Topic: Setting Your Points

[bjbuchanan]

Alright I know there have been many posts here about the subject but I think I can help clear up some issues that guys have had. I attempted to clean my advancer yesterday when all hell broke loose and nothing would work when put back together. I'm attempting to consolidate all of the tips/tricksissues /in to one source to save the headache it took me with endless searching and digging in the search bar.

 Advancer cam issues, point plate issues and utilizing the daichi points. With the jap points I had no issues, no experience with the apparently troublesome chinese ones. This elementary and pointless for some but this thread isn't for you guys. If you have some ideas to make this a good source thread lets hear it, chime in

My setup is a late 72 cb750 engine with stock advancer, japanese daichi points, not chinese along with a Hondaman ignition box setup

The tools I used, very low brow stuff. Use a cheap one LED test light, it lights up with very low current



Lubing up the advancer make sure when reassembling that you orient the cam mark to the mark on the plate. If not your bike will fire ~180 off the mark so no bueno. When reassembling back in place put the advancer male peg in and turn CCW so it that little bit of wiggle/tolerance is eliminated in that direction. The pic below is a circle of the cam marks



When attempting to set the 1-4 gap you want the ear of the spark advancer showing in the window. The mark past t and f, that corner mark where you would leave it for a cam chain adjustment as well. This will be your high point on the advancer cam there. Now is the start of issues with some plates. TTired originally authored this but shim up your points plate. I needed a .05 on the bottom right and this fixed my inability to nail the timing. Before this shim even a .09 points gap couldn't get me on the money.



Loosen the plate, ram the shim home, tighten the adjustment screws back down. Now your plate discrepancy has been handled.

Now remember that after you set your points gaps for both 1-4 and 2-3 you gotta probably swivel the plate to bring in that dead on spot with the timing light. If you are gonna loosen the main plate, you must remember to put your shim in there til it is cinched back down. If not you just reintro'd your discrepancy. Keep using the shim to eliminate it. For those not used to setting the points remember that the light will switch on when you open the points. That is when you stop turning the big nut and see how close you are. The main idea is to see that light switch when you hit that f hash mark if not keep fiddling. The place to place the test lead is on the yellow or blue wire where it attaches to the points it is plenty sufficient.

**You may need slightly different shims, or if you are one of those lucky guys maybe you don't need any of that deal. But insert the shim with the points detached to create slack or attempt to force that shim in there. Don't eyeball it, it isn't gonna work like that. Get the biggest shim in there that will go without ruining the feeler

Hope this helps somebody like me, I know I could have used it about noon yesterday

Brian

[dave500]

also if you have any worn out screw heads get new ones,it saves a lot of frustration and helps with accuracy.

[LesterPiglet]

When I have everything where it should be I scribe marks between the plates and the casing for future reference.
Handy to have this. Thanks BJ.

[dave500]

great detailed explanation,im glad you show the index marks for the cam to body alignment bjbuchanan,,some might get this detail wrong,,thats a daichi advancer you show,the index mark is the logo,,on the "tec" ones its simply a hole and its not exactly squared up,,but if its 180 out its obvious,the cams index mark can be a dot or a scribe not always very well made,like shallow and short etc,look close.

[Xnavylfr]

You said After setting the point gaps you'll need to swivel the back plate!!
Once you move the plate around your POINTS timing will NOT be correct because by moving the back plate you have changed the position at which the points open and close on the cam lobe.It usually takes 2 or 3 times to get the gap and timing spot on because EVERY TIME you move the back plate it moves the opening position of the points!


Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

[bjbuchanan]

You said After setting the point gaps you'll need to swivel the back plate!!
Once you move the plate around your POINTS timing will NOT be correct because by moving the back plate you have changed the position at which the points open and close on the cam lobe.It usually takes 2 or 3 times to get the gap and timing spot on because EVERY TIME you move the back plate it moves the opening position of the points!


