Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 114287 times)

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Offline Pecantree

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #100 on: June 29, 2013, 09:17:20 pm »
Mark
Question about this picture from one of your previous posts.

Will you clean up the flash in the pass thru's?
How much difference does  it make?
I know you mention this in your book.
Thanks
Steve
http://www.harvestclassic.org/

"The suspect had experienced a ballistic interlude earlier in the evening" Miss Pao said, "Regrettably not filmed, and relived himself of excess velocity by means of an ablative technique."         ......    ?    ........         "She say you have road rash."

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #101 on: June 29, 2013, 10:08:35 pm »
Mark
Question about this picture from one of your previous posts.

Will you clean up the flash in the pass thru's?
How much difference does  it make?
I know you mention this in your book.
Thanks
Steve

I use needle files and a lack of caffeine. :D

This one shows how a diecast K0 or a K1 looks, de-flashed (my K2 came with a leftover K1 engine). The later castings did not have those ridges down inside where the clamshell halves of the molds met: they were more meticulously made, and also produced less flash. This one, when I first did it, only had holes about 1/8" thru those center square-looking passages! It was all flash, about 0.5mm thick, and could be punched thru with a small screwdriver (which was how I started on it, that fine winter's night in 1972).

The K4 molds were the best in this regard, with only a small mismatch between front and back (less than the ridges you can see here). They looked to be wearing out a little and adding flash in again by the K5. The F0 molds were the best of all on the 1975 bikes.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline kghost

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #102 on: June 29, 2013, 10:14:44 pm »
Could a simple mold be made for the inter cylinder rubbers?
Stranger in a strange land

Offline 754

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #103 on: June 29, 2013, 11:52:17 pm »
 I run plug wires thru them holes..it looks killer..
« Last Edit: June 29, 2013, 11:55:43 pm by 754 »
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My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

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Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline kghost

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #104 on: June 30, 2013, 12:22:01 am »
I run plug wires thru them holes..it looks killer..

Right....because the fueling system wasn't cool enough on its own on that thing?

Lol nice bike
Stranger in a strange land

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #105 on: June 30, 2013, 11:40:33 pm »
Could a simple mold be made for the inter cylinder rubbers?

No doubt! Can you make a mold?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #106 on: June 30, 2013, 11:42:22 pm »
I run plug wires thru them holes..it looks killer..


That gives me an idea!
...I wonder if fuel line would fit? You could start it, then stretch it to make it smaller, pull it thru, and then cut it off to fit?
Hmm...
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2013, 04:20:23 am »
I run plug wires thru them holes..it looks killer..


That gives me an idea!
...I wonder if fuel line would fit? You could start it, then stretch it to make it smaller, pull it thru, and then cut it off to fit?
Hmm...
Vac line would be easier as it isn't reinforced like many of the fuel lines have braided reinforcement.
Klaus Studios could make them if given a good NOS part, or old part with proper measurements for the replacement.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline 754

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2013, 08:30:59 am »
I love the stock fuel line.. Dont need clamps pulls off with the fingers when taking tank off.. Good idea to take a 18 inch piece that fits stock bung. When someone runs outta gas. Pull a line, put the piece on, and fill beer or soda container to put in other bike.
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2013, 10:32:39 pm »
Tranny day today! (Pix at 11 PM - tomorrow...)
I've been jealous for years of the easy-to-find Neutral (when hot) of the mid-1973 K3 and later 750. This was due to a 'delta change' Honda did with the shift drum (which I'll show in those pix...) that made the insertion point for the Neutral to be 0.5mm wider, and the opposite side of the fork pin's channel was reshaped from a sharp "U to a more "omega" shape. This allowed the shift pin to accelerate more slowly into and out of the Neutral Zone (yeah, I'm a Space Cadet...the back of my car even shows my Starfleet Academy sticker, still!) and helps the fork idle there. This gives the 1-2 shift a notchy feeling, much slower gear-to-gear than the earlier drums did, but I don't street race anymore, so that's OK with me.

