Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 116577 times)

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2013, 11:55:43 PM »
I'm 99% sure he meant this http://barsproducts.com/catalog/view/22-engine-oil-supplement-with-zinc-treatment-4401

Yep, that's the stuff! Looks just like the picture. In my car (240k miles on my old straight-6 Ford), the morning starts are almost as soon as I turn the key, about a week after I put this stuff in. It has NEVER been like that in the 20+ years I've owned it, always took a couple seconds of cranking or 2 tries before it would idle up.  :)

So, next it's going into my Explorer, then my trusty '67 fastback Ford. And my 750.

:) I was wondering what straight 6 you got.  I dont think anybody but Jeep carried one over the year 2000.

My daily driver is a 1979 Ford Fairmont wagon. Best car I've ever owned! It's got nearly 280k on it now. It has never let me down, nor disappointed me, and has only broken when I neglected it too long (like belts and hoses). If this one wears out, I want another just like it.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

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Offline Bankerdanny

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2013, 09:01:06 AM »
I had that same engine in the '77 Granada sedan that I drove for a while when I was in college.
"The problem with quotes on the Internet is that you never know if they're true" - Abraham Lincoln

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Offline bjatwood

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #152 on: July 19, 2013, 10:26:43 AM »
Good reading Mark!
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Offline RRRToolSolutions

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #153 on: July 19, 2013, 02:33:41 PM »
Hi Mark, Gordon here. Gosh, it's been a long time. I wish I had seen this thread earlier as I have some items sitting in bins that I would have sent you. Today is the first time I've spent much time looking around. This oil topic felt like a good place to say hello and give some input about an oil that I have personally found to be superior to anything else I've ever used in motorcycles.

You'll remember that I've got several old bikes and some new ones. In particular, my KZ900, Kaw GPZ750E Turbo, and my ST1300 all have what I'll describe as "notchy" shifting - the gear changes are noisy giving both the sound and feel of mechanical engagement moreso than dozens of other bikes I've ridden/owned. I've used Valvoline petroleum, Mobile-1 4T, Suzuki Synthetic, and no discernable noise or feel between those oils were detected. One oil that I had used in the KZ900 years ago came to mind and I decided to find and try it again - Motul 7100 10-40 JASO SPEC motorcycle specific oil. Wow, I don't know how I'd missed that one - immediately upon changing the KZ900's oil back to the Motul 7100, the transmission shifting was again Swiss watch-like. I immediately ordered a case and changed the Kaw Turbo and the ST1300. This oil is magic, don't know how or why, but gear shifts are 10 times better than without.

Fast-forward to today, I bought a new 2013 Suzuki DR650 dual sport bike in March for a coming TAT (Trans-American Trail) ride that 3 of us plan for late Fall or next year. We all bought 650's and decided we needed time to practice and make the mods to the bikes. This is a large single with a 1,500 rpm idle. Of course the transmission doesn't want to find neutral and gear shifts are the worst of any bike I've ever owned! I complained to the dealer, but he assured me all were that way. He insisted on the 1st/600 mile service being done there. He adjusted the valves and changed the oil with his favorite Suzuki brand...I take the bike up to Tellico Plains and we beat all 3 of them to death on the Cherokee National Park fire roads and trails for 4 days. Thousands of shifts, missed shifts, over revs,  (break-in of new MX boots is hard on the foot and the bike!). I returned back home with 1,200 total miles on my DR650 and the transmission still hated giving up her neutral and still made the dreaded "CLUNK" when going from neutral to 1st - all because the engine is spinning at a high 1,500 rpm and the plates are over-sized. I put the bike up on my stand and drained the oil and filter the following day. This time I was going to put in my magic sauce - that Motul 7100. The bike and shifting changed instantly. Neutral was a "click" and easy to find and going into 1st from neutral no longer moved the bike 2" forward. The difference is so great that I took the bike up to the Suzuki dealership the next day and had them ride it. They agree and they all said that they would use it in their personal bikes going forward.

These are real results and I personally swear by the stuff. I don't begin to know what the differences are, but I will not use another oil in any bike that I intend to keep and use. It's not cheap, but I'm 110% sure it does something "better" than every other oil I've used.

Best Regards, Gordon
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 02:36:18 PM by Ilbikes »
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #154 on: July 19, 2013, 10:24:17 PM »
Hi Mark, Gordon here. Gosh, it's been a long time. I wish I had seen this thread earlier as I have some items sitting in bins that I would have sent you. Today is the first time I've spent much time looking around. This oil topic felt like a good place to say hello and give some input about an oil that I have personally found to be superior to anything else I've ever used in motorcycles.

