Topic: Free money

[kmb69]

True story. I was a machinist at the time working for this guy who started his machine shop business in his garage and over some years had built up a very successful business.

One day I overheard a guy telling the shop owner that his success was "just luck".

The shop owner replied, "Yeh, it seems like the harder I work, the luckier I get."

[Deltarider]

Can't believe the article provokes all this and again no shortage of oneliners. If it looks like there's mutual profit to be made, what's wrong with some further experiments? No need to use big words like democracy and all that. It's something similar to what Paul Collier has described in his famous The Bottom Billion. Hey, everybody can climb... just help them to the first step and they'll climb like mad... but busy fighting the sea and not being able to grasp even the lowest step of that swinging ladder, help is mandatory and... an investment. You just saved your future customer.
Anyway I thought that article interesting enough to post.
If you allow me I would like to put an extra question. In Belgium voting is still obligatory as it used to be in Holland. To my regret they lifted the obligation here decades ago. My very personal opinion is that for enjoying the privilege of living in a democracy a state may demand its citizens to vote. A minimum I would say. Yet in many democracies you are free to abstain, resulting in that sometimes half the population doesn't show up. What do we think about this and... I like to learn.

[kmb69]

If all of the War on Poverty's programs had been fully funded in 1964, or were fully funded today, America could wipe out poverty.
Carrie Wofford

Yes, we voted on this.
1964 61.4% of eligible voters
2012 57.5% of eligible voters
Think we would have more/less debt if it was 100%?

US Debt:
Fiscal Yr.   Debt (in TRILLIONS)  GDP (in TRILLIONS)  Debt/GDP Ratio
2013         $16.738                   $16.913 in Q3           99%
2012         $16.066                   $16.356                    98%
1964         $   .317                   $  3.780                      8.38%

One TRILLION = 1,000,000,000,000. (That's 12 zeros)

BEEN EXPERIMENTING FOR A LONG TIME. IT AIN'T WORKING!

It's a fine line between abject delusion and professional political hackery.
Conrad Shull

[Deltarider]

Think we would have more/less debt if it was 100%?

Consoling thought for you maybe: all money is born as debt. When I was in high school every bank had to have 7 cash for every 100 it loaned out. Now banks here are complaining Europe is forcing them from 2:100 to go to 3:100.
The reason I asked is my annoyance that when people make almost racist remarks about politicians (and theft, etc, etc) I never know if those people actually showed up at the poll.
If you didn't vote, how can you ever complain? Or am I seeing it to simple?

[JeffSTL]

Here in America it's all about idiology and fundamentalism. Much of our population has little time for nuance, experimentation or change of any kind.

[70CB750]

Interesting how the useful idiots who say - you know it could work - always live in free world and have 0 experience with practical socialism.  And when they hear all that #$%*e we had to live with the answer is always the same: it did not work because it was not managed by the right people. 

[JeffSTL]

We live in a liberal democracy in the U.S. A social democracy. We can make it whatever we want. It is not to be compared to a communist regime.

[calj737]

Correction JeffSTL: the USA is NOT a Social democracy, it's a Federal Republic. Technically, it's a Federal Constitional Rpublic. This common mis-statement is a large part of what's wrong in the US. Those who can vote, shouldn't. They don't know their rights nor the basis of the government structure they are electing representatives to.

KMB - +100 !

[Retro Rocket]

Interesting how the useful idiots who say - you know it could work - always live in free world and have 0 experience with practical socialism.  And when they hear all that #$%*e we had to live with the answer is always the same: it did not work because it was not managed by the right people.

I find it interesting that people are so closed minded, I also find it interesting that their only defense seems to be to call anyone that disagrees an "idiot". Your last statement is factual whether you like it or not, you only ever talk about "poor" or "failed" socialist regimes because it suits your {the detractors} arguments, besides this isn't converting any town or country into socialism, it was a tried and successful "policy" only. There's always 2 sides to every story but you wish to dwell on the negatives and use words like "socialist" as a dirty word with no explanation of the actual concept and only ever refer to countries where it has failed  and it failed because it was taken advantage of. All Western countries have socialist policies, and the people who yell loudest rarely have anything that works better to offer at all apart from negative mantra and name calling, thats hardly a positive retort.  If you read the outcomes of the trial in both countries {none of which were the US} it was a resounding success especially when to compared to the failed policies of current governments with huge bureaucracies still being used today.