Xnavylfr(CHUCK)

**Edited**
I didn't want to get in to that actual procedure of setting the points, that is more a routine thing you can grab from any manual out there. I wanted to highlight issues from production tolerances that can make or break what should be a simple job

Dave I ripped the picture from one of the threads I sourced. I wanted to give guys something to work with because it took me some time to dredge up that clear pic, it will ballpark you.

Thanks for the compliments and inputs

[Dream750]

The 750K advancer in the OP’s first post is made by Hitachi, not Daichi.

The 12/71 Honda published K0 to K2 750 parts book confirms this and note the Hitachi corporate logo.

Click/double click diagrams for largest view:

[dave500]

thanks for clearing that up dream.

[JeffSTL]

I guess I don't understand how you know if you need to shim the plate, what direction you would need to shim or how you would measure such a thing.

[bjbuchanan]

Chances are you will probably need even a small shim. The thing is the measurements are just so small you can't feel it or eyeball it you gotta just insert a .002 and see if it fits

If it does, try the 3, then the 4, I made it all the way up to .005 on that bottom right corner.

 Watch the points carefully when you insert the correct shim, you will see movement, the points will spread about the same amount as that shim. Even with a too small shim you can see the difference

The direction or orientation of the shim is in my opinion related to the direction and angle the 1-4 points open. Think of the bottom right corner as the base of an angle and extend it to the two point faces. Shifting the points respective to that origin will change how open they are

[la ca fe]

Great info, thanks for the detailed description. I will give it a try in the morning.

[750K]

Yes thanks, forgot to thank you bj a week or two ago. Shimming the plate made all the differance between hitting the F mark and not hitting it.

[74750k4]

Nice clear photos. Especially the points cam on the advancer. This could have saved me some time if I had only seen it sooner. I spent a few hours messing around with this after pulling my Dyna S off last night. PITA!
I need to try the shimming too, because the timing just did not seem to line up properly at all. A bit confusing in the shim thickness description. .05 and then, .005, I'm sure it must be one of those two

[74750k4]

wouldn't it be easier to wrap the edge of the points plate?

[TwoTired]

wouldn't it be easier to wrap the edge of the points plate?

No No No.  It has to be rt's way or you're a dumb ass!  Tape and bailing wire are really the classy way to repair things that behave as intended!

For those who insist on strobe timing, I've already mentioned an alternative to shims or stacking feeler gauges, and that is to make the main timing plate fit with zero tolerance in the engine bosses.  Peening or slightly flattening the area of the plate that engages the bosses, essentially makes the plate grow in diameter at the important places to where shimming, duct tape, or other post apocalypse hill billy BS repair schemes are no longer needed.

[74750k4]

Good point...  er  peen. Gotta try that over hillbilly stuff. I always keep a good supply of baling wire, tie wraps, and duct tape on had though, ya' just never know...

[750K]

Come on now TT, if duct tape is good enough for Red Green it's good enough for me. I am Canadian after all.

[Kickstart]

Not sure if this makes me a dumb-ass or a hill billy, but I like to cut off a piece of feeler gauge (from an old feeler gauge set), bend it 90 degrees, and wedge between the post and the plate (with half of the piece of feeler gauge behind the back of the plate - holding it in place)

I think it makes it a little easier to adjust the timing with a strobe light as I can turn the plate and there's less chance of the gauge falling out. 

Is it better to adjust the timing with a strobe light or static?... I always thought it was better to adjust the timing at full advance.

[TwoTired]

Is it better to adjust the timing with a strobe light or static?... I always thought it was better to adjust the timing at full advance.

I've been a techie since the late 60s.  Routinely used a strobe, as a carryover from my car hot rodding days.  So, the bike got that treatment, too, for many years.  Then I followed the shop manual lamp method, and found I can't tell that the bike runs any different on the street whether using the strobe or lamp.  Even the MPG is the same.

I suppose if I was at the track racing for timeslips, I'd look for any possible edge I might get and insist on strobe.  Still need the strobe to check the advance mechanism every 5 years, or so.  These bikes just aren't that demanding of attention, imo, as long as they get restored to near original condition. 

