 Guess I'll be going into the carbs again. My guess is float height or the needle clip position, but what do I know?
  I'll install new boots and O-rings on the manifolds while they're off. I'll also remove the spring and work the throttle; see what happens.
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Offline anchorweight550

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #62 on: September 14, 2010, 06:42:56 PM »
I was having this same problem. For me it turned out that my fuel height was way too high, but not high enough to leak. It would idle really well when I would first start it up, but then burble out again and again as it got warmer. Started to knock, spit, and smell like gas ass. I would have to crank the idle adjuster to keep it running, but for some reason that would make my idle hang, and I KNEW there weren't any air leaks. The idle adjuster also had almost no effect. When my tank was about 1/4 full, everything seemed to clear up. It would idle well and immediately return back to 1050 when revved. That was until I got a full tank of gas. The burbles and spits all over again. So I was thinking the extra pressure from a full tank of gas somehow got more gas into my bowls. I looked back in the carbs and my float needles all had those tiny little worn rings around them. Maybe this might help?

Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #63 on: September 15, 2010, 02:24:02 AM »
 Well, the needles/seats have all been replaced, but I do plan on checking float height. I really hope it's something as simple as re-setting the floats.
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Offline KB02

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #64 on: September 15, 2010, 06:22:15 AM »
Well, the needles/seats have all been replaced, but I do plan on checking float height. I really hope it's something as simple as re-setting the floats.

That's what I'm hoping, too, on my bike. I'm planning on getting out to the garage today to try it out. My floats were WAY off.
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #65 on: September 15, 2010, 07:23:43 AM »
I'm with Spanner that the needle is the problem. You said you replaced the needles with aftermarket but I am not sure you went back to stock. The aftermarket needles are known to have quality issues for uniform tapper. This will allow very minor clearance on one or more carbs when they should be 'resting' on the main to keep it closed. Raising the clip will help to solve the idle problem but is not the final resolution.

I have cleaned stock needles that were sitting in old fuel for years only to find an 'etching' circle at the contact point with the jet. A few years ago I began to sonic clean my carbs and have better results. If you can not get new HONDA needles, good used ones will be better than aftermarket.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #66 on: September 15, 2010, 05:18:40 PM »
 I still have the stock needles. I will clean them and re-use them. I plan on checking the slides for sticking. Checking the float height (again) and making sure all passages are open. After that, I'm out of options.

 My buddy, who's had the bike this week, told me the problem doesn't seem to happen as badly when the bike is cold. As soon as it warms up, it starts hanging. I plan on riding it for a day or so (been without a bike TOO LONG!) and then going into the carbs.
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #67 on: September 16, 2010, 03:48:00 AM »
 Well, I dug out the old carb parts last night. I also talked to the guy who helped me rebuild the carbs.
 Just to throw a kink into things, it looks like the factory slide needles ARE in the carbs. Of course, we'll double check, but throws out the "Keyster problem", in all likelihood.

 Looking at the leftover parts, it looks like the only parts we used from the rebuild kit were the mains, the float needles and the gaskets. Everything else is original Honda.

 That only leaves float height or something funky with an internal circuit, right? Or do you think I still need to play with the clip position on the slides?

 EDIT What about this.....If I'm using the stock slide needles and aftermarket mains, could that be the culprit? My stock mains were too knackered up to use. Maybe the two profiles don't match.

 I'm grasping at straws here.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 06:07:17 AM by Scott S »
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Offline Old Scrambler

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #68 on: September 16, 2010, 12:28:22 PM »
The main jets may be the problem.........related to seating with the needles. Raising the clips would tend to solve the problem but you may have to re-sinch!

The replacement float needles tend to require significant float tang adjustments. Your fuel and float levels may appear to be correct but will tend to allow a slightly higher fuel level.  If you used the Keyster float bowl gaskets, they are prone to swellling when wet and may cause a float to 'hang' a little higher which allows more fuel to continue to be sucked by the main when the throttle is closed.   
Dennis in Wisconsin
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #69 on: September 16, 2010, 01:16:03 PM »
The main jet feeds the emulsion tubes and the needle jet.  The slide needle works in concert with the needle jet.
It is hard for me to believe either of these have any contribution to an "idle hover".

Pilot circuit, vacuum balance, vacuum leak, or fuel level in the bowl issues, certainly may.
Maybe even slide movement/sticking issues. (But, this should make vacuum balance problematic.)

Cheers,
Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #70 on: September 16, 2010, 01:31:26 PM »
 Just an update: I can rule out the advance mechanism. Not only did I swap advance assemblies and the problem remains, but my old advancer is now in my buddy's CB750 and it runs great. That just leaves carbs.

-All of the circuits were checked with air and carb cleaner when the carbs were apart. We will check them again.

-The vacuum balance is dead on. I will re-synch them when they go back on the carbs.

-I cannot find a vacuum leak, but I have new Honda o-rings and rubbers for the manifolds. I will install them when the carbs come off.

-I will check and set float height.

-We plan on checking the linkage and adjusters thoroughly for sticking or binding.

 The bike will idle at 900rpm. If I give it gas, it hangs at ~2K rpm. If I kill the engine with the kill switch, the bike will fire right back up and idle at 900 rpm until I give it throttle.

  Even though it's running at 2K+, it's difficult to pull away from a stop. It acts like it's loaded up. I have to clear the throttle and feather the clutch. Once it's cleared out, it snaps to attention.

