Topic: Need clutch adjust help - was CycleX Clutch Kit

[imamotohead]

Hi All,

Today I installed the CycleX Super Clutch Kit.  It came with 8 friction plates and 6 steel plates.  I only installed 7 of the frictions. I wanted to know if that was right.  The problem I am experiencing is a very loud clunk when I shift into first gear at idle.  I know this is not right.  Once I get rolling It seems to shift fine.  Is the loud clunk going into first a symptom of a mis-adjusted  clutch or something else?  Any ideas are appreciated!

Scott

[imamotohead]

One bump.  Thanks in advance for any advice.   

Scott

[andrewk]

To my knowledge, the cycle x kit comes with an extra friction for bikes that may have different clutch baskets. Pretty sure they market it as an "all in one" kit.

As to the clunk, how's your chain tension? A loose chain will make a pretty decided clunk when you put it in gear

[lucky]

The Cycle-X clutch is prone to sticking. Mine is.
I had to take mine apart once and take it all apart.
The inner friction plates inside the double steel plate get stuck together.
The outer plates are ok.
Mine clutch gets stuck in gear and it is hard to get it to disengage /release.

I have a 1978 too. It was supposed to have a improved clutch basket.

[HondaMan]

Hi All,

Today I installed the CycleX Super Clutch Kit.  It came with 8 friction plates and 6 steel plates.  I only installed 7 of the frictions. I wanted to know if that was right.  The problem I am experiencing is a very loud clunk when I shift into first gear at idle.  I know this is not right.  Once I get rolling It seems to shift fine.  Is the loud clunk going into first a symptom of a mis-adjusted  clutch or something else?  Any ideas are appreciated!

Scott

The 750 tranny is a dry-sump design, which always clunks when engaging 1st from a stop (and any other gear, while moving!). Is yours a 750?

Also, the 7- or 8-plate clutches usually need a little more oiling to those plates. So, here's my thoughts:
1. Did you soak the plates in oil before assembling them? If not, do it over or they will warp real soon.
2. Did you modify the clutch hub? You should add about 4 more oiling holes, and add oil gathering slots as well, as shown in my 750 book. This will increase the oil feed about 15% to 25% (depending on which oil you use).
3. Are you using a low-detergent, high-zinc oil like Bel-Ray? If not, the plates will always drag and the tranny will get foamy oil when hot, making shifting stiff. Since almost all zinc was removed from automotive oils in the last 5 years at EPA edict, this is becoming a massive problem for all wet-clutch bikes these days, including our trusty SOHC4 toys. At the least, consider using a zinc additive like Rislone (or one of the racing versions of it, maybe the Don Garlitts stuff?).

Finally, DON'T use the stuff called "V-Twin Motorcycle Oil", made by several manufacturers these days. This is Harley stuff, and it has LOTS of detergent in it. In less than 50 miles, I could not even shift my 750 after installing that crap...changing back to Castrol 4T with some Rislone fixed it back up.

[Retro Rocket]

Mark, shame on you for using Harley oil in your bike...

Do you cover the clutch mods in your book..? I must get a copy...

[Reganator]

Hi All,

Today I installed the CycleX Super Clutch Kit.  It came with 8 friction plates and 6 steel plates.  I only installed 7 of the frictions. I wanted to know if that was right.  The problem I am experiencing is a very loud clunk when I shift into first gear at idle.  I know this is not right.  Once I get rolling It seems to shift fine.  Is the loud clunk going into first a symptom of a mis-adjusted  clutch or something else?  Any ideas are appreciated!

Scott

The 750 tranny is a dry-sump design, which always clunks when engaging 1st from a stop (and any other gear, while moving!). Is yours a 750?

Also, the 7- or 8-plate clutches usually need a little more oiling to those plates. So, here's my thoughts:
1. Did you soak the plates in oil before assembling them? If not, do it over or they will warp real soon.
2. Did you modify the clutch hub? You should add about 4 more oiling holes, and add oil gathering slots as well, as shown in my 750 book. This will increase the oil feed about 15% to 25% (depending on which oil you use).
3. Are you using a low-detergent, high-zinc oil like Bel-Ray? If not, the plates will always drag and the tranny will get foamy oil when hot, making shifting stiff. Since almost all zinc was removed from automotive oils in the last 5 years at EPA edict, this is becoming a massive problem for all wet-clutch bikes these days, including our trusty SOHC4 toys. At the least, consider using a zinc additive like Rislone (or one of the racing versions of it, maybe the Don Garlitts stuff?).