It's like hot rods, the more you modify and "improve" them, it seems the more attention they require to keep them at their peak.  Something about well rounded engineering, I think.  Probably won't get agreement from the many customizers here, though.

[bjbuchanan]

Troll much?^^^

I found with pretty good repeatability that the points set at static with the shim and checked with the strobe both points are about perfect at the advancer. Needed no adjustment so there was no need for some crazy finesse or schemes to keep the shim in place

As for shim size I must have left out a zero in my write up. Not everybody's tolerance is the same could be more or less you gotta find out for yourself

[750K]

I'm in the same boat as bj, with a shim in while static timing I was bang on with the strobe at idle and advance. So there was no need to rotate the plate after static timing was done.

[KRONUS0100]

just read this.  very important info here i did not realize.  i dont need to shim the plate, but i did not know about advance cam markings........even though i did try the thing 180 from where i had it.  will go out and get a "timing" light and try again this afternoon.

[ncstatecamp]

Could someone tell me why I would have to advance/retard (not sure which) my plate all the way to get it to line up? Would this be part of the shim solution?

[Trevor from Warragul]

Another tip - if you have the points plate off the bike, put some white paint on the 1-4, 2-3, F, T, marks, etc, then wipe the excess off with a cloth.  It makes it much easier to see the marks (especially if your eyesight aint what it used to be)

Trevor

[bjbuchanan]

Could someone tell me why I would have to advance/retard (not sure which) my plate all the way to get it to line up? Would this be part of the shim solution?

It "could" be, that was part of the point of creating the thread. I had real issues, like running out of adjustment and still not getting a good gap. Try screwing with the points plate like I said, you don't actually need feelers but they are conveniently small in size. See if with the timing plate shoved upwards you now can actually set the points

[ncstatecamp]

Well the bike sounds and runs fine. I can set 1 and 4 or 2/3 perfect but not both, that would require I turn the plate more space then I got.

[neilc]

lost me,my advancer has a dowl in the back and cannot be put in any way but one,and mine doesn't look like your pic(similar) but not the same,also i have the exact same size opening between my points plate and outer edges(less than .002 at all 3 locations).am i missing something with the dowl and possibly being 180 out?

[martin99]

You are right, the advancer assy can only go in one way. The 180 thing refers to the cam itself - the 'outer ring' you see in the centre. If you remove the springs and withdraw the bob weights (those lever things) from their posts, the cam can be removed by pulling it upward from the centre post, and it is possible to re-install it the wrong way round - or 180 out.

I wish I had stumbled upon this thread earlier, having spent hours at the weekend getting my timing somewhere near right. My biggest problem though was with the daughter plate for 2&3 - anyone got any tips for keeping that steady? Mine had slight up and down movement, enough to make the job a real PITA. New unit from Dave Silver too.

[neilc]

good to know,i just got a used plate assembly from someone on this forum and return my DIACHI one i got from partsnmore,it was a piece of junk,anyway i'll check the assembly i just got but it looks like it has been run before,i am just using it for now to troubleshoot some other issues i have but great post guys

[KRONUS0100]

okay.  issues.  i did it your way mr buchannan (hope i spelt that right) and have comt to an issue
1.  when i turn the motor to point on ignition cam where 1-4 are open widest and set gap, i then hook up a 12 volt test light and roll the motor 1 full revolution. with ignition on, the points dont begin to open until the "T" mark..............i verified this from the "F" mark using a feeler guage........at the "T"  mark is just under ..2" gap.   the issues is the test light comes on way before that and stays on almost all the way to  where 2-3 start to open.and when i rock the timing plate, the light never flickers.  Now i aint smartest in class, but i know this aint right. 

2.  is there any difference between the 750 advancer cam and any of the other SOHC  cams?   i am really starting to wonder if i have the wrong advancer cam.  i will get some pics up when my kids get back with my phone and munchies.

