Topic: Should I waste my money on JIS screwdrivers?

[MCRider]

Cycle-Ranger,

Thanks for the Mc-master link!  I just ordered a set.

  Yes, I have a "Prima" impact driver, and Yes, I replaced all the JIS Phillips screws I could (Including the little buggers on my points plate), as the PO's tore them up.  I think some of the fastener damage has as much to do with the absence of "JIS" tools, as it does with lazy "mechanics/shade-tree wrench turners" that simply did not use the "correct" size "American"  screwdriver, or fetch an impact driver.  I did not know about the "JIS" tools until reading here, but never stripped a clean un-molested screw on the bikes, because I used the impact driver (sometimes with a 4lb hand-sledge) to break everything loose.  Even the little ones inside the handlebar switches... I had a helper hold a heavy metal block under the bars to "buck-up" the blows.

Fabricator

Now there's a man of my heart. Impact driver needs an IMPACT. 4lb sledge, YEAH.

[ColinMc]

I use a good sized dead blow hammer. No vibration of metal against metal, and no bounce back like a regular rubber mallet. Got almost every one of the phillips head bolts out of my engine case with one good solid whack. Plus it works great for making knee dents in the tank! lol

[754]

 I use about a 3 1/2  lb, solid Billet brass Hammer..

 Top is hex about 2.5 across by 6 inch long, Handle is one inch brass with knurled hand grip..
 it is called the "Golden Hammer"

 I found it, at a small junk store beside the lake, when at an ice race..

 Its adequate.. one hit usually works.. it has persuaisive POWERS...

[Gregorymoto]

http://www.sears.com/shc/s/p_10153_12605_00945787000P?vName=Tools&cName=HandTools&sName=Hammers&psid=FROOGLE01&sid=I0084400010000100600&aff=Y&origin=prod



Rubber Mallet

[mystic_1]

3lb Dead Blow Hammer


mystic_1

[Hinz]

Rob, are you telling us you found allen heads for your:

headlight screws

switch housings

point cover

clutch cover

bearing holder oil passage, under shifter cover

 for your 750..??.. if you do not have a 750 disregard

yes
yes
yes
yes
and...
yes

PLUS they're available in stainless or chrome.
http://dmpolish.com/catalog.php

I'm still working on making a spreadsheet with all replacement hardware but I won't post it until I KNOW for a fact that they'll fit.

[Gregorymoto]

Hay Hinz, Keep me posted on that. Thanks...

[robdrobd]

I just got the impact driver. Best $20 I ever spent. All the case screws came out, but then the bit broke.  Where do I get replacement bits for these things. Do they just have them at Home Depot.

[CycleRanger]

Cycle-Ranger,

Thanks for the Mc-master link!  I just ordered a set.
Fabricator

That's where I got mine. $20 total. Good screwdrivers. Well worth it imho.

[markb]

I'm going to buy the screwdriver set from McMaster-Carr.  Anyone know where I can get some JIS tips for my impact driver?  It gets the screws out but you can tell they've been hit.
Thanks,
Mark

[Duke McDukiedook]

Honda states in the manual for the 750 that they went to non-JIS bits from the word go.

[SHELLFISH]

I've got two 1976 550's and never had a problem removing any of the screws anywhere.

Just lucky I guess from reading these posts!

[RAFster122s]

Just a data point to this thread...

Seems Motion Pro has entered the fray with the JIS  bits in a T-handle driver according to the latest issue of Motorcycle Classics that arrived today.
$21.99
"Narrow drive head profile fits into tight spaces.  Includes high grade S2 tool steel cross-head bits no. 1, no. 2, and no. 3 made to JIS metric standard. 5/16 inch drive heads."

The McMaster Carr page with JIS Screwdrivers:
http://www.mcmaster.com/#catalog/120/2805/=qutlor

It is unfortunate that the old McMaster Carr 3 piece set is no longer carried. The price is closer to the Vessel screwdriver set.

So, RJR Cool Tools still carries their Moody & Vessel JIS screwdrivers:
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/shop_item_detail.cfm?subcat_ID=137
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/shop_item_detail.cfm?subcat_ID=138
http://www.rjrcooltools.com/vessel.cfm

Plus the SOHC/4 member Gordon carries the Vessel at:

http://www.rrrtoolsolutions.com/

T-handled tools are quite handy additions to the motorcycle tool bag. I bought one by Tusk a few years ago and love it. Just need a set of JIS bit adapters as mine is 3/8" drive T wrench. Or this new Motion Pro tool.
Their wrench had 5/16" drive head in each of the T ends so you can us it on any of the three points. (Depending on how much leverage you need on the screw.)
It doesn't rule out the need for a good impact driver. But it sound like these 5/16" bits could be useful with an impact driver if lightly used...

David

[Duke McDukiedook]

FYI  - the best way to know if you have JIS screws in the first place is if there is a single recessed, dimpled dot between the cross on the head of the screw. No dot, not JIS.
The only time I have seen them on Hondas is on the carb screws and the throttle switch screws.
 

[MCRider]

JIS drivers fit both JIS and ISO, so that's a case for having them. ISO drivers fit only ISO. Which brings us to this.

The ID dot on JIS doesn't seem to be universal. Newer post 68 Hondas seem to use them. CB750s seem to use them, on switch screws, tach drive cable screw, headlight ring screws, etc. Mostly non-6mm screws. The 6mm screws do not have them leading me to think they are ISO. Since JIS drivers fit both, one can say hey my JIS driver fits nicely so it must be JIS. But I wonder. My ISO bits fit the 6mm nicely too, but not the non-6mm screws.

I just use ISO drivers and switch out any JIS screws I bugger up with allens.   

IF you are working on non-CB750, esp pre 68, those are primarily if not completely JIS, incl the 6mm, I think. But without the dots.

OCICBW

[Rgconner]

Take a standard screwdriver.

Grind off the first 2 to 3 mm of tip.

I did this with a set of freebee's from Harbor Freight and one decent Craftsman that was chipped.

Works fine, use the Dremel to make a slot cut and impact driver when it does not.

[Markcb750]

Screw Phillips heads; ISO, JIS, ANSI, SAE, they all suck.

They are the 8 Track Tapes of the fastener industry.

Get them out put in SHCS, BHCS, or Torx if you can find them.


Just my opinion.   But you know that.

[Geeto67]

#1 - buying tools is never a WASTE of money.

#2 - the question isn't should I buy x? But am I buying the correct tool for the job? In this case an impact driver, propane torch, penetrating oil, and anti seize are the correct tools for the job.

#3 - stainless bolts in aluminum cases. From a hardness perspective this is an issue because if you tighten the SS fastener too tight it can pull the soft aluminum threads out of the screw hole. Also you never install stainless into aluminum dry, either use a light machine oil, anti seize, or thread locker. It is extremely easy to damage the threads by cross threading so work slow and tighten everything by hand before picking up the Allen key.

Regarding galvanic corrosion, SS fasteners into aluminum isn't ideal. SS is closer to an cathode on the scale while aluminum is an anode. When combining you want a large anode and a small cathode (as opposed to the opposite which can lead to fastener failure) so as long as you aren't going deep sea diving with your cb Honda you should be ok. Still anti seize will keep the aluminum corrosion at bay. I have pulled many old SS Allen head fasteners out of bikes and seen the tell tale white powder indicating corrosion in the hole. Same goes for brass fasteners. Surprisingly iron is closer to aluminum on the anodic scale than brass or SS so you don't get galvanic corrosion, but that doesn't mean the fastener won't rust on its own.

Edit: I was reading the chart upside down.fixed.

[Black 750K8]

Screw Phillips heads ISO, JIS, ANSI, SAE, they all suck.

They are the 8 Track Tapes of the fastener industry.

Get them out put in SHCS, BHCS, or Torx if you can find them.


Just my opinion.   But you know that.

You got my vote I like allen or button head in SS or anodized. Love them on the points & plate the wrench stays on easy while making adjustments with the motor running. The main thing is don't get heavy handed with any of them. Use the antiseize of your choise some use copper some not but that could turn into a oil thread.
The answer to the OP No if you only have one bike. If you have a few other things to use them for yes.

[edwardmorris]

The JIS set + heavy duty impact driver from ilbikes/Gordon here have been great for a rebuild. Difference is very obvious once you start using them.

[brewsky]

JIS drivers fit both JIS and ISO, so that's a case for having them. ISO drivers fit only ISO. Which brings us to this.

The ID dot on JIS doesn't seem to be universal. Newer post 68 Hondas seem to use them. CB750s seem to use them, on switch screws, tach drive cable screw, headlight ring screws, etc. Mostly non-6mm screws. The 6mm screws do not have them leading me to think they are ISO. Since JIS drivers fit both, one can say hey my JIS driver fits nicely so it must be JIS. But I wonder. My ISO bits fit the 6mm nicely too, but not the non-6mm screws.

I just use ISO drivers and switch out any JIS screws I bugger up with allens.   

IF you are working on non-CB750, esp pre 68, those are primarily if not completely JIS, incl the 6mm, I think. But without the dots.

OCICBW

The "dots" actually indicate threaded fasteners whose thread pitch changed in the conversion to ISO pitches in 1967.
Since only 3, 4, 5, and 12mm sizes changed, only they would have the "dots".
1967 Service Bulliten attached:

[RRRToolSolutions]

Guys, we're so close to our Grand Opening that I will go ahead and invite you to get registered to our site. You won't be asked for your mailing address nor you phone number.