Finally, DON'T use the stuff called "V-Twin Motorcycle Oil", made by several manufacturers these days. This is Harley stuff, and it has LOTS of detergent in it. In less than 50 miles, I could not even shift my 750 after installing that crap...changing back to Castrol 4T with some Rislone fixed it back up.

Well thank god you said something.  I was just getting ready to switch to a 20W50, but the only one at my local auto parts store says "for v twins" and has a nice little harley silhouette on it.  Come to think of it, I need to look for that zinc additive again.   

[PeWe]

Check the thickness of the plates.
I ordered plates from CycleX and got good plates but not as thin as the 8 plate kits where the plates are thinner to not build the stack height too much.
I use 6+1 fibers/ 6 metals OEM style as this probably is. The outer fiber has wider ears and slanted, the other 6 square-cut cork faces.
I wrote about it here with photos.  http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=120082.0

If you have later clutch where there is one special double metal plate, 8 fibers + 7 metals might be a different thing when the hub of this clutch is bigger. Without the double plate though.

Learn almost everything about CB750 clutches: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=7401.0;nowap

EDIT: wrong link, this is about clutch only... link above has a lot of good info to know anyway....
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=109380.0


About hub hole mod. I drilled 8 extra 2,5mm holes (2 in each quarter), no cones or other additional help for the oil flow. I hope it will work and not slip...

Check this link  for the hub job, good description for ensure oil pressure and clutch hub
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=78643.0

[imamotohead]

Thanks everyone for your replies.  They put me on track.  I don't want to start an oil thread but I was wondering if 20W-50 dino oil provides any shifting advantage to 10W-40.

Thanks!

Scott

[bjbuchanan]

Any advantage of heavier wight oil, i.e. the 20w-50, would be due to hotter conditions. 20w-50 is better suited for that hot summer day kinda stuff whereas 10w-40 is better overall

Without diluting this thread, a usually safe alternative, and easier on the wallet is diesel truck oil, like rotella. Since diesels have different emissions tests and certifications and the like you usually can easily get an oil that works for our bikes. They typically aren't loaded with detergents, tho you won't find zinc additives like the super expensive oil targeted for old stuff. You "don't" necessarily need the zinc additive but you need low to no detergent for good operation

[PeWe]

I'm convinced that our cams need high quantity of zinc and phosphorus after reading about it on Internet. 1000ppm or more.
Next is wet clutch ability (JASO), without anti friction additives that is used in car engines.

Plenty of articles
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/viewall.html
http://www.amsoil.com/techservicesbulletin/motoroil/tsb%20mo-2007-08-08%20flat%20tappet.pdf

Next oil will be this one where they describe the lobe wear. (Engine soon in frame waiting for all other parts....finally)
http://www.castrolmoto.com/en/products/actevo.php
EDIT: I found this thread now and must update. Castrol is not OK for my engine or any CB750. Dragging clutch where the plates will be sticked together over night. Have to rock bike forward backwards a number of times on 2:nd gear to release the clutch.
Next is not possible to find clutch when warm. Additional ZDDP helped a little
- Solution: Changed oil to Red Line 20W-50 which work much better. I'll continue with that oil. I might test Amsoil synthetic Motocycle oil too.

[PeWe]

Update: I'll replace the clutch. Red line oil did not solve the sticking clutch completely. (Oil much better than the Castrol before)
I have a new stack of plates in a plastic bag soaking oil until I mount them on Sunday. The plates are always stucked when bike has been rested for 2 days or so, sometimes even less. The CycleX plates have a softer surface and seems to have more metal flakes in the fibers as well.
New from cruzinimage for really good price. Not much metal flakes in them and not that soft surface.

I hope they will have same good grip as CycleX clutch (no slip 836cc +80 whp), but hopefully easier to start from stopped and no sticking clutch.
I'll update when I have tested them for a week or soo.

[HondaMan]

Mark, shame on you for using Harley oil in your bike...

Do you cover the clutch mods in your book..? I must get a copy...

Yep! And in more detail than in "The Thoughts of Hondaman" that someone created here.

[HondaMan]

Update: I'll replace the clutch. Red line oil did not solve the sticking clutch completely. (Oil much better than the Castrol before)
I have a new stack of plates in a plastic bag soaking oil until I mount them on Sunday. The plates are always stucked when bike has been rested for 2 days or so, sometimes even less. The CycleX plates have a softer surface and seems to have more metal flakes in the fibers as well.
New from cruzinimage for really good price. Not much metal flakes in them and not that soft surface.

I hope they will have same good grip as CycleX clutch (no slip 836cc +80 whp), but hopefully easier to start from stopped and no sticking clutch.
I'll update when I have tested them for a week or soo.