And, I found a K4 shift drum with only 17k miles on it in pristine condition! That was Step 1. Can't wait to try it out with a hot engine.  :)

Step 2 was to find out where the other 3 Neutrals were coming from. Turns out, the inner countershaft bearing has almost .003" clearance, guess it's done. This lets the whole countershaft tilt. To help that tilt, the outer one has .0022" clearance, so between them, it's no wonder it started rounding the dogs on C5. But, I have a better C2 and C5 pair from another K1 tranny, complete with the bronze inner bearings (which went away and became cast iron in the K3, losing HP in the trade), so those went onto the c'shaft.

Next was the mainshaft. The M4 gear also has a bronze bearing, had to find a better one for that, too. It came in the form of an early K3 shaft I have with the bronze inner bearing and the dual thrust washers on either side: this will be an upgrade, if a slight .02mm misalignment away from the clutch, because my C4 was the old K0 style with only a shim washer against the snap ring on the right side, and nothing between it and the M1 gear. This type always makes C4 drag a little near redline speeds, and the M1 shows it on the side nearest this gear. This newer arrangement inserts a grooved thrust washer on both sides of the C4, so the side-load friction should be lower. The M2 was also worn in the bronze ID, my K3 shaft had a good one of those, too.

Overall, I am stunned by how little wear is actually in the box. The only things that show visible wear (i.e., didn't have to use calipers, mic, and ID bore gages to find it) was the grooves in the shift drum. The steep ramps up to the Neutral peak are very shiny and the chamfer at the tops of the groove on the wear side are gone, indicating there is almost .003"+ wear there. In the new K4 drum, these chamfers are almost .008" instead of the older .003" size, which lets more oil slip into the grooves (even if it does reduce the depth of contact about .008" in the process). This is one big reason the later gearboxes shifted so much more smoothly when hot.

So, I hope to now combine the more efficient K0-K2 bronze bearings with the slicker drum and new ball bearings, all to make for a happier ride!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline Wiggy_NZ

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #110 on: July 02, 2013, 01:45:03 am »
Ducati have those little rubber bits between and sometimes it has been know that the Duc has had a little accident and has left a woopsy on the garage floor under it.  They are commonly known as duc droppings in the Ducati community. Ducati owners don't worry about them ;)

Regards Brendan
Never too old to enjoy the ride
Ducati S4R, Honda TLR200 and Honda CB 750 four K5

Offline David B

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #111 on: July 02, 2013, 08:58:36 am »
As always, very informative.  I always look forward to your posts and info, HondaMan!

Coincidentally, they just had tranny day last weekend in NYC although it's officially called the gay pride parade.

Sorry, couldn't resist.....
DB

Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #112 on: July 02, 2013, 10:24:53 am »
As always, very informative.  I always look forward to your posts and info, HondaMan!

Coincidentally, they just had tranny day last weekend in NYC although it's officially called the gay pride parade.

Sorry, couldn't resist.....


LOL! People near me looking at me like I am crazy
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Offline Pecantree

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #113 on: July 02, 2013, 03:40:31 pm »
Regarding the fin rubbers.
There is a product out from England called Sugru.
I've used it to repair phone charging cords.
Make custom grips on tiny files.
And make new rubber for the light bulb plugs on the back of the clocks.
This forum is full of folks that make things and I think this stuff might be of use.
https://sugru.com/
I'm out or I'd try some on my bike fins. Don't know how it would hold up to the heat.
I'm not associated with Sugru at all, other than making stuff with it.
Now back to Marks rebuild! ;)

http://www.harvestclassic.org/

"The suspect had experienced a ballistic interlude earlier in the evening" Miss Pao said, "Regrettably not filmed, and relived himself of excess velocity by means of an ablative technique."         ......    ?    ........         "She say you have road rash."