You'll remember that I've got several old bikes and some new ones. In particular, my KZ900, Kaw GPZ750E Turbo, and my ST1300 all have what I'll describe as "notchy" shifting - the gear changes are noisy giving both the sound and feel of mechanical engagement moreso than dozens of other bikes I've ridden/owned. I've used Valvoline petroleum, Mobile-1 4T, Suzuki Synthetic, and no discernable noise or feel between those oils were detected. One oil that I had used in the KZ900 years ago came to mind and I decided to find and try it again - Motul 7100 10-40 JASO SPEC motorcycle specific oil. Wow, I don't know how I'd missed that one - immediately upon changing the KZ900's oil back to the Motul 7100, the transmission shifting was again Swiss watch-like. I immediately ordered a case and changed the Kaw Turbo and the ST1300. This oil is magic, don't know how or why, but gear shifts are 10 times better than without.

Fast-forward to today, I bought a new 2013 Suzuki DR650 dual sport bike in March for a coming TAT (Trans-American Trail) ride that 3 of us plan for late Fall or next year. We all bought 650's and decided we needed time to practice and make the mods to the bikes. This is a large single with a 1,500 rpm idle. Of course the transmission doesn't want to find neutral and gear shifts are the worst of any bike I've ever owned! I complained to the dealer, but he assured me all were that way. He insisted on the 1st/600 mile service being done there. He adjusted the valves and changed the oil with his favorite Suzuki brand...I take the bike up to Tellico Plains and we beat all 3 of them to death on the Cherokee National Park fire roads and trails for 4 days. Thousands of shifts, missed shifts, over revs,  (break-in of new MX boots is hard on the foot and the bike!). I returned back home with 1,200 total miles on my DR650 and the transmission still hated giving up her neutral and still made the dreaded "CLUNK" when going from neutral to 1st - all because the engine is spinning at a high 1,500 rpm and the plates are over-sized. I put the bike up on my stand and drained the oil and filter the following day. This time I was going to put in my magic sauce - that Motul 7100. The bike and shifting changed instantly. Neutral was a "click" and easy to find and going into 1st from neutral no longer moved the bike 2" forward. The difference is so great that I took the bike up to the Suzuki dealership the next day and had them ride it. They agree and they all said that they would use it in their personal bikes going forward.

These are real results and I personally swear by the stuff. I don't begin to know what the differences are, but I will not use another oil in any bike that I intend to keep and use. It's not cheap, but I'm 110% sure it does something "better" than every other oil I've used.

Best Regards, Gordon

Thanks, Gordon! I'll give it a try after the reassembly and break-in. It's got some pieces I got from you in the tranny, too, notably the forks.

Right now I am stalled because my machinist, who became uber-busy this year like nothing he's ever seen before, rushed through my valve job and ruined my one and only remaining set of Stellite, non-sealed, K0/1 exhaust valve guides (and 2 whole sets of APE bronze intake guides, too). He over-bored them, claiming he looked it up on the Internet: this, after I have trained him for 5 years on these heads, he decides he knows better, and ruined all of the guides. More than once. Now it will be 3 times on the intakes and twice on the exhausts, so I just decided to get my own set of new reamers and hones, seat cutters, and the like, and might end up putting in a 4th set of guides myself, if he screws it up again. IF he even re-does the head before he goes on vacation, leaving me head-less until late August, since early June, Grrr.... I took it to him with .0028" to .0032" valve clearance: the smallest one it came back with was .0042" and the worst was over .008". That's just carelessness...

There, I feel [somewhat] better...I think... :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline brandEn

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #155 on: July 19, 2013, 10:38:50 PM »
YIKES!

That is horrible news Mark!
Why would a machinist that you know and have used to do the same same job before decide to make his own decision based on a Google search?! UGH... man I feel for ya. I know that feeling.

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #156 on: July 20, 2013, 04:28:11 AM »
It is a good thing you don't take this personal and have him swimming with the fishes as they say...
Is the work going to be free after him screwing up so much impossible to find bits?
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline 754

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #157 on: July 20, 2013, 10:06:11 AM »
Was he reaming the guides? How do you get up from a low 4 thou, up to a 8thou clearance with a reamer ??..unless it piles up with chips..
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Offline MOONDOGNYC

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #158 on: July 20, 2013, 07:44:57 PM »
Straight six...nice.  I'm aprtial to the Dodge 225 myself.
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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #159 on: July 21, 2013, 12:13:36 AM »
It is a good thing you don't take this personal and have him swimming with the fishes as they say...
Is the work going to be free after him screwing up so much impossible to find bits?