PeWe: measure the thickness of the cork plates, too. They must be .138" or more, or they will slip soon. We have seen some mix-ups with plates from later model bikes (like superbikes) that have the same shape, but are thinner (like 0.136" when new!) and these require you add an extra steel plate to make up the stack height. Or, if you have the clutch with a double-steel plate in the stack, you can remove it, and use an extra cork and steel plate, go get an extra plate in the stack. This was an old dragracer's trick, way back when, obtained by swapping the K3 and later hubs with the K0-1-2 type clutches, etc.

Those "sintered" clutch plates from CycleX resemble the older-style Barnett plates, which acted similarly. If you didn't have REAL good oil, they would stick together badly after the bike sat idle for a while. After enough suffering, they finally burnished their faces enough that they would let go a little easier, though.

[PeWe]

I'll measure them. Now with oil. I have an extra steel plate. It will fit as first plate in the bottom where the fiber press against the alu that might suffer, right? I have always have thoughts about that, fiber plate against the alu hub...

I have drilled 4 extra holes as your earlier thread and the book. Holes only when I was affraid of too good oil flow and less grip when my bike is tuned.
I hope the new cheap plates will not slip. CycleX clutch is a safe card for tuned engine and when perfomance is first, sticking clutch a small problem. The clutch was not sticked today.... I had had bike idling yesterday  for 10 minutes when adjusting the points with dwell meter and got a stable idle. Just back from dyno testing my old "boring" cam Action Fours SS-1. 80whp! Only 3whp less than the high revving megacycle 125-20.
I'll see, its a chance that the CycleX plates will return if I'll get slippery clutch.

EDIT:
Measured the extra CycleX plate I have: 3.5mm (0.1377") thick
cruzinimage_co  plate that has been drained in oil: 3.8-3.9mm (0.1496"-0.1535") depending on how hard I close the calliper.

Is an extra steelplate an option to install?
My clutch is K6 (6 fibers of same type + the outer with wider ears). Not double steel with the deeper hub

[HondaMan]

I'll measure them. Now with oil. I have an extra steel plate. It will fit as first plate in the bottom where the fiber press against the alu that might suffer, right? I have always have thoughts about that, fiber plate against the alu hub...

I have drilled 4 extra holes as your earlier thread and the book. Holes only when I was affraid of too good oil flow and less grip when my bike is tuned.
I hope the new cheap plates will not slip. CycleX clutch is a safe card for tuned engine and when perfomance is first, sticking clutch a small problem. The clutch was not sticked today.... I had had bike idling yesterday  for 10 minutes when adjusting the points with dwell meter and got a stable idle. Just back from dyno testing my old "boring" cam Action Fours SS-1. 80whp! Only 3whp less than the high revving megacycle 125-20.
I'll see, its a chance that the CycleX plates will return if I'll get slippery clutch.

EDIT:
Measured the extra CycleX plate I have: 3.5mm (0.1377") thick
cruzinimage_co  plate that has been drained in oil: 3.8-3.9mm (0.1496"-0.1535") depending on how hard I close the calliper.

Is an extra steelplate an option to install?
My clutch is K6 (6 fibers of same type + the outer with wider ears). Not double steel with the deeper hub

Ah, you have one of THOSE K6 clutches...Honda used the F0 basket with [likely] the K5 hub. I've seen those before, here in Colorado. The K6 bikes are always an interesting puzzle to work on!

The steel-plate-in-first is the way the clutches were made in the K0-K1-K2 types. My own K2 is like that, too (it's one of the first K2, with a K1 engine, came that way from Honda in late 1971). This is one way to adjust the height of the whole stack, and make the grip stronger on the first fiber plate at the same time. On some of the Barnett clutches we used to install (back in the 1970s era) we used one less cork plate and added a steel plate on the top, because the aluminum top plate would sometimes gall if the clutch heat/slip became too much on dragrace bikes. Those clutches received the K0-1-2 hub also, which has a steel insert spline on the mainshaft side and a steel collar around that hub, for more strength. When Honda switched to the aluminum inner and outer plates they changed it to a 7-cork stack to make up the difference for the missing inner steel plate, which is why the stack then alternates plate order into the hub (cork goes in first on those).

The old Barnett plates were almost .150" thick, too. That's why their stacks used fewer (6) plates than the 7-plate versions they replaced, and by 1974 Barnett shipped one extra-thick steel plate with those kits. This would get put in first, then the Honda steel plates were used with their cork plates, leaving one steel plate left over at the end. It's no wonder there is so much confusion today?

In the end, for high-output engines I would suggest using the steel-in-first method, so the hub plate doesn't suffer from the extra heat?

