Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 116569 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #125 on: July 06, 2013, 01:18:16 PM »
Sorry to have a little fun at the expense of your thread Mark. I will behave.
Guess I have been hanging out with a rowdy RC Slope Soaring crowd over on RCGroups too long. The ISR ( Inland Slope Rebels) club threads I follow are a bunch of jokers who enjoy teasing and giving a hard time to one another. A very active central California club that flies coastal and inland slope scale ( power slope scale - PSS - glider designs). They don't let much slide in double entendre humor and segues being rampant within their threads. Entertaining sometimes but the gems and meat of the threads being spread over pages and pages of build threads. Their group build threads might be 30 pages of joking and teasing one another the couple months the fuselages and wing cores and kits are being prepared before the kits are distributed.

I am enjoying your informative thread and am learning a lot from the wisdom you share. I appreciate your documenting the results of your rebuild with us all.

David - RAFster

No bad feelings here: it's just that so many of my posts get saved in places like FAQ, and that stuff should probably just be in a different forum?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #126 on: July 06, 2013, 06:28:34 PM »
Kind of ugly.
Mr. O:
Here's a shot of the old cam chain vs. the new one, pulled toward the side until the slack is taken up. I think it's pretty used up?
;)

Thanks, Mark. How much longitudinal play is there in the links?
Greg
'75 CB750F

"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #127 on: July 06, 2013, 11:03:22 PM »
Kind of ugly.
Mr. O:
Here's a shot of the old cam chain vs. the new one, pulled toward the side until the slack is taken up. I think it's pretty used up?
;)

Thanks, Mark. How much longitudinal play is there in the links?

Even doubled up, it is more than 1 link longer than the new one. That means it is more than 2.5 links' stretch, which is a lot! The tensioner was far enough in that the oil seal was loose around the shaft, so it always made the engine oily behind the cylinders. I had to wash it there almost every month to keep things clean.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #128 on: July 07, 2013, 10:19:13 AM »
Even doubled up, it is more than 1 link longer than the new one. That means it is more than 2.5 links' stretch, which is a lot! The tensioner was far enough in that the oil seal was loose around the shaft, so it always made the engine oily behind the cylinders. I had to wash it there almost every month to keep things clean.

That is a lot, that would mean a bunch of pin wear and would have some effect on valve timing.  I'll be surprised if mine has elongated that much, but I have no way of knowing until I look at it.  The tensioner isn't in as far as you've described yours, though.  I am debating with myself about pulling the motor at 150K to have a look at the valve train.  That is still 6500 miles away, a little over a year at current mileage accumulation.  I'll probably do it.  I haven't been in there since 2002 at 82,000 miles when I did the cam tower seals.  That was 61,000 miles ago.  I've seen many V8 and Toyota 22R timing chains with a lot of elongation at 130-150K.  I've done a few 22R chain and gear set replacements, both double row and later single row chains, and they get pretty floppy.

Out of curiosity, how were the tappet clearances holding on yours before you tore it down?
Greg
'75 CB750F

"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #129 on: July 07, 2013, 11:26:20 AM »
Even doubled up, it is more than 1 link longer than the new one. That means it is more than 2.5 links' stretch, which is a lot! The tensioner was far enough in that the oil seal was loose around the shaft, so it always made the engine oily behind the cylinders. I had to wash it there almost every month to keep things clean.

That is a lot, that would mean a bunch of pin wear and would have some effect on valve timing.  I'll be surprised if mine has elongated that much, but I have no way of knowing until I look at it.  The tensioner isn't in as far as you've described yours, though.  I am debating with myself about pulling the motor at 150K to have a look at the valve train.  That is still 6500 miles away, a little over a year at current mileage accumulation.  I'll probably do it.  I haven't been in there since 2002 at 82,000 miles when I did the cam tower seals.  That was 61,000 miles ago.  I've seen many V8 and Toyota 22R timing chains with a lot of elongation at 130-150K.  I've done a few 22R chain and gear set replacements, both double row and later single row chains, and they get pretty floppy.

Out of curiosity, how were the tappet clearances holding on yours before you tore it down?