It will be, unless I lose my cool shortly and go get my head to do it myself. I'm about 5 minutes from that, but it's 1 AM right now, have until Monday to cool off...I don't really have the time right now, running out of our short summer already.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #160 on: July 21, 2013, 12:28:21 AM »
Was he reaming the guides? How do you get up from a low 4 thou, up to a 8thou clearance with a reamer ??..unless it piles up with chips..

He claimed that on the first 4 guides he ruined (bronzes one from CycleX I brought him) that he overdid the chip load, ended up at .010". Wouldn't you think you'd notice chunks that size coming from the reamer!?

Then he replaced those 4 (using my 4 spare ones from the set of 8 I had) and did it again, coming up with the numbers I showed above, a week later. At that same time, he misread one of the exhaust valve stems with his mic (so he said) and still somehow bored another .002" over THAT figure (+.002 nominal), making it at least .262" for a .258" stem.

On top of that, I discovered the guides are tapered a LOT, wider at the head end, which indicates old, dull reamers, and too much pressure being applied: this makes them tighter through the head itself and looser toward the chamber where the reamer enters.

Normal practice on these guides (in my experience) in a Honda shop was to ream in .001" steps to the target. Sometimes this meant 4 or 5 trips through a guide, but that is the process. Today we have excellent tiny hones so we can ream to the stem size, then hone to the final: he doesn't seem to have this equipment (why? I do...) in his machine shop.

the strange part of all this: he's been doing heads for me for almost 5 years now. I check every one (my OCD is showing?) and when I got 2 heads in May that suddenly went well over .004", we discovered that some of the cast iron valve guides will fracture if you install the bronze liners in them, during the broaching pass. Well, OK, I can live with that: I just had new guides installed to those 2 heads instead and chalked the loss up to schooling. (Turns out, non-Stellite guides are the culprit, here, so post-1972 heads don't qualify). What I discovered in all of this: they don't even check it, now. They say they are "too busy". WHAT!? Too busy for what? To check that you didn't do it right? That's what really got to me.

These bikes run best with tight guides, and lose power quickly with loose ones. The intakes are spec'd at .0005" to .0012" clearance nominal, the exhausts at .0016"-.0024". I've had him building them at .0010" intakes and .0020" exhaust and he's held to it, until now.

So, I'm shopping around for a reamer motor and hone chuck. I just can't accept this, not in my engine, nor anyone else's that I rebuild.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 10:52:33 PM by HondaMan »
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline 70CB750

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #161 on: July 21, 2013, 05:13:01 AM »
The slant 6 was a great engine. I was sorry to see it go by the wayside..

I have straight 6 in my CJ7 - 258 engine to be precise.
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Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #162 on: July 21, 2013, 11:50:18 AM »
Hondaman/Mark, maybe he is having a bit of dementia setting in cause the lapse... sounds like you need to start doing it yourself or find another machinist/machine shop that can follow instructions.
Good luck...rest easy, bp needs to come down and will when you take control of the situation and do what you know you need to do.
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #163 on: July 21, 2013, 10:54:12 PM »
Good luck...rest easy, bp needs to come down and will when you take control of the situation and do what you know you need to do.

Yeah, that reminds me...where IS my Jim Beam, anyway?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bjatwood

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #164 on: July 22, 2013, 05:53:33 AM »
Quote from: HondaMan link=topic=122379.msg1414006#msg1414006 /quote
Yeah, that reminds me...where IS my Jim Beam, anyway?

Mark,
If I ever make it to Colorado again, I will pass by your house, talk bikes and give you a pint of famous Templeton Rye from a "source" in Iowa I know. Promise  ;)
Brian
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #165 on: July 22, 2013, 06:08:43 AM »
This is why I have the guides honed to the correct Serdi pilot.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline 754

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #166 on: July 22, 2013, 09:56:14 AM »
Bronze is tough to ream,hard on reamer..I can see maybe tightening up..

 What do the hones look like?
 If you want total control, just do them yourself.. End of problem..
 Did you say he put a liner in an existing guide ?. Seems like a thin guide to be doing that, plus how do you stay concentric, drilling thru an oval hole ?
Maker of the WELDLESS 750 Frame Kit
dodogas99@gmail.com
Kelowna B.C.       Canada

My next bike will be a ..ANFOB.....

It's All part of the ADVENTURE...

73 836cc.. Green, had it for 3 decades!!
Lost quite a few CB 750's along the way

Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #167 on: July 22, 2013, 11:01:20 AM »
Bronze is tough to ream,hard on reamer..I can see maybe tightening up..