[PeWe]

I changed the clutch and it feels better when I started and tested a little in the garage.
The clutch engage much smoother, not the jerky clutch engagement as my "old" clutch that has run 2600km's. City driving will be easier as the bike has performed back in the days.
No road test yet due to raining and wet boring roads.

The old oiled CycleX disks have same thickness as the dry one I measured, 3.5mm. The new clutch plates are all thicker.
I did not add an extra metal plate when the hub did not get much spline height left for the docking other part.
Let's see if the new cheap clutch will slip or not.

I found a layer of graphite like smear in the hub... from clutch? It has started 1 year ago.
Last photo when changing springs.
Edit:  I added Zinc additive after that. Can it be that looking as graphite smear?
 1/2 bottle of this http://www.edelbrock.com/automotive/mc/chemicals/sb/1074.jpg
I mixed it with the Castrol Mineral oil. I had problems to find neutral when engine was warm and sticking clutch.

I later changed to Red Line Motorcycle oil that have high levels of zinc and phosphorus that made it better.

[PeWe]

Tested the bike this evening. 
Like driving a scooter, very easy to start and handle in low speeds. A good clutch doing the smooth slip it is supposed to do without sticking and jerky movements.
I tested some hard pulls on 2:nd, 3:rd, 4:th and 5:th gear, no sign of slipping. Not all the way, up to max 180kph (112mph)

I use heavy duty springs, the longer model from an EBC 8 disk clutch kit I had before, end of 80's. I tested shorter and thicker springs last year, but they felt too much on-off. Maybe those hard shorter springs should work little bit better with the new smoother disks.

[HondaMan]

Great test, PeWe! good information for everyone here.
Yes, the grey smear you found in the clutch hub was likely to be excess zinc. It is heavy, and the spinning hub does tend to trap some there. This was often seen in engines using Castrol XLR oil, and the older Hondaline oils, back when it was available. both of them had much zinc, and mineral-oil base. You don't see this with "modern" oils here in the USA.

[PeWe]

Hi Mark,
I have found very much very vital information on this forum so it's nice to contribute with my experiences. I use the camera in most of my operations when I afterwards can check how it looked like before and after. I have found photos here that helped me.

Last very good experience is the thread about adjusting points with dwell meter that made everything easier and I got a more stable idle. This together with a smooth clutch make the driving to a real joy. (No problem using dwell with your ign module, no condensors used either).
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php/topic,147444.0.html

[KillerBob]

Hey PeWe...great info.  I've got a 76K with a burned out clutch (I think anyways, I had changed the oil [it was 10W-40 but maybe not right type] and about 40 miles later the bike stopped moving no matter how much adjustment I did...I mean like zero movement and there was a burnt clutch smell in the oil. Anyways, I was looking at different clutch kit options and was thinking of the cycleX ones (for years I had a bit of slipping at high rpm and I hate it) to hopefully have zero slip, but then it sounds like the cruisinimage ones worked well for you.  Any advice?

Thank you,

[PeWe]

Hey PeWe...great info.  I've got a 76K with a burned out clutch (I think anyways, I had changed the oil [it was 10W-40 but maybe not right type] and about 40 miles later the bike stopped moving no matter how much adjustment I did...I mean like zero movement and there was a burnt clutch smell in the oil. Anyways, I was looking at different clutch kit options and was thinking of the cycleX ones (for years I had a bit of slipping at high rpm and I hate it) to hopefully have zero slip, but then it sounds like the cruisinimage ones worked well for you.  Any advice?

Thank you,

Try it.
I had slipping clutch many years ago (when shifting to 5:th gear at +8000rpm full throttle, but I'm sure the reason was the car oil I used, Mobil 1. No good idea for wet clutch.
If you have had a really bad clutch as you describe the metal plates might need to be replaced too.

Check wich clutch you have before order. If you have the outer plate with wider ears or should have when the basket is wider there. Use Heavy duty springs.

[KillerBob]

Thanks I'll tear into it soon and give you an update as to what I've got and go from there.

[KillerBob]

Well finally tore into er. I think it's just the standard clutch even though it's a K6? Had the one angled friction disk. Pretty sure it's all original. Unfortunately when I dumped it the signal cluster part broke where it threads into with the clutch adjuster. I've seen ones on eBay but it's not super sexy anyways. There must be a chopper solution to rig up a clutch handle?

[PeWe]

This is the Bar Switch Assembly ~ Left (Clutch) Side.
Replace it with a new. VintageCB750 has among many
http://www.vintagecb750.com/products/5/electrical/90/handlebar-switches

Here with clutch indicator switch harness included that otherwise must be ordered.
http://www.z1parts.net/product/honda-cb750-dohc-left-control-switch-k2-k6