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Author Topic: Where do you think this oil is coming from?  (Read 5521 times)

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Offline Tulsa

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Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« on: September 24, 2013, 09:43:58 AM »
anyone seen this before?  See Pic at the bottom attachment.  Puddles on the top of the left most cylinder cooling fin... bike is on side stand so it is pooling on the left.  I wrote a lengthy post on this but it got erased when I enter the verification letters wrong, so sorry for the short first post.  happy to be here btw, long time reader, new member.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2013, 09:52:33 AM »
Quote from: Tulsa on September 24, 2013, 09:43:58 AM
anyone seen this before?  See Pic at the bottom attachment.  Puddles on the top of the left most cylinder cooling fin... bike is on side stand so it is pooling on the left.  I wrote a lengthy post on this but it got erased when I enter the verification letters wrong, so sorry for the short first post.  happy to be here btw, long time reader, new member.
Being a new member, you will face some obstacles to posting that will go away soon.

Gravity dictates the oil is coming from somewhere above the pool. The tach drive is a sneaky place for a leak. The tappet covers, and the cam cover gasket are others.
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Offline flybox1

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2013, 10:08:01 AM »
^+1
easy - check for old/hard tappet cover o-rings. 
not so easy - valve cover gasket leak.  re-torque of bolts might alleviate the leak. if not, gotta replace the gasket.
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2013, 10:40:03 AM »
Thanks guys.  I will see if those o-rings are dry and cracked, check the tach drive as well, then if no change, the new cam cover gasket...is that the long squiggly o-ring looking one?  It almost looks as though one could change the cam cover gasket w/o dropping the engine...
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Offline Deltarider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2013, 10:43:42 AM »
Looking at the picture I'd say it's not that bad.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2013, 11:01:22 AM »
Quote from: Tulsa on September 24, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
Thanks guys.  I will see if those o-rings are dry and cracked, check the tach drive as well, then if no change, the new cam cover gasket...is that the long squiggly o-ring looking one?  It almost looks as though one could change the cam cover gasket w/o dropping the engine...
Clean the engine really good, then puff some talcum powder on the suspicious arias. If it gets wet, you'll know where to go.

The cam cover gasket is a flat paper gasket. Others have claimed they have changed one by carefully wiggling it out then a new one back in. I think it can be done, but no first hand experience.  I'm betting on the tach drive.   ;)
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2013, 11:02:54 AM »
Quote from: Deltarider on September 24, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
Looking at the picture I'd say it's not that bad.
Do you have a special pair of pants you wear when you ride?  ;)
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Offline Pecantree

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2013, 11:22:36 AM »
Learn the search function.
This is an ongoing issue with lots of folks here. (me too ::))
What Ron said about tracking where it's coming from is  important.
It will tell you what you need to focus on.

A bad fork seal leak can pool on the engine also.
brandEn did a good writeup here.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
I'd say about 70 to 80% of questions asked have already been answered.

Good luck with this
Steve
PS. Post bigger pictures, we like pictures!
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2013, 01:00:17 PM »
Quote from: Deltarider on September 24, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
Looking at the picture I'd say it's not that bad.

It may not be THAT bad, but its surely worse than you might imagine

If it runs for a few seconds (bike isn't able to idle for long currently, my fault likely-see below), i will see it pool up after sitting on side stand in a matter of a few min.

New to me bike,
has been sitting at least 2 - 4 years, never ridden it,
only just got it to start, dies after less than 10 sec (my fault, no air box or pods, 4-1 exhaust with 90 mains, plus headers 3 and 4 were only partially bolted on, so they were making it run HOT)

 I plan on putting 100 main jets, and re-installing the stock box with stock filter and giving it another shot, but I want to sort out this oil leak on top of the engine first. 
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2013, 01:02:31 PM »
Quote from: Pecantree on September 24, 2013, 11:22:36 AM
Learn the search function.
This is an ongoing issue with lots of folks here. (me too ::))
What Ron said about tracking where it's coming from is  important.
It will tell you what you need to focus on.

A bad fork seal leak can pool on the engine also.
brandEn did a good writeup here.
http://forums.sohc4.net/index.php?topic=107040.0
I'd say about 70 to 80% of questions asked have already been answered.

Good luck with this
Steve
PS. Post bigger pictures, we like pictures!

Will do.  Used it a bunch thus far!  Thanks pcn ;)tree
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2013, 01:03:25 PM »
Quote from: MCRider on September 24, 2013, 11:02:54 AM
Quote from: Deltarider on September 24, 2013, 10:43:42 AM
Looking at the picture I'd say it's not that bad.
Do you have a special pair of pants you wear when you ride?  ;)
:D ;D :D ;D :D ;D
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2013, 01:06:30 PM »
Quote from: MCRider on September 24, 2013, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: Tulsa on September 24, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
Thanks guys.  I will see if those o-rings are dry and cracked, check the tach drive as well, then if no change, