Topic: Marine gas. Ethanol free. Anyone tried it?

[Teatimetim]

Ethanol is a better fuel. You do need more of it though compared to gas. Google it. Higher octane, higher latent heat of evap. Many people run water/alc inj to make big power with boost.  You can run more timing, compression or boost. I ran 26- 28 psi with alc inj and 91 octane, 18-20 psi on just 91 octane. True it is less friendly as far as corrosion though.

The real problem with it, is that it kinda works oposite gas, Engine's running pure Alc will not overheat, and need to be almost choked off from air.  The main reason Ethenol makes gas cleaner, is that it has more oxgen in it, and thus evokes a cleaner burn, the downside is of course that you need more Alc (Ethenol) to burn, so fuel miliage drops, and unless the mixer in the bike is tuned rich, your going to have less power.

newer Cars and assorted motor items today are being tuned more for 10%, and car companies are gaining back some of the fuel miliage they had been losing.  But the design of a 70's Honda is much happier with no Ethenol fuel.

[lrutt]

I use it all the time in all my old bikes and old cars. They love it that's for sure. Most marina's should carry it.

[Duke McDukiedook]

Ethanol is a better fuel. You do need more of it though compared to gas. Google it. Higher octane, higher latent heat of evap. Many people run water/alc inj to make big power with boost.  You can run more timing, compression or boost. I ran 26- 28 psi with alc inj and 91 octane, 18-20 psi on just 91 octane. True it is less friendly as far as corrosion though.

Not in our bikes and older cars, it is a crappy compromise at best to force this on people.
They should still offer up ethanol free gas to people, this is crap.

[jamanred]

Ethanol is a better fuel. You do need more of it though compared to gas. Google it. Higher octane, higher latent heat of evap. Many people run water/alc inj to make big power with boost.  You can run more timing, compression or boost. I ran 26- 28 psi with alc inj and 91 octane, 18-20 psi on just 91 octane. True it is less friendly as far as corrosion though.

But ethenol absorbs water.  Water doesn't burn.  Infact, the amount of alcohol (10% ethenol added) is more alcohol than adding Dry Gas to your tank (kinda makes winterizing the fuel null).  And makes any gas tank with added fuel or fuel injector treatment less effective (lower gas mileage and more chance of water being absorbed into the fuel).

I'm not saying we are better off not using ethenol.  I just think the adding of ethanol is a band-aid and not a fix.  And wish I had access to ethenol free gas in my area.  Using the enzyme treatment isn't giving me better gas mileage.  Just smoother idle and less engine noise.

[Psychonaut]

But ethenol absorbs water.  Water doesn't burn.  Infact, the amount of alcohol (10% ethenol added) is more alcohol than adding Dry Gas to your tank (kinda makes winterizing the fuel null).  And makes any gas tank with added fuel or fuel injector treatment less effective (lower gas mileage and more chance of water being absorbed into the fuel).

I'm not saying we are better off not using ethenol.  I just think the adding of ethanol is a band-aid and not a fix.  And wish I had access to ethenol free gas in my area.  Using the enzyme treatment isn't giving me better gas mileage.  Just smoother idle and less engine noise.

For what it's worth....
Absorbing water does not mean it attracts water.  Many people in the turbo world run water/alcohol injection. Water does not burn this is true but it has a high latent heat evaporation. Most engines do not run lean but rich at WOT. In this case a little alcohol (ethanol) will lower the AFR. If it was a little rich with straight gas it will be making more power with ethanol and lower the knock threshold. With the same afr you can make more power than with straight gas.

Not in our bikes and older cars, it is a crappy compromise at best to force this on people.

Sohc, old or new engine it does not matter, this isn't lead. Air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio.

I'm just saying it is not as bad as many people think it is. If your bike runs on the lean side it will run worse with 10% E. If it runs on the rich side with 100% gasoline, it will run better with the 10% mix. 

[TwoTired]

Our SOHC4s have a vented fuel system, both at the tank and at the carb bowl reservoirs.  Ethanol will suck the humidity out of the air and have it combine with the fuel.  Practically speaking, it's a matter of semantics (or spin control) whether you wish to call it absorbtion or attraction.
Not a big deal usually, if the engine is constantly running, as the water just exits the tail pipe.

Let it sit, and the water continues to accumulate, which leads to corrosion by alkalai byproducts from ethanol combinations/reactions.  It also further leads to gumming of the gasoline, leading to plugging/restricting fuel metering orifices.

Further, the 77-78 SOHC4 models were forced to lean burn by the EPA's import restrictions.  This made them run hotter and on the edge of drivability.  Then to willfully destroy/damage the public's personal property, the corn lobby and the politicians mandated further leaning of the fuel with ethanol contamination. (And we voted to keep the incumbents.)

There isn't a very high percentage of the population that doesn't store their motorcycles during winter or rainy times, where the fuel can maximize it's absorption of water and increase its damaging effects.
These were NOT problems when the vehicles were first purchased and the government first collected import and sales taxes.

In effect, forcing the destruction or replacement of older vehicles is seen as a boon to tax collecting agencies.  Repair forces sales tax on parts and income revenue from labor (Income taxes).  Of course, vehicle replacement generates sales tax (possibly import tax), as well as income tax revenue from the manufacturers and the employees who make it.  For all these "benefits-of-a-'superior'-fuel" we further subsidize the corn industry so we may pay more to the tax collectors, ad nauseum.

[Retro Rocket]

Absorbing water does not mean it attracts water

Oh yes it does, ethanol is crap, pure and simple, we have been seriously duped by our g-ments into thinking it is a good alternative fuel, it is not. I have already seen rotten fuel tanks in cars that have sat with ethanol fuel in them, rubber parts falling to pieces, fuel lines turning to sh1t, the carb on my mower literally melted and it is around 30% less efficient.....sounds like great stuff to me....
I have yet to find one good mechanic that likes ethanol, they like the side effects though, more work for them....

[trueblue]

Absorbing water does not mean it attracts water

Oh yes it does, ethanol is crap, pure and simple, we have been seriously duped by our g-ments into thinking it is a good alternative fuel, it is not. I have already seen rotten fuel tanks in cars that have sat with ethanol fuel in them, rubber parts falling to pieces, fuel lines turning to sh1t, the carb on my mower literally melted and it is around 30% less efficient.....sounds like great stuff to me....
I have yet to find one good mechanic that likes ethanol, they like the side effects though, more work for them....

I personally hate the stuff, at the last place I worked we had a few older customers who had some very nice 50's and 60's model cars whose fuel systems basically fell to bits because they insisted on using the 'cheap' fuel because they couldn't afford to buy the expensive stuff on their pensions, I worked there for 2 years and by the end most of them had bought newer cars because the older ones were always breaking down, which could have been avoided if they hadn't used ethanol.

[70CB750]

Absorbing water does not mean it attracts water

Oh yes it does, ethanol is crap, pure and simple, we have been seriously duped by our g-ments into thinking it is a good alternative fuel, it is not. I have already seen rotten fuel tanks in cars that have sat with ethanol fuel in them, rubber parts falling to pieces, fuel lines turning to sh1t, the carb on my mower literally melted and it is around 30% less efficient.....sounds like great stuff to me....
I have yet to find one good mechanic that likes ethanol, they like the side effects though, more work for them....

+1  If you have high % alcohol in unsealed bottle (medical I mean:)) it will take humidity from the air and the % will keep dropping.  Alcohol is hygroscopic.

Dang, I didn't even know I know that word, it just popped up in my mind.

[Teatimetim]

Absorbing water does not mean it attracts water

Oh yes it does, ethanol is crap, pure and simple, we have been seriously duped by our g-ments into thinking it is a good alternative fuel, it is not. I have already seen rotten fuel tanks in cars that have sat with ethanol fuel in them, rubber parts falling to pieces, fuel lines turning to sh1t, the carb on my mower literally melted and it is around 30% less efficient.....sounds like great stuff to me....
I have yet to find one good mechanic that likes ethanol, they like the side effects though, more work for them....

Use of Ethenol is not mandated by the Government.  State governments in about 25 states have banned the use of MTBE because a. seaps through tanks some how into ground water b.  Will cause cancer very quickly in anyone who drinks it.

After the banning of Lead Fuel Companies turned to MTBE, now the banning of MTBE has caused fuel companies to turn to Ethenol, mostly because it is easy. 

I have a theory, that what passes for 87 octain, is 84 or 85 octain gas loaded up with Ethenol to make it meet 87 Octain standards.  In other words, Oil companies have figured out, that they can take the cheaper Ethenol and stretch gasoline for higher profits.

Not saying the g-ments aren't happy subsidising farms on corn..   But there is more involved then is seen.

[Duke McDukiedook]

But it is heavily subsidized which means free money so you can draw your own conclusions from there.

[TwoTired]

Use of Ethenol is not mandated by the Government. 

[/quote]
Wiki would seem to disagree with you...

"Corn is the top crop for subsidy payments. The Energy Policy Act of 2005 mandates that billions of gallons of ethanol be blended into vehicle fuel each year, guaranteeing demand, but US corn ethanol subsidies are between $5.5 billion and $7.3 billion per year. Producers also benefitted from a federal subsidy of 51 cents per gallon, additional state subsidies, and federal crop subsidies that can bring the total to 85 cents per gallon or more. However, the federal ethanol subsidy expired December 31, 2011.[16] (US corn-ethanol producers were shielded from competition from cheaper Brazilian sugarcane-ethanol by a 54-cent-per-gallon tariff, however that tariff also expired December 31, 2011.[17][18])"

But, before you start dancing in the street about the Corn lobby giving up subsidies without a fight, you might also wish to read:
http://motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2012/01/ethanol-subsidies-not-gone-just-hidden-little-better

There is the Renewable Fuel Standard (RFS) which mandates that at least 37 percent of the 2011-12 corn crop be converted to ethanol and blended with the gasoline that powers our cars…[As a result] the current price of corn on the Chicago Mercantile Exchange is about $6.50 per bushel—almost triple the pre-mandate level.

This results in growing fields that would otherwise make food (making food more plentiful and cheaper), be used to make fuel instead.  A commodity that becomes rare, becomes more valuable to the seller.  Have you noticed food prices going up, even in a bad economy?

I have a theory, that what passes for 87 octain, is 84 or 85 octain gas loaded up with Ethenol to make it meet 87 Octain standards.  In other words, Oil companies have figured out, that they can take the cheaper Ethenol and stretch gasoline for higher profits.

I've no doubt there are many hands in the profit chain industry for ethanol, including the oil companies, if for nothing other than a line entry on the balance sheet labeled "handling fees" (for the governments mandate to blend ethanol into the fuel).

Any way you look at it, the "people" pay for the boondoggle that continues to damage what the people have already paid for, including out SOHC4s, which I assure you no one besides us on the forum care about.  Even within our tiny community, we have a large faction that wishes to throw out the old and replace it with new.  We even have arguments about which pieces to throw out.  If you combine a total vote from each segment, I don't think anything of the original machine survives except the fuel (which must be constantly replenished.   

Is there any part of an SOHC4 that is "sacred" besides the one cam?  (Oh wait that gets replaced/renewed/ungraded, too.) 
Maybe, there is a new thread, here.   

Cheers,

[Teatimetim]

Well that I did not know.. so good info.

I've always been against Ethenol as a substute fuel, now I just have another reason. 

I would suspect that it is more effective to mandate the use of Ethenol in fuel, then it would be to have an actual subsidy.  I doubt they are doing much with Brizilian imports however, that country is 100% ethenol in cars, and their demand is probably keeping Ethenol up in price.  Probably adding to more food crops in the US being turned into Ethenol.

Corn should always be banned from Ethenol, if your going to make it, make it with the most effecient crops possible, yeld of Sugar beats per Acre is 2 to 3 times corn in the production of Ethenol, and there are other crops that the yeilds are 4 and 5 times that as corn.

Thanks TT

[Duke McDukiedook]

Swtichgrass and industrial hemp are better crops to use also but big corn would have nothing to do with that.

Money speaks louder than common sense.

[singedebile]

well put TwoTired, ethanol is garbage from every perspective except for those making money off of it. The pretense of environmental benefits are complete bull.. you wont find any self respecting environmentalist pushing for ethanol, that angle was merely a marketing gimmick.. which unfortunately only has given more fire to fight real environmental initiatives.

[Terry in Australia]

Well it looks like this thread has turned into just another anti-ethanol thread, and fair enough too, no-one seems to have a kind word for it. Trouble is, regardless of what plant or vegetable matter is best to use/will be used, and whether we like it or not, it's here to stay, and more than likely the Ethanol percentage will increase.

So rather than just whine about it, what can we do to make our bikes Ethanol friendly? I was riding the Information Super Highway today looking for parts for my old air head BMW and found out that I can buy an "Ethanol Kit" for older BMW's which replaces the carb floats, float bowls, jets and seals, etc, so old BMW owners can happily ride their favorite bikes into the future without fear of this fuel hurting their bikes and spoiling their fun.

There are still several company's out there (not to mention members right here) who manufacture quality parts to enhance the appearance or performance of our SOHC bikes, which is appreciated by all but the most ardent of technophobes, so all we need is for someone to step up and start producing Ethanol kits for our bikes so that we can enjoy them into the future, like old BMW guys can. Sure, it'll mean replacing some of our original parts with "aftermarket" parts, but the alternative, not being able to ride your bike any more, would be a whole lot less appealing. Cheers, Terry.    

[Bailgang]

Well it looks like this thread has turned into just another anti-ethanol thread, and fair enough too, no-one seems to have a kind word for it. Trouble is, regardless of what plant or vegetable matter is best to use/will be used, and whether we like it or not, it's here to stay, and more than likely the Ethanol percentage will increase.

So rather than just whine about it, what can we do to make our bikes Ethanol friendly? I was riding the Information Super Highway today looking for parts for my old air head BMW and found out that I can buy an "Ethanol Kit" for older BMW's which replaces the carb floats, float bowls, jets and seals, etc, so old BMW owners can happily ride their favorite bikes into the future without fear of this fuel hurting their bikes and spoiling their fun.

There are still several company's out there (not to mention members right here) who manufacture quality parts to enhance the appearance or performance of our SOHC bikes, which is appreciated by all but the most ardent of technophobes, so all we need is for someone to step up and start producing Ethanol kits for our bikes so that we can enjoy them into the future, like old BMW guys can. Sure, it'll mean replacing some of our original parts with "aftermarket" parts, but the alternative, not being able to ride your bike any more, would be a whole lot less appealing. Cheers, Terry.

+1

[70CB750]

I like your approach, Terry.

[cheapride]

I don't know where I could get Marine gas in my area, if anywhere. I add Startron fuel stabilizer to my fuel to counter the harmful effects of ethanol.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=PA

Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it. Unfortunately, the closest ethanol-free gas station to me is nearly 30 miles away.

I am in the same boat. The closest is 20 miles and off my typical riding patterns. Seems like it is mostly Mo and Pa shops, but Liberty sells it in rural areas but not near DC metro.

70CB750,
      I'll be driving South on I 81 soon and wondered if I'll be able to encounter any Liberty Fuel stations on my way through VA. that sell the Good fuel...or is it just Liberty stations around where you are ??

The liberty in New Market Exit 264 right off 81 has ethanol free gas

[phil71]

I wonder if BMW's 'Ethanol' kit does anything to keep the tank liner on their early 2000s GS models. I've seen 2 that had a factory inner liner completely flake off from ethanol gas. total mess... super expensive to fix. Anyone ever see what it does the the tanks on some Ducatis?

[Spanner 1]

Been playing with my ( later type ) carbs lately and have had the bowls on and off several times. Working with Ethanol gas in the tank/bowls....... the carb bowl gaskets immediately 'jumped' out of the small locating recess and were about normal + 10% bigger and softened and proved impossible to relocate to put the bowls back on. Very frustrating IMO 

[Duke McDukiedook]

That's when you need to switch to viton o-rings or get gaskets made of viton.

[CrankyOldGuy]

Just wondering.

 in this neck of the woods regular gas has 10 per cent ethanol and premium has 0 per cent ... intermediate has 5 per cent since it is mixed half and half when it leaves the refinery (Irving in Saint John, NB)

Since Irving supplies the a major portion of the gasoline in New England from their Saint John refinery does this also apply in New England?

Harry O.

[Terry in Australia]

I wonder if BMW's 'Ethanol' kit does anything to keep the tank liner on their early 2000s GS models. I've seen 2 that had a factory inner liner completely flake off from ethanol gas. total mess... super expensive to fix. Anyone ever see what it does the the tanks on some Ducatis?

Sorry Phil, no idea mate, the kits I'm looking at are for 1970's BMW's, and their tanks are unlined steel. When did BMW start lining their tanks? None of my "K" series BMW tanks were lined? Cheers, Terry.

[grcamna2]

I don't know where I could get Marine gas in my area, if anywhere. I add Startron fuel stabilizer to my fuel to counter the harmful effects of ethanol.

http://pure-gas.org/index.jsp?stateprov=PA

Thanks for the link. I bookmarked it. Unfortunately, the closest ethanol-free gas station to me is nearly 30 miles away.

I am in the same boat. The closest is 20 miles and off my typical riding patterns. Seems like it is mostly Mo and Pa shops, but Liberty sells it in rural areas but not near DC metro.

70CB750,
      I'll be driving South on I 81 soon and wondered if I'll be able to encounter any Liberty Fuel stations on my way through VA. that sell the Good fuel...or is it just Liberty stations around where you are ??

The liberty in New Market Exit 264 right off 81 has ethanol free gas

Exit 264 New Market...the Luray Caverns Exit?  OK thanks cheapride  .