Author Topic: Headline: Hondaman rebuilds his old friend - FOUND GOOD OIL!  (Read 116472 times)

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Offline 70CB750

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #325 on: November 25, 2013, 03:53:20 AM »
I thought  you rebuilt your oil hoses.
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Offline jojo

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #326 on: November 25, 2013, 03:08:03 PM »
Mark:
I'm unclear on where these o-rings go. Are these only for K0 thru K2/3?
These are  my measurements from new Cycle-x rubbers.
The oil jets are 1.9 x 5.9
The oil pucks are 2.8 x 26
That leaves the sleeves over the head studs 1.9thick x 8.3high x 14.2od
Course this is a K6 head and I'm using the dowels too.

Hope this isn't a dumb question.
Thanks
Steve

These are the 2 in the center rear of the cylinders, which feed the oil to the head. They are the 2 recessed ones nearest the cam tunnel, at the back.

anyway you can post a pic of the 2 recessed ones?

Thank you very much for the picture. I just finished installing the head on my cylinders but the service manual for my 72k only called out for 2 o rings. On your picture, they are the the middle ones on the lower side, just next to the rubber wheel. Did i screw this up? Sorry to threadjack im just paranoid that I  did something wrong and all my work and money will go to waste. First time rebuilding a motorcycle engine.


I added the arrows in the pic below so you could see for yourself and let me know, hopefully if i did this correctly. I only installed the orings the manual called out for.

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #327 on: November 25, 2013, 10:39:18 PM »
I thought  you rebuilt your oil hoses.

I am not yet happy with the new crimper. It's me, not the crimper: I'm green at it. I bought about 100 crimp rings (50 to practice with, THEN I'll be happy...) to make new hoses and put them on. The [pretty] new fabric-covered, steel-mesh-reinforced hose is about 1mm larger OD, so it has to be just right to fit into the limited space between engine and frame, too. I am also searching for some springs to install inside the inner hose, which will be curved around the frame-engine interface: since I don't have a heat-treater to make them stay that way, it will be wise to hold the inside open for that day in the future when the inner liner lets go a little (like the Honda ones do once in a while) and wants to collapse a bit. This is standard fare for oilfield hosing I used to do on hydraulic systems back when.

Forewarned is forearmed...or something like that...

I do wish I had that beautiful $8k hose crimper we had in the oilfield shop, would do these perfectly in about 30 seconds!
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

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Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #328 on: November 25, 2013, 10:40:42 PM »
Mark:
I'm unclear on where these o-rings go. Are these only for K0 thru K2/3?
These are  my measurements from new Cycle-x rubbers.
The oil jets are 1.9 x 5.9
The oil pucks are 2.8 x 26
That leaves the sleeves over the head studs 1.9thick x 8.3high x 14.2od
Course this is a K6 head and I'm using the dowels too.

Hope this isn't a dumb question.
Thanks
Steve

These are the 2 in the center rear of the cylinders, which feed the oil to the head. They are the 2 recessed ones nearest the cam tunnel, at the back.

anyway you can post a pic of the 2 recessed ones?

Thank you very much for the picture. I just finished installing the head on my cylinders but the service manual for my 72k only called out for 2 o rings. On your picture, they are the the middle ones on the lower side, just next to the rubber wheel. Did i screw this up? Sorry to threadjack im just paranoid that I  did something wrong and all my work and money will go to waste. First time rebuilding a motorcycle engine.


I added the arrows in the pic below so you could see for yourself and let me know, hopefully if i did this correctly. I only installed the orings the manual called out for.


Yep, those are correct: the K2 and earlier engines only had those 2 on the top of the cylinders.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline jojo

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #329 on: November 26, 2013, 07:49:27 AM »
Thank your, you sir are the man!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #330 on: December 01, 2013, 09:30:19 PM »
I'm so psyched!
I spun up the oil PSI again today and dribbled a quart of gas into it. Fired right up, and after about 30 seconds settled down to a purr. Can't wait to get it all painted again! :)  :)  :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bwaller

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #331 on: December 02, 2013, 04:02:33 AM »
Well done HM. No matter how many rebuilds there are always butterflies with that first start up.

Offline Jerry Rxman Griffin aka MuthaF'er

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #332 on: December 02, 2013, 02:08:32 PM »
Excellent news. Now you sound like one of us giddy mortals  ;D How did you get the pressure to come up? Quickly?

AND, just in time for this week of below zero F weather  :)
As of today 3/13/2012 my original owner 75 CB750F has made it through 3 wives, er EX-wives. Free at last.  ;-)

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #333 on: December 02, 2013, 04:47:12 PM »
Excellent news. Now you sound like one of us giddy mortals  ;D How did you get the pressure to come up? Quickly?

Uh...no. Last week (maybe 2 weeks ago?) I had the plugs out and spun it for almost 45 seconds on and off, but it would not come up. That's when I put my handy-dandy infrared heater on it for about 30 minutes, then tried again - THEN it came right up. It was about 30 degrees outside, and the oil just would not let the air bubble out of the feed line, in either direction.

Before this is over, I'm thinking about making a pump to apply a couple of PSI to the oil tank to help these startups start up. I'll have to plug the return line, and the vent, then apply the pressure and leave it for a few minutes, which should give it the hint. Then spin the engine w/o the sparkplugs, so as to fill up the filter. Once the filter gets it, the top end has it in about 3 more seconds from dry. Once those top-end feeder pipes are full, the top end gets it in about 2 seconds after start.

Quote
AND, just in time for this week of below zero F weather  :)

Yeah. I know. :(
Can't even paint, now...this job at work has had me tied up since May almost 90% of my life, but is FINALLY coming to a finish. :D
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #334 on: January 01, 2014, 10:19:52 PM »
Aha! I found a lower-cost place to get some zinc!
http://davidnavone.com/zddp-oil-products/

They are selling the ZDDP Plus additive for less than the insane prices I've found on racing sites. I bought some, will test it out.

The overall test method: use diesel-rated low-detergent oils, add zinc.
The best-possible scenario: find some way to import Penrite oil. They make a perfect candidate, which appears to be the same as the old Castrol XLR - IMO, the exact oil for these machines. I may have to become an importer?
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MRieck

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Offline bwaller

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #336 on: January 02, 2014, 11:42:00 AM »
This whole oil deal is driving me nuts. I've read until blue in the face and it's such a personal topic.

I've been using Castrol 4T 10W-40 with ZDDP additive and changing after every race event. The rocker pads/cam lobes are perfect. I do wonder however if bearing shells seem to show wear faster, plus if shifting could be smoother. I have decided to start the season with exactly the same oil and send a sample for testing after the first race weekend for analysis. It won't answer all my questions but should show if there are metals related to bearing wear.


Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #337 on: January 02, 2014, 11:51:30 AM »
This whole oil deal is driving me nuts. I've read until blue in the face and it's such a personal topic.

I've been using Castrol 4T 10W-40 with ZDDP additive and changing after every race event. The rocker pads/cam lobes are perfect. I do wonder however if bearing shells seem to show wear faster, plus if shifting could be smoother. I have decided to start the season with exactly the same oil and send a sample for testing after the first race weekend for analysis. It won't answer all my questions but should show if there are metals related to bearing wear.
You better make those bearing last as Honda list them as NLA Brent. That is for both the con and crank bearings.
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline bwaller

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #338 on: January 02, 2014, 01:10:14 PM »
This whole oil deal is driving me nuts. I've read until blue in the face and it's such a personal topic.

I've been using Castrol 4T 10W-40 with ZDDP additive and changing after every race event. The rocker pads/cam lobes are perfect. I do wonder however if bearing shells seem to show wear faster, plus if shifting could be smoother. I have decided to start the season with exactly the same oil and send a sample for testing after the first race weekend for analysis. It won't answer all my questions but should show if there are metals related to bearing wear.

You better make those bearing last as Honda list them as NLA Brent. That is for both the con and crank bearings.

Agreed Mike, I only have one new set in stock, plus some reasonably good used including your set. It's only speculation on my part, I know some people would just recommend a full syn oil but I'm hardheaded.

Sorry Mark....back to you.

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #339 on: January 02, 2014, 09:31:46 PM »
Mark, just catching up on the thread...glad you have a good startup.  Yeah, I could use some ride therapy myself. Doc took me off some of my meds and I'm feeling the loss as one was helping bolster problems I have been having with excess fatigue.
Enjoying the thread and learning from you is always a good thing. Mike and Brent contributions I welcome...sorry for the segue, feel free to slash my off topic posts.

Ezibleed by Gunston uses a pressurized cap for the brake MC on autos and 10psi from spare tire or other air source. A small mister bottle popular during summer that you put cold water in and then pressurize could provide you a pressurized air source for your pressurized oil tank idea.  Sams club carries them in summer but a pressurized pop bottle could provide similar source of air...one way on input valve would be recommended.  Aluminum water bottle could be tapped an epoxied for pressure source as well with appropriate fittings.  Probably need some volume though.

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #340 on: January 02, 2014, 09:38:54 PM »
This whole oil deal is driving me nuts. I've read until blue in the face and it's such a personal topic.

I've been using Castrol 4T 10W-40 with ZDDP additive and changing after every race event. The rocker pads/cam lobes are perfect. I do wonder however if bearing shells seem to show wear faster, plus if shifting could be smoother. I have decided to start the season with exactly the same oil and send a sample for testing after the first race weekend for analysis. It won't answer all my questions but should show if there are metals related to bearing wear.



I'd like to see your results, too! :)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #341 on: January 02, 2014, 09:50:54 PM »
This whole oil deal is driving me nuts. I've read until blue in the face and it's such a personal topic.

I've been using Castrol 4T 10W-40 with ZDDP additive and changing after every race event. The rocker pads/cam lobes are perfect. I do wonder however if bearing shells seem to show wear faster, plus if shifting could be smoother. I have decided to start the season with exactly the same oil and send a sample for testing after the first race weekend for analysis. It won't answer all my questions but should show if there are metals related to bearing wear.

You better make those bearing last as Honda list them as NLA Brent. That is for both the con and crank bearings.

Agreed Mike, I only have one new set in stock, plus some reasonably good used including your set. It's only speculation on my part, I know some people would just recommend a full syn oil but I'm hardheaded.

Sorry Mark....back to you.

The full synth that I used (before it creeped out everywhere) made a solid shifting improvement. After 2 years of it, the sealants in the gaskets all dissolved and I couldn't keep the engine clean unless I washed it every 2 weeks or so. Then the "big storm" hit it and the ice cracked the cam cover gasket, that was the last straw, for me.

I have a Proto-Trak mill at work, hope to learn to use it this summer. I want to experiment with using an O-ring gasket on the cam cover. I think a 3mm or so diameter would work, and would hold in the synth OK there. That was the leaky-est point, even before the storm damage, because the head travels so much under the cover during heating and cooling cycles. The seam of the O-ring could be set toward the back of the head where the oil does not rest up against it, as that will be the bump in the seal, so to speak.

The side covers could get one of the newer 'synthetic-rated' sealants, which would keep them drier, too. I have heard of (but don't yet know enough about) a synthetic-rated paper gasket replacement material, supposedly a very thin plastic laminate invented by Ford in the late 1980s for synthetic oil use. Trying to find out more about it. I'd have to cut my own gaskets, but that might take a whole hour?

So...bearing shells are going NLA? Hmm...might be another opportunity, there.  ;)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline bwaller

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #342 on: January 03, 2014, 04:51:49 AM »
I use a steel/viton base gasket and running constant high rpm's just shows little oil weepage. I'm nervous a syn would make that worse. After I have testing done, I may try some to know for sure.

I'm hoping these 500/550 crank bearings will be available again in time. Seems this has been the case before with certain parts.

Otherwise if you're able to reproduce these ... good deal!

I have found that some of Hondas cover o-rings have become thinner and some of the aftermarket co's offer thicker rings which hopefully seal better as long as the material holds up.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2014, 09:34:50 AM by bwaller »

Offline SF

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #343 on: January 03, 2014, 07:57:04 AM »
Great info here guys hope you don't mind me tagging along, I need to learn as much as possible to save my cb's
92 wr250 sold
98 zx6r sold
04 zx10r
73 cb350 twin
75 cb550f
75 cb550f
72 r5c
rgid springer bobber project

Offline MRieck

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #344 on: January 03, 2014, 08:01:23 AM »
I am using the CycleX steel/foam cam cover gasket. Harley's use the same type of gaskets. Nice for the older stuff with all the divots , scratches etc etc on both surfaces. I have to say it fit absolutely perfect. Not cheap but reusable and should last a very long time.
 I am surprised Brent isn't using apple cider in that race bike. ;) ;D ;D
Owner of the "Million Dollar CB"

Offline RAFster122s

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #345 on: January 03, 2014, 03:33:39 PM »
Hard cider fog injection Mike...shhhh!  It is sprayed on the filter before he leaves the pits and give him a 3-4 lap boost.