Once it wore through the hardening on the ends, it became more frequent to find them loose. This started happening around 100k miles or so. You can see in the pix of the valves earlier: there is a little circular area in the center of the tip that has become dished and shiny. I'd estimate it to be about .002" deep on the worst ones.

I'm having the longer K1-style exhaust valve guides installed again this time around. They are 50% longer than the 'regular' ones, and I am not going to run a high-lift cam, so they will fit well and will cool the valves much better. I think that, plus the stellite valves (if my OEM ones survive their refacing/hardening) should put me back on the pavement for another 100k.

I looked at the seal in the tensioner: it is cracked, likely due to age. I suppose that's where much of the leak happened?

Mine's cam sprocket is the old 'holey' type from the K0-K1 era. These were hardened: the solid style were not, starting around 3/72 builds of the K2. The "F" bikes in 1975 got the 'holey' ones again, and were also hard. This does a lot for their life. The only real shortcoming in the later engines in this area was/is the shorter slipper tensioner where the tops are "cut off" in appearance. Today, more often than not, when you order a slipper tensioner you get the 'short' one because it will fit all the engines: but if you can find a long one, it lasts almost twice as long. In the post-1975 head there is a casting edge in the way of using the longer ones: you have to file it away to slide the new tensioner in. In the F2/3 heads, it will not fit at all, though, because the tunnel is shorter on the front side: there, you must use the short slipper.

The cam chains with the "410" middle number have now superceded the older "283" number (which came from the CB350 twin engines). That's not a bad thing: the pins in the "410" chain are slightly larger diameter, which bodes well for future [lack of] wear!
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline ofreen

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #130 on: July 07, 2013, 11:35:41 AM »
Thanks again.  When I get around to doing mine, I'll post what I find. It may be awhile yet, though.  One thing, tappet clearances on my engine are staying very stable.  I check them every 3000 miles, and I run 2 thou on the intake and 3 on the exhaust.
Greg
'75 CB750F

"I would rather have questions I cannot answer than answers I cannot question." - Dr. Wei-Hock Soon

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #131 on: July 07, 2013, 08:00:55 PM »
...
My old ones have about 80K miles on them, having been replaced in 1980. The teeth on the clutch drive sprocket are beginning to show "hooks" on the pulled side. I have 3 others, but they are all K4/F1/K7 sprockets, won't fit!

I have a K0 (K1?) clutch drive sprocket if you want it.  I bought it thinking the K0's were better, planning to use it on my F0, but then realized the spline part isn't as long as mine and doesn't have that grove in it for the clip.

I've pulled out the needle bearings, so I saved you the trouble of doing that (assuming you were planning on replacing those anyway).

Let me know.

BTW, how do the teeth look on the crank... I assume those would be just as bad, right?
- Chris
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #132 on: July 07, 2013, 10:55:21 PM »
...
My old ones have about 80K miles on them, having been replaced in 1980. The teeth on the clutch drive sprocket are beginning to show "hooks" on the pulled side. I have 3 others, but they are all K4/F1/K7 sprockets, won't fit!

I have a K0 (K1?) clutch drive sprocket if you want it.  I bought it thinking the K0's were better, planning to use it on my F0, but then realized the spline part isn't as long as mine and doesn't have that grove in it for the clip.

I've pulled out the needle bearings, so I saved you the trouble of doing that (assuming you were planning on replacing those anyway).

Let me know.

BTW, how do the teeth look on the crank... I assume those would be just as bad, right?


Thanks for the offer: I buttoned up the bottom end last night, though. The teeth on the crank match the ones on the spline drive, so I guess I'll just go with that for now: the chain will settle in about 1000 miles from now.

I'm going to be concentrating on finding superior oils after the break-in, since our oils today are so miserable for these engines. I am 100% positive that the long life I've received from this gearbox is due to the Castrol XLR mineral oils of the past. I started having gearbox issues only after this oil went away, around 1998 or so. I went thru cancer in 2001, didn't ride again until 2005, so the in-between hiatus has sort of delayed my testing for the most part.