Can't believe the article provokes all this and again no shortage of oneliners. If it looks like there's mutual profit to be made, what's wrong with some further experiments? No need to use big words like democracy and all that. It's something similar to what Paul Collier has described in his famous The Bottom Billion. Hey, everybody can climb... just help them to the first step and they'll climb like mad... but busy fighting the sea and not being able to grasp even the lowest step of that swinging ladder, help is mandatory and... an investment. You just saved your future customer.

Exactly....

[JeffSTL]

Correction JeffSTL: the USA is NOT a Social democracy, it's a Federal Republic. Technically, it's a Federal Constitional Rpublic. This common mis-statement is a large part of what's wrong in the US. Those who can vote, shouldn't. They don't know their rights nor the basis of the government structure they are electing representatives to.

KMB - +100 !

Wrong? A constitutional republic is a form of liberal democracy. Maybe you should read before you start deciding who can and can't vote. Ever since Ronnie everyone who disagrees with anything is a liberal socialist. In today's world Ike would be shouted down as a socialist. Don't even want to think about what they would say about Lincoln.

We live in a liberal democracy with socialist programs. Always have and always will.

Liberal democracy definition-

"Liberal democracy is a form of government in which representative democracy operates under the principles of liberalism, i.e. protecting the rights of minorities and, especially, the individual. It is characterized by fair, free, and competitive elections between multiple distinct political parties, a separation of powers into different branches of government, the rule of law in everyday life as part of an open society, and the equal protection of human rights, civil rights, civil liberties, and political freedoms for all persons. To define the system in practice, liberal democracies often draw upon a constitution, either formally written or uncodified, to delineate the powers of government and enshrine the social contract. After a period of sustained expansion throughout the 20th century, liberal democracy became the predominant political system in the world.

A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional republic, such as France, Germany, India, Ireland, Italy, or the United States, or a constitutional monarchy, such as Japan, Spain, the Netherlands, Canada, or the United Kingdom. It may have a presidential system (Argentina, Brazil, Mexico, the United States), a semi-presidential system (France and Taiwan), or a parliamentary system (Australia, Canada, India, New Zealand, Poland, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom)." -Wikipedia.

[JeffSTL]

This is why I'd like to leave. The social fabric is torn in this society. Since "generation me me me" was rung in with Ronnie, people only care about themselves and not their fellow citizens. No more united we stand. Conversations like this really bring out people's true colors. Just the thought of trying to help others makes them angry.

[Terry in Australia]

Conversations like these and the constant gun debate make me want to get out. The US is not capable of doing anything big or important anymore. Rich people get to buy laws that favor themselves. All poor and middle class people can do is vote in hopes that the people they elect will have mercy on them.

Retro, what are the chances of an American with training and 20 years experience in CNC machining bring able to land a job in the field in Oz? How difficult would it be to import my 750k?

Since you haven't had an answer yet mate, yep, come on over by all means. You'll have to leave some of your guns at home, but that's OK, you won't need them here anyway.

You can ship your bike out, and if you're smart, sell your guns and use the money to buy some more bikes to ship out to Oz, they go for twice as much here as they sell for in the US. Plenty of work for skilled folk here, and you'll like our pay and working conditions compared to the US.

I know a guy in NC who just picked up around 100 1960's-1980's bikes, I told him to send them here and I'll sell them for him, but he won't spend money to make money, so I guess he'll never be a good "Capitalist". Cheers, Terry.  

[kmb69]

"...ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

Wow! Have we come a long way or not?

[LesterPiglet]

Define "country".

[kmb69]

"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing."
William Jefferson Clinton

[scrapvalue]

"...ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

Wow! Have we come a long way or not?

Why do they only kill,(or try to), the good ones?       JFK was way more conservative then the conservatives are now.

[Retro Rocket]

"...ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."
John F. Kennedy, Inaugural Address, January 20, 1961

Wow! Have we come a long way or not?

Why do they only kill,(or try to), the good ones?       JFK was way more conservative then the conservatives are now.

It was a far more conservative era.....  It think the general bulk of conservatives these days have moved more to the right.....

[simon#42]

This is why I'd like to leave. The social fabric is torn in this society. Since "generation me me me" was rung in with Ronnie, people only care about themselves and not their fellow citizens. No more united we stand. Conversations like this really bring out people's true colors. Just the thought of trying to help others makes them angry.

i would like to contradict you here but unfortunately you are correct , as it obviously bothers you australia , canada or pretty much all of western europe will be much more to your taste .

im sure the quote book kmb69 got for christmas will shed more light on this subject .

[Terry in Australia]

Just don't come over on a leaky boat and demand refugee status, or we'll send you to a God-forsaken Island where you'll probably die from Malaria.........