Offline MOONDOGNYC

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #114 on: July 02, 2013, 06:19:55 pm »
FARster122s.... yikes man... why did you have to post those pictures?   argh

That reminds me. I got proposition around 18 years ago late one night when I was stopped at a traffic light in the city, riding back after a night of studying.  She (he?) offered very reasonable pricing, but I passed -  I was only a few blocks away from my girlfriend's apartment so I had a much better deal waiting for me :)

Hmmm... Are you saying that if your girl lived further away (s)he had a shot ?  heheee
1977 CB750F


Offline Tews19

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #115 on: July 02, 2013, 07:22:25 pm »
FARster122s.... yikes man... why did you have to post those pictures?   argh

That reminds me. I got proposition around 18 years ago late one night when I was stopped at a traffic light in the city, riding back after a night of studying.  She (he?) offered very reasonable pricing, but I passed -  I was only a few blocks away from my girlfriend's apartment so I had a much better deal waiting for me :)

Hmmm... Are you saying that if your girl lived further away (s)he had a shot ?  heheee


LOL. Man
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1970 Honda CB750 survivor.

Offline Kickstart

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #116 on: July 02, 2013, 08:55:25 pm »
Regarding the fin rubbers.
There is a product out from England called Sugru.
I've used it to repair phone charging cords.
Make custom grips on tiny files.
And make new rubber for the light bulb plugs on the back of the clocks.
This forum is full of folks that make things and I think this stuff might be of use.
https://sugru.com/
I'm out or I'd try some on my bike fins. Don't know how it would hold up to the heat.
I'm not associated with Sugru at all, other than making stuff with it.
Now back to Marks rebuild! ;)

That's pretty cool stuff.  I wonder how well it holds up over time.  I could use some replacement grommets where my gauges connect to the headlight/turn signal bracket (on my F).

I'll have to try it out.

- Chris
75' CB750F Orange flake (rider)
75' CB750F Blue (Project)
75' CB750F Painted black (Project)
No Reserve Racing #171 AHRMA

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #117 on: July 03, 2013, 11:31:07 pm »
OK, so it will be "gearbox" from now on...  :P

Since this is my own rebuild and no one else will suffer if something goes awry, I decided to experiment (again) with mine. There is so little wear on the ID of the gears themselves, except for C4 (it is worn .0014" on the bore and I have a good one handy), and because I am fortunate enough to have the pull-cut C3-4-5 set that Honda did with the K1 Old Factory bikes (aka back-cut dogs), and my shift forks show about .024mm to .04mm wear, and my ball bearings were quite loose....I've decided to only replace the shift forks, the [worn] drum, and the ball bearings. And C4.

The whole thing now shifts so smoothly by hand that it feels like one of the Yoshimura 6-speed boxes, which had pretty narrow gears that slid sideways easily for lack of shaft contact (and wore quickly, too), sort of like the CB400F gearboxes. Today I found some NAACHI Japanese bearings that fit nicely: they are just .0005" wider (thicker) than the old OEM bearings, so when I set in the countershaft bearing tomorrow we'll see if that is too much or not. Probably not...

The old ball bearings have more than .002" clearance in them, after the oil was cleaned out. That's a lot! This lets the whole shaft tilt when the shifting torque is being applied by the forks, and lets the gears 'run away' a little bit from the forks as well. It is these little things that make the gearboxes gamey.

Found my card reader! Here's the pic of the 3 different shifter drums: one K4 slightly used, 1NOS K1, one K1 very used (mine), left-to-right. You can see the difference in the #1 shifting groove where it is an omega shape instead of a sharp "U", and the pushing groove is wider. This is how the fabled improvement in the Neutral Hunt came about. The grooves are all shallower in contact, because the chamfers along their top edges are wider. This results in better oil capture into the groove, but increases the wear a little because about 20% of the contact area with the pin is above the chamfers.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 11:29:16 am by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #118 on: July 04, 2013, 01:33:04 am »
Sorry to have a little fun at the expense of your thread Mark. I will behave.
Guess I have been hanging out with a rowdy RC Slope Soaring crowd over on RCGroups too long. The ISR ( Inland Slope Rebels) club threads I follow are a bunch of jokers who enjoy teasing and giving a hard time to one another. A very active central California club that flies coastal and inland slope scale ( power slope scale - PSS - glider designs). They don't let much slide in double entendre humor and segues being rampant within their threads. Entertaining sometimes but the gems and meat of the threads being spread over pages and pages of build threads. Their group build threads might be 30 pages of joking and teasing one another the couple months the fuselages and wing cores and kits are being prepared before the kits are distributed.