First thing on the docket: Rislone. I have been using it in my cars for about 2 months, and the improvement is dramatic. The oil PSI is almost 15% higher with the same (Valvoline) oils as before (I have 4 cars, 1 straight Six, one V-6, one V-8 small block, one V-8 big block, not counting the motorhome here), the MPG is now 12% better in the straight 6 (haven't checked the others yet) that I drive every day. The Rislone folks tell me it is OK with wet clutches. Mostly, it contains a load of zinc, which is vital for these engines: most oils after 2002 have almost no zinc, compared to the last century (thank you, EPA... ). Without it, the wet clutch drags and the cast iron gearbox bearings and steel-on-steel splines gain a lot of friction. This makes shifting very stiff, which these bikes NEVER had before the oils changed. I am seeing engines coming in now with the shifter drum pin-retainer discs loose, which is causing incomplete and mis-synched shifting. This looseness is coming from the high drag during the shift, makes the rider pull-push the shifter harder, which loosens the screw on the disc.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline kghost

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #133 on: July 08, 2013, 12:26:59 AM »
Really fascinating stuff Mark. I find myself reading it 2 and 3 times before I can sort of form a mental image. Thanks for all your hard work posting.
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Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #134 on: July 08, 2013, 05:16:51 AM »
Mark, you mention using Rislone.  Not to turn this into an oil thread ::)), but there are several products that this brand has on the market - what specifically are you referring to?

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #135 on: July 08, 2013, 10:01:42 AM »
As HondanutRider said, "not to turn this into an oil thread" but...
Once you've run the engine in you may want to try this SAE 20W-60 synthetic wet-clutch oil: Shell Advance* Racing Engine Oil 4T 20W-60. At high temperatures the oils viscosity is thicker than that of a 20W-50 and that should do well in a high-mileage engine.

Shell Lubes is a competitor of mine, but sometimes you have to compliment those who deserve it.
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #136 on: July 08, 2013, 11:49:30 AM »
As HondanutRider said, "not to turn this into an oil thread" but...
Once you've run the engine in you may want to try this SAE 20W-60 synthetic wet-clutch oil: Shell Advance* Racing Engine Oil 4T 20W-60. At high temperatures the oils viscosity is thicker than that of a 20W-50 and that should do well in a high-mileage engine.

Shell Lubes is a competitor of mine, but sometimes you have to compliment those who deserve it.
I don't see any distributor for that oil in the USA.
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Offline toytuff

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #137 on: July 08, 2013, 11:58:13 AM »
Fascinating stuff right here. Way beyond my capabilities but fascinating none the less.

Great thread.

tt

Offline 01Thomas

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #138 on: July 08, 2013, 12:20:51 PM »
As HondanutRider said, "not to turn this into an oil thread" but...
Once you've run the engine in you may want to try this SAE 20W-60 synthetic wet-clutch oil: Shell Advance* Racing Engine Oil 4T 20W-60. At high temperatures the oils viscosity is thicker than that of a 20W-50 and that should do well in a high-mileage engine.

Shell Lubes is a competitor of mine, but sometimes you have to compliment those who deserve it.
I don't see any distributor for that oil in the USA.

You found the data sheets on the net? I could ship some over for you... Or go knocking on Shell's door and say to them: " I demand..." Both options are not without their risks.
1971 Honda CB750 Four K1 [Engine: CB750E-1113521 / Frame: CB750-1113838]
1977 Seeley Honda CB750F (F1) [Engine: CB750E-2551214 / Frame No: SH7-655F]

'96 Yamaha YZF750SP & '81 Moto Guzzi SP1000 & '80 Moto Guzzi 850 LeMans II & '82 Bimota KB-3 [Frame No 49] & '66 Ducati 50 SL/1 & '53 Miele K-50 & '38 Miele 98

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #139 on: July 08, 2013, 10:42:22 PM »
At high temperatures the oils viscosity is thicker than that of a 20W-50 and that should do well in a high-mileage engine.

Well, nuts, I missed that one: I don't have the hi-mileage engine any more. It probably would work, if the detergent isn't too high: most racing stuff is lower suds, for good reason.

Tonight I got the covers back on, still waiting for the head. :(

Maybe I'll go to work on the chassis in the meantime...
« Last Edit: July 09, 2013, 10:04:21 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline kstoyman

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #140 on: July 08, 2013, 11:12:44 PM »
Just started going over my 750K8 that has been sleeping in the garage for over 22 years. This thread is perfect.