On or about March 10th, I should be ready to start shipping the most comprehensive and capable "Adventure Touring Tool Set" available anywhere. It will have the best Bits of the JIS/ISO standards availble and made in Japan. 11 of the tools in the set are my own design and exclusive to the Set. You'll get the RRR Sparkplug Wrench set too - this Patent Pending design will fit your CB750 and everything I've tried made from 1960 to 2014.

I'm going to be giving away tools and straps every week from the list of registered members on my site. RRR is not some big corporation, it's just me and a few volunteers so you will only get updates from me.

Come register and you'll be the first to see the newest and most innovative approach to tools in a long time. Gordon/RTS

http://www.rrrtoolsolutions.com/rrr-tool-solutions---tools-and-straps.html

[MCRider]

JIS drivers fit both JIS and ISO, so that's a case for having them. ISO drivers fit only ISO. Which brings us to this.

The ID dot on JIS doesn't seem to be universal. Newer post 68 Hondas seem to use them. CB750s seem to use them, on switch screws, tach drive cable screw, headlight ring screws, etc. Mostly non-6mm screws. The 6mm screws do not have them leading me to think they are ISO. Since JIS drivers fit both, one can say hey my JIS driver fits nicely so it must be JIS. But I wonder. My ISO bits fit the 6mm nicely too, but not the non-6mm screws.

I just use ISO drivers and switch out any JIS screws I bugger up with allens.   

IF you are working on non-CB750, esp pre 68, those are primarily if not completely JIS, incl the 6mm, I think. But without the dots.

OCICBW

The "dots" actually indicate threaded fasteners whose thread pitch changed in the conversion to ISO pitches in 1967.
Since only 3, 4, 5, and 12mm sizes changed, only they would have the "dots".
1967 Service Bulliten attached:

Thank you for that. There is a confirming paragraph in this link, scroll down a ways.
http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/step10/JIS-Japanese-Industrial-Standard/

So, I've lost track. I do know that if I use my ISO drivers on 6mm screws, little happens negatively. While using them on other sizes results in a deformation.

Someday I may buy some JIS tools.   

[brewsky]

JIS drivers fit both JIS and ISO, so that's a case for having them. ISO drivers fit only ISO. Which brings us to this.

The ID dot on JIS doesn't seem to be universal. Newer post 68 Hondas seem to use them. CB750s seem to use them, on switch screws, tach drive cable screw, headlight ring screws, etc. Mostly non-6mm screws. The 6mm screws do not have them leading me to think they are ISO. Since JIS drivers fit both, one can say hey my JIS driver fits nicely so it must be JIS. But I wonder. My ISO bits fit the 6mm nicely too, but not the non-6mm screws.

I just use ISO drivers and switch out any JIS screws I bugger up with allens.   

IF you are working on non-CB750, esp pre 68, those are primarily if not completely JIS, incl the 6mm, I think. But without the dots.

OCICBW

The "dots" actually indicate threaded fasteners whose thread pitch changed in the conversion to ISO pitches in 1967.
Since only 3, 4, 5, and 12mm sizes changed, only they would have the "dots".
1967 Service Bulliten attached:

Thank you for that. There is a confirming paragraph in this link, scroll down a ways.
http://www.instructables.com/id/When-a-Phillips-is-not-a-Phillips/step10/JIS-Japanese-Industrial-Standard/

So, I've lost track. I do know that if I use my ISO drivers on 6mm screws, little happens negatively. While using them on other sizes results in a deformation.

Someday I may buy some JIS tools.   

Me too!

One thing I never found documented is whether Honda ever converted from the JIS (non cam-out) head design for phillips screws or not. The bulliten mentions thread pitch, bolt head size and thickness, but is silent on head design change.

I did buy some Motion Pro T handle phillips that were advertised to be JIS, and they did seem to fit better than my standard drivers, but the metal was too soft and deformed on some of the tougher screws.

[Geeto67]

once the screw head has been buggered, it isn't anything anymore.

Personally I have found on untouched fastners that my JIS drivers fit the screws better than the same (and correct) size ISO driver. This has prevented me from ruining an untouched fastner that wasn't so stuck I needed an impact driver. IMHO if you own an old japanese motorcycle and plan to own another one in the future it is never a bad investment.

I do happen to have mixed feelings on swapping out everything for stainless allen head bolts as a "cure" for the cross headed screw issues. Remember Ironhead Harleys use a lot of allen head bolts from the factory and most of those have been so trashed by their previous owners that they on par with old hondas in the stripped fastner realm.