I am enjoying your informative thread and am learning a lot from the wisdom you share. I appreciate your documenting the results of your rebuild with us all.

David - RAFster
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #119 on: July 06, 2013, 11:34:06 am »
The C4 bearing is pretty worn, lets the gear tilt too much. That's where my 3-N-4 spare neutral was!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #120 on: July 06, 2013, 11:37:57 am »
The Old Factory bikes had a lot of hand-attention. One of those things was in the gearboxes: mine is an example of where someone thought the dogs were not right, so he back-cut them on this (and another) gear for reliability.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #121 on: July 06, 2013, 11:40:10 am »
Starting late in the K3, several of the thrust spacers were replaced with half-as-thick thrust washers with oil grooves on their sides. This was likely done to reduce the friction as they 'lost' the bronze bearings inserts inside several gears, replacing them with cast-iron instead.

On the mainshaft, the small gear at the left side (M5 drive) has a thrust washer and a spacer, both. On the K0-K3 engines (with bronze inserts in several of the gears) this shim is sized to push the bearing 0.080" to 0.160" off the end of the shaft. This causes the retainer ring to set directly into the engine cases when the assembly is dropped in place, and prevents too much shaft lateral play, which will wear the 'C' shift fork and possibly cause the ends of the gear dogs to 'tick' against each other.
There is no 'spec' about this, probably because the cases are not that accurately cast. If your gear shaft setup is "lost" or you're swapping in new gears, adjust the thickness of the last shim on the right (in this picture) so the pressed-on bearing drops precisely in place on the retainer.

In the later gearboxes, the thick thrust washer is replaced with 2 half-thick stamped lubricating-type thrust washers. I have seen these 2 side-by-side, and also one on each side of the gears where they appear. I think (never verified) this was Honda's way of making the gear teeth mate more directly, as with the older style 1-piece thrust washer, the gears often did not mesh 100% with each other, and were as much as 1mm to one side or another from production tolerances.

In mine now, I used the split thrust washers to shim both the M3 and the M5 gears to mate 100% with their friends on the other shaft. When you do this, study the snapring (where installed) and make SURE the rounded side of the ring goes toward the (moving) thrust washers. If not, your gearbox can end up like Gammaflat's K6, where the marks on the thrust washer snagged and opened the ring, moving it over enough that the gear dogs tapped the next gear over.
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:36:03 pm by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #122 on: July 06, 2013, 11:55:40 am »
The Old Factory bikes had a lot of hand-attention. One of those things was in the gearboxes: mine is an example of where someone thought the dogs were not right, so he back-cut them on this (and another) gear for reliability.

Thanks for the post this is very cool.  I can see the slight tapper on the k1 gear.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #123 on: July 06, 2013, 01:08:29 pm »
Kind of ugly.
Mr. O:
Here's a shot of the old cam chain vs. the new one, pulled toward the side until the slack is taken up. I think it's pretty used up?
;)
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:11:52 pm by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #124 on: July 06, 2013, 01:15:55 pm »
Here's the new (and old) Primary Chains. It looks line Honda is marking the master links (actually, just the last link staked). This is nice, as in the  future it will help ensure they stay oriented if they have to come out for another in-engine excursion! I usually install any of the marked chains toward the right side of the engine (because I'm a southpaw, and the engine is upside-down, so to weirdos like me, it makes sense...).
 :)

My old ones have about 80K miles on them, having been replaced in 1980. The teeth on the clutch drive sprocket are beginning to show "hooks" on the pulled side. I have 3 others, but they are all K4/F1/K7 sprockets, won't fit!
« Last Edit: July 06, 2013, 01:38:13 pm by HondaMan »
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