[Kickstart]

okay.  issues.  i did it your way mr buchannan (hope i spelt that right) and have comt to an issue
1.  when i turn the motor to point on ignition cam where 1-4 are open widest and set gap, i then hook up a 12 volt test light and roll the motor 1 full revolution. with ignition on, the points dont begin to open until the "T" mark..............i verified this from the "F" mark using a feeler guage........at the "T"  mark is just under ..2" gap.   the issues is the test light comes on way before that and stays on almost all the way to  where 2-3 start to open.and when i rock the timing plate, the light never flickers.  Now i aint smartest in class, but i know this aint right. 
...

Maybe I read this wrong, but it seems like you're confusing two different adjustments.

The points gap adjustment is to set the dwell (how long the points are open/closed), and adjusting them affects the timing adjustment, but just setting the points gap won't mean your timing is correct.  After you set the gap you need to then adjust the timing by turning the whole plate (for the 1-4 timing)

As noted in the original post "Now remember that after you set your points gaps for both 1-4 and 2-3 you gotta probably swivel the plate to bring in that dead on spot with the timing light. If you are gonna loosen the main plate, you must remember to put your shim in there til it is cinched back down. If not you just reintro'd your discrepancy. Keep using the shim to eliminate it. For those not used to setting the points remember that the light will switch on when you open the points. That is when you stop turning the big nut and see how close you are. The main idea is to see that light switch when you hit that f hash mark if not keep fiddling. The place to place the test lead is on the yellow or blue wire where it attaches to the points it is plenty sufficient."

or maybe you're saying you already tried that but it's still too far off.  In that case, the only thing I can think of is maybe you set the gap wrong  When you say "I turn the motor to point on ignition cam where 1-4 are open widest and set gap" how did you actually do this?  If you're timing is already off you need to actually watch the points opening and closing and adjust the  gap when they are at their most open point.  If you're just turning the motor to the spot where the points are suppose to be at their greatest opening, it might not actually be at that spot and you'd be setting the wrong gap.

Others may know the answer to you second question... I'd be interested to know as well.

[Spanner 1]

When I really, really have insomnia I read a 'how to set your points' thread'.... beaten to death, again and again... all available in the archives/ how to ..zzzzzzz... someone injects some 'new' bull#$%* about points and thinks it's a new idea... priceless...

[ncstatecamp]

Well the bike sounds and runs fine. I can set 1 and 4 or 2/3 perfect but not both, that would require I turn the plate more space then I got.

If that's the case then work the points gap off spec a tad if needed to match up.

rechecked and within the tolerances allowed.

[hymodyne]

My 2/3 timing  mark "F" lines up with the notched point on the crankcase, making the light flicker on and off at this point. The "F" mark on the 1/4 side does not line up when the light flickers on and off. that happens further along, nearer to the  advance (?) twin marks for 1/4.

How do I get the "F" mark to line up with the notch on the crankcase? the points base plate will move when you loosen the 3 screws, but neither the marks on the shaft fitment or the mark on the block are changed by moving the points plate around.

James

[KRONUS0100]

have got it figure out.  my 2-3 moveable plate was in the way of being able to move the back plate after setting 1-4 once they were at widest opening.  i think i also was goin past the point at which this happened a wee bit and wasnt catching the cam in the sweet spot so to speak.
now my next question...............................i have been looking at the maxi dwell for my 750.  considering the cost of genuine honda hitachi points and condensers..................do you think the maxi dwell can be made out of ford points?   i can get ford points all day long from my buddy at the truck shop for 15 bucks. he knows a guy that will actually make me a new backing plate and mount everything so it lines up for a case of beer.  to me this more economical than 100 bucks for a set of genuine points and condensers.

[hymodyne]

My 2/3 timing  mark "F" lines up with the notched point on the crankcase, making the light flicker on and off at this point. The "F" mark on the 1/4 side does not line up when the light flickers on and off. that happens further along, nearer to the  advance (?) twin marks for 1/4.

How do I get the "F" mark to line up with the notch on the crankcase? the points base plate will move when you loosen the 3 screws, but neither the marks on the shaft fitment or the mark on the block are changed by moving the points plate around.

James

Got all of this sorted out at last,
daichi points and condensers I bought were no good. When I put my old set back on, she ran great.  Live and learn.

James