Seriously, back in the day of electric RC racing there was a material you could apply to your commutator of electric RC cars and it gave you better performance the first few laps until it wore off.  It has fallen out of vogue or is illegal...plus these days they are racing brushless motors with LiPo batteries instead of brushed motors and Nicads or brushed motors and NiMH batteries.

David
David- back in the desert SW!

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #346 on: January 03, 2014, 08:17:26 PM »
Hard cider fog injection Mike...shhhh!  It is sprayed on the filter before he leaves the pits and give him a 3-4 lap boost.

Seriously, back in the day of electric RC racing there was a material you could apply to your commutator of electric RC cars and it gave you better performance the first few laps until it wore off.  It has fallen out of vogue or is illegal...plus these days they are racing brushless motors with LiPo batteries instead of brushed motors and Nicads or brushed motors and NiMH batteries.

David

That 'stuff' is LPS-1. I used to sell it! If you have a bike that gets wet points (Seattle riders, are you reading this?) you can spray it on and they will run, even submerged. When I had my shop, we sprayed it on the dirt bikes with the points-magnetos (Suzys) for enduro racing. The bikes could be ridden through a deep pond or creek, filling the points cover full of water, and the spark never missed a beat. The only thing that would stop our shop racer (TM250) was water in the air filter, somehow getting into the snorkel.

It's an incredible polymer that hates itself but loves metals: when sprayed on the contacts it closes over the almost instantly as the points open, and when they close it scrams out of the way like roaches when you turn on the lights. I once saw a high-speed video of it in action, truly amazing stuff. The first demo I saw was a guy who sprayed in on some points, fired up the bike, and turned a garden hose right on the points. The bike never skipped.

I still use it, myself, on the points in all my vehicles. And, it works great on model train tracks, too, keeps the corrosion away and the wheels from building up gunk. It also revives the switch contacts in our handlebar switches, the contacts in our plugs and bullet connectors, and keeps the ground lugs from ever corroding. Ever.
:)
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline HondaMan

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #347 on: January 03, 2014, 08:26:18 PM »
I am using the CycleX steel/foam cam cover gasket. Harley's use the same type of gaskets. Nice for the older stuff with all the divots , scratches etc etc on both surfaces. I have to say it fit absolutely perfect. Not cheap but reusable and should last a very long time.
 I am surprised Brent isn't using apple cider in that race bike. ;) ;D ;D

What do those gaskets look like, "M"? Are they especially for holding in synth oils, maybe?

On the heads of these bikes, in some cases I have been adding O-rings (2x12mm) into the large-hole-style head gaskets (made for the post-1973 engines), when building the 836 kits into the earlier engines. The only 836 size gasket I have seen that fits the early bikes is the Cometic (they have come with Wiesco piton kits) and they have the smaller holes for the cylinder studs. I've had to punch those out to 14mm to fit them on the later engines, or get a different head gasket.

I've had good luck with installing these O-rings in the heads on those bikes using Mobil 1 oils, at least on the head gaskets. The cam covers still weep on the front, in front of each valve spring, as do the side covers (at their bottoms) where the oil rests. Not a lot, just enough to make a mess after a while.

I also found the holes in the "cheap" 836cc kits' head gaskets are often 15mm in size. I use a 2x13mm O-ring in those, when doing the earlier engines.
See SOHC4shop@gmail.com for info about the gadgets I make for these bikes.

The demons are repulsed when a man does good. Use that.
Blood is thicker than water, but motor oil is thicker yet...so, don't mess with my SOHC4, or I might have to hurt you.
Hondaman's creed: "Bikers are family. Treat them accordingly."

Link to Hondaman Ignition: http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=67543.0

Link to My CB750 Book: https://www.lulu.com/search?adult_audience_rating=00&page=1&pageSize=10&q=my+cb750+book

Link to website: www.SOHC4shop.com

Offline MoMo

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #348 on: January 03, 2014, 09:51:14 PM »
I had totally forgotten about LPS  HM,  every rider out of our shop and in the enduro club used it for the same purpose you mentioned- and no one  ever broke down from wet ignition.  Or..............100% or the riders said it worked 60% or the time ::)...Larry

Offline Bill/BentON Racing

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Re: Headline: Hondaman gives in and rebuilds his old friend!
« Reply #349 on: January 04, 2014, 09:52:30 AM »
Couple clutch basket pics, the banded one is the best one as Hondaman said.....yes I have some! ;) ;D Bill

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