What do the hones look like?
 If you want total control, just do them yourself.. End of problem..
 Did you say he put a liner in an existing guide ?. Seems like a thin guide to be doing that, plus how do you stay concentric, drilling thru an oval hole ?
Here is a car head having the guides honed....same process. Offers good control and produces a cross hatch on the guide ID (helps retains some oil in there).
Honing the Valve Guides with Danny
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #168 on: July 22, 2013, 05:16:27 PM »
This is why I have the guides honed to the correct Serdi pilot.
That's where I'm headed next, but by hand. :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline danfr

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #169 on: July 22, 2013, 09:15:04 PM »
Stones are where it's at! My coworker, Gene is a cylinder head wizard (also shares a love for 750's). He will often finish his Serdi cuts with the stones for that 100% married seal.

If our shop was closer to you, I would recommend you come on by and we could take care of you!! Sorry to hear about your machining mishaps!

Dan
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Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #170 on: July 23, 2013, 05:51:55 AM »
Stones are where it's at! My coworker, Gene is a cylinder head wizard (also shares a love for 750's). He will often finish his Serdi cuts with the stones for that 100% married seal.

If our shop was closer to you, I would recommend you come on by and we could take care of you!! Sorry to hear about your machining mishaps!

Dan
After the Serdi cut a 5 second lap is all it takes. You can do a vacuum pull while the head is still on the Serdi (it has the vacuum set up with the gauge on the machine). Stone seat cutting is going the way off the dinosaurs fellas (if it hasn't already).
 CNC seat cutting is vogue and holds cutting to a tenth (I don't know how that really happens as the valve always needs clearance in the guide) I suppose it just pertains to the concentrics of the seat when cut.
 Whatever.....the Serdi is....and has been for years ....the industry standard. Embrace it guys and you will be very happy.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #171 on: July 23, 2013, 09:52:23 PM »
Stones are where it's at! My coworker, Gene is a cylinder head wizard (also shares a love for 750's). He will often finish his Serdi cuts with the stones for that 100% married seal.

If our shop was closer to you, I would recommend you come on by and we could take care of you!! Sorry to hear about your machining mishaps!

Dan
After the Serdi cut a 5 second lap is all it takes. You can do a vacuum pull while the head is still on the Serdi (it has the vacuum set up with the gauge on the machine). Stone seat cutting is going the way off the dinosaurs fellas (if it hasn't already).
 CNC seat cutting is vogue and holds cutting to a tenth (I don't know how that really happens as the valve always needs clearance in the guide) I suppose it just pertains to the concentrics of the seat when cut.
 Whatever.....the Serdi is....and has been for years ....the industry standard. Embrace it guys and you will be very happy.

I'd already have one if I had the $$! Wanted one for many moons. :(
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #172 on: July 27, 2013, 11:03:34 PM »
OK: DON'T USE THE ACE HARDWARE TEST TUBE RUBBER STOPS for anti-ringing rubber plugs...  :-\

After the machine shop totally pooched my head, he put it through his oven at 350 degrees 4 times to swap out/in the valve guides (twice more). The little rubber plugs I made have either fallen out on their own, or fell out today when I was removing the valve guides (again) to prepare for installation of my next ones (myself...   >:(  ).

The rubber appears to turn to stone after just a few trips to 350 degrees. Since the heads run at about 325 degrees near the exhaust 'flowers', they will surely disappear in a hurry on yours, too.

Now I gotta go find the ones we used to use in the 1980s. A local distributor of bike parts (now retired) used to sell test tube stoppers just for this, and they worked for many years in my head, slowly disappearing as they crumbled (since 1980). I removed the last 5 of them when I started this head, very hard but still fitting OK. The ones from Ace are junk.

Sorry!  :-[
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

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Offline chewbacca5000

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #173 on: July 28, 2013, 07:16:06 PM »
Sorry to hear about your machine shop woes wish you were closer and I drop it off at my guy.  He did my head with a serdi machine, and another member had new bronze guides installed without incident.  Not the fastest, but I don't complain since the prices are more than reasonable.  I just tell him to get to it when you get to it and he gives me a great deal.

Offline Gman

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #174 on: July 28, 2013, 08:13:03 PM »
OK: DON'T USE THE ACE HARDWARE TEST TUBE RUBBER STOPS for anti-ringing rubber plugs...  :-\

The rubber appears to turn to stone after just a few trips to 350 degrees. Since the heads run at about 325 degrees near the exhaust 'flowers', they will surely disappear in a hurry on yours, too.


Just a thought - don't powdercoaters use silicone plugs to seal holes?  They obviously are good to go at higher temps, as they bake pc.  Might you get some from a local shop or find a pc supplier that would part with just a few.  OR, maybe a forum member who powdercoats could weigh in...

Good luck,
G
'76 CB550K
Stock airbox, MotoGPWerks 4-1, HondaMan ignition, Lesters