[70CB750]

   Useful idiot is terminus technicus  used for people serving as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.  Typically attributed to Lenin, but there is actually no record that Vladimír Iljič ever used that expression.

   The list of useful idiots is quite long starting with G.B.Shaw and his support for Stalin after visiting Russia 1931, Leni Riefenstahl with her Triumph des Willens, peace movement ofr Vietnam era, peace movement of the eighties and the latest Kim Jong-un's pet Dennis Rodman.

That's for an explanation, the rest - ROFLMAO - that's exactly what I was talking about, it never fails 

[JeffSTL]

   Useful idiot is terminus technicus  used for people serving as propagandists for a cause whose goals they are not fully aware of, and who are used cynically by the leaders of the cause.  Typically attributed to Lenin, but there is actually no record that Vladimír Iljič ever used that expression.

   The list of useful idiots is quite long starting with G.B.Shaw and his support for Stalin after visiting Russia 1931, Leni Riefenstahl with her Triumph des Willens, peace movement ofr Vietnam era, peace movement of the eighties and the latest Kim Jong-un's pet Dennis Rodman.

That's for an explanation, the rest - ROFLMAO - that's exactly what I was talking about, it never fails 

+1

Useful idiot's.  There sure doesn't seem to be any shortage of those!

No one was talking about dictators and despots. Stalin, Lenin and Kim Jung Un have nothing to do with the conversation. Deltarider's post was just a interesting story of of a new and different approach of helping people so they can become part of productive society and a study of the human psyche.  I think the reaction to it  is also an interesting study of the human physche.

[kmb69]

+10 scrapvalue

im sure the quote book kmb69 got for christmas will shed more light on this subject .

No quote book for Christmas, Simon. Just remember the context and Google them so as not to misquote. I am ancient but dementia has not set in YET - I think.

I am only speaking about my "country" and all others can do what they will. I grew up in a strong, powerful, and very prosperous "country" where one could improve their position in life by working for it and incentive to do so existed. The "progressive" movement has caused us to "devolve". We are beholden to other "countries" in debt, the "impoverished" are encouraged to be takers without any contribution other than breathing. Over 50% of the new "family" involves single parenting, usually only a Mom desperate to provide (or not) for their children with no father figure other than the government, the police, or a jailer. I have been able to actually be employed with work since age 12. In several of my jobs, I have had the opportunity to travel the planet and to observe standards of living around the world. Most of our "impoverished" live at a standard equal to or better than most that are considered "middle class" around the world. Since the government has no money of its own, but rather only what they confiscate from the "producing" citizens, the "producing" citizens furnish the "impoverished" with "free" housing, "free" food, "free" transportation, "free" big screen TV's, "free" cell phones, "free" internet access, and the list goes on and on. Due to the "dis-incentive" to do anything else, the "producers" are rewarded with more of the same or some thugs on the streets filming their pals "playing" the "knock out game" with their "free" cell phones and then posting it on their "free" internet expecting "kudos" from their thug pals. Very few reach for that second rung on the ladder as they have no incentive to do so.

It is mind boggling, interviewing the relatively few younger applicants at our business that claim they want to "work". Most want to "start" as Vice President and are expecting rapid growth opportunity from there. They want it on a golden platter instead of working to "earn" it.

My "country" is near or at the tipping point where there are less "producers" than "takers" - a point where we all get poorer, but of course "equally poor". Simon, I think it was Margaret Thatcher that said, "The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money." We are already $17 TRILLION in the RED with little or no hope other than the "country" to go BANKRUPT and/or our currency essentially becoming worthless. At such point, our "government" becomes 100% our master and we will work for "them" instead of "them" working for us. Unless you are "disposable" - old or unable to work, you can rest assured that all will be "working" at whatever "assignment" our "benevolent government" decides.

[JeffSTL]

Deleted. There is no reason left.

[Terry in Australia]

Most of our "impoverished" live at a standard equal to or better than most that are considered "middle class" around the world.

I'm interested in finding out which ("First World"?) countries middle class are worse off than America's poor?

[BeSeeingYou]

Conversations like these and the constant gun debate make me want to get out. The US is not capable of doing anything big or important anymore. Rich people get to buy laws that favor themselves. All poor and middle class people can do is vote in hopes that the people they elect will have mercy on them.

Retro, what are the chances of an American with training and 20 years experience in CNC machining bring able to land a job in the field in Oz? How difficult would it be to import my 750k?

I would get the hell out of Missouri for a start.  Come north to Minnesota...it's almost like Canada.