Thank you Sensei!!!
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Offline 754

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #141 on: July 09, 2013, 08:26:24 AM »
So I was not aware of holey sprockets on KO. So does this mean there are 2 types, or 3?
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #142 on: July 09, 2013, 10:10:30 PM »
So I was not aware of holey sprockets on KO. So does this mean there are 2 types, or 3?

There's the "replacement" sprocket for the early sandcast motors, some of which had soft, non-holey ones. These new parts were holey and hard, but not many got installed as Honda offered only 3 hours shop labor for the warranty work (boy, that's fast!). If one was apart, we'd install it, but that's about all.

The diecast K0 all had the holey ones, at least all that I've seen. The holes filled themselves in during the K3, grew back again in the F0 (and a few lucky K6-ers!). The later parts were similar to the K0/K1/K2 type, but the holes have a slightly different appearance to them. I think they are actually bigger, but never had 2 at once to measure directly side-by-side? The idea, I'm sure, was to let the engine rev up faster, and it actually does make some difference in the throttle response - although you'd have to be intimate with the engine(s) to notice it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #143 on: July 10, 2013, 04:57:32 AM »
Mark, you mention using Rislone.  Not to turn this into an oil thread ::)), but there are several products that this brand has on the market - what specifically are you referring to?

...Still don't know which product of Rislone you are using? ???

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #145 on: July 10, 2013, 11:56:59 AM »
Mark, you mention using Rislone.  Not to turn this into an oil thread ::)), but there are several products that this brand has on the market - what specifically are you referring to?

...Still don't know which product of Rislone you are using? ???

Yeah, sorry: I haven't been home from work before midnight since I wrote that post. I will take a picture of it and post it here, maybe tonight (I get to go home around 8 PM today!).
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #146 on: July 10, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »
I'm 99% sure he meant this http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/22-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment-4401

Yep, that's the stuff! Looks just like the picture. In my car (240k miles on my old straight-6 Ford), the morning starts are almost as soon as I turn the key, about a week after I put this stuff in. It has NEVER been like that in the 20+ years I've owned it, always took a couple seconds of cranking or 2 tries before it would idle up.  :)

So, next it's going into my Explorer, then my trusty '67 fastback Ford. And my 750.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondanutRider

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #147 on: July 10, 2013, 02:34:27 PM »
Thanks for the tip and specific reference for the Rislone product.  I'll have to look for that one and try adding it for my Austin Healey 3000, which probably could use the zinc assistance.  Maybe also would be good for the CB350 Four,

Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #148 on: July 11, 2013, 11:14:52 AM »
For my '72 MG, which uses call for 20W50, I buy (when I can find it) Kendall Liquid Titanium, which has extra zinc in it (20W50 only, not the lighter weights). Otherwise I buy Valvoline Racing 20W50 dino oil, which also has the extra ZDDP.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

Current: '76 CB750F. Previous:  '75 CB550F, 2007 Yamaha Vino 125 Scooter, '75 Harley FXE Superglide, '77 GL1000, '77 CB550k, '68 Suzuki K10 80, '68 Yamaha YR2, '69 BMW R69S, '71 Honda SL175, '02 Royal Enfield Bullet 500, '89 Yamaha FJ1200

Offline 70CB750

  • Labor omnia vincit improbus.
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  • Northern Virginia
Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2013, 10:40:46 AM »
I'm 99% sure he meant this http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/22-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment-4401

Yep, that's the stuff! Looks just like the picture. In my car (240k miles on my old straight-6 Ford), the morning starts are almost as soon as I turn the key, about a week after I put this stuff in. It has NEVER been like that in the 20+ years I've owned it, always took a couple seconds of cranking or 2 tries before it would idle up.  :)

So, next it's going into my Explorer, then my trusty '67 fastback Ford. And my 750.

:) I was wondering what straight 6 you got.  I dont think anybody but Jeep carried one over the year 2000.
Prokop
_______________
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I love it when parts come together.

Dorothy - my CB750
CB750K3F - The Red
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2006 KLR650