 Top end is fine. Will pull to red line and responds nicely to sharp throttle inputs.
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Offline KB02

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #71 on: September 17, 2010, 04:11:02 AM »
We totally have the same problem.  ??? We MUST find a cure. This is driving me nuts.

Mine will stumble of the line unless I rev and feather. Once I get above 4-5k it pulls like a freight train. My idle hangs around 3-4k, though.

...Pilot circuit, vacuum balance, vacuum leak, or fuel level in the bowl issues, certainly may.

Let me pick your brain, TT:
The Pilot circuit... If there was a plug in the pilot circuit of one (or more) of the carbs, how could this cause the issue? I mean technically. Could it be possible that a partial blockage exists that plugs up the circuit under lower vacuum but opens up under higher vacuum? The faster the engine goes, the more vacuum is present and the blockage allows enough fuel to pass that the cylinder(s) that isn't running kicks in and the engine turns faster (Idle hovers). When the engine is slowed, the vacuum pressure is not enough to overcome this blockage and the idle circuit remains closed but the engine still runs.

Does that make sense? Is it possible?

I'm grasping at straws here.

Just sifting through the straws Scott picked at earlier...
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Offline Scott S

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #72 on: September 17, 2010, 04:31:13 AM »
 I THINK I have mine figured out. Rode over to a friends house last night. He's a 2 stroke guy and before I even got off the bike he said "Your floats are too high". Apparently, 2 strokes are very carb sensitive and he's seen this same situation before. He also owned a CB750 in the past and is a little familiar with Keihin carbs.

 We pulled the two outer bowls and, sure enough, they were slap full. Adjusted those float levels on the bike (to 22mm), made some minor idle and mixture screw adjustments and she's MUCH more ride-able now!

 I still get a tiny bit of loading up at stop lights or just off idle, but it's easily cleared out. The hanging idle seems to be gone.

 I'm pulling the carbs this morning to adjust the two inner carbs. I'll also replace those manifold rubber bits and give it a good vacuum sync with the gauges when we're done. I should know by this afternoon whether she's cured or not.
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Offline gregk

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #73 on: September 17, 2010, 08:39:40 AM »


Scott

Your float level solution has given me new hope and more importantly, motivation.  I'm going back into my 550 and recheck the float levels.  As the carbs for the 76-550 appear a one year only set up, i am wondering if there is a different float setting.

I don't want it to go like a motorcycle, I want it to go like a rocket!

Offline TwoTired

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Re: What now? Idle "hover"
« Reply #74 on: September 17, 2010, 10:53:18 AM »
Let me pick your brain, TT:
The Pilot circuit... If there was a plug in the pilot circuit of one (or more) of the carbs, how could this cause the issue? I mean technically. Could it be possible that a partial blockage exists that plugs up the circuit under lower vacuum but opens up under higher vacuum? The faster the engine goes, the more vacuum is present and the blockage allows enough fuel to pass that the cylinder(s) that isn't running kicks in and the engine turns faster (Idle hovers). When the engine is slowed, the vacuum pressure is not enough to overcome this blockage and the idle circuit remains closed but the engine still runs.

Does that make sense? Is it possible?
Somewhat.  But, there are still some areas of misunderstanding.

The pilot circuit operates in parallel with the mains/throttle valve fuel delivery circuit.
With the slides closed or nearly closed in the carb bore air velocity is pretty low, and the venturi pressure drop is mostly negated.
The mains/throttle valve fuel delivery circuit is, for the most part, shut off.  It's not a coincidence that the pilot exit port is located at the engine side rim of the slide, while the mains/throttle valve fuel delivery exit is ahead of that on the inlet air flow.
This arrangement allow the low pressure from piston fall to have the maximum effect on the pilot exit port, rather than the upstream mains/throttle valve fuel delivery circuit.

So, the pilot circuit is the "minimum requirements" fuel allotter for the engine at idle or slide mostly closed condition.
If the carbs don't have an enrichment device to dump fuel into the bore when the slides are suddenly opened (allows outside atmospheric pressure to reach all fuel exit ports), then for the engine to have enough fuel to gain rpm, the pilot mixture must be over rich.  (Do recall that the fuel flow through all the fuel metering jets at a rate determined by the differential pressure across the metering orifice.  The "push" comes for outside atmospheric, the differential is cause either by the piston falling or the venturi effect, or a combination of both depending on throttle, or slide position.)

So, if the pilot delivery is too lean because of fuel circuity restriction (or the lack of pressure differential on that circuit due to inlet duct changes), the engine will stumble/wheeze wherever the throttle is advanced (sudden loss o differential pressure).  At above 1/4 (-ish) throttle/slide position, the piston fall pressure drop is more easily applied to the mains/throttle valve fuel delivery circuit exit, and adds more of it's delivery capability to the air inrush.  At some transition point in the air velocity inrush and increasing speed curve, the venturi asserts it's contribution to the pressure drop, allowing the mains/throttle valve fuel delivery circuit to assert it's dominance.

It's rather difficult to describe operation via only written media, especially if the reader cannot form the words into mental images of carb parts, and invisible pressure points.

15 minutes at a white board would probably go a long way toward better understanding, even though I have no claim to being an artist.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,



Lloyd... (SOHC4 #11 Original Mail List)
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Those that learn from history are doomed to repeat it by those that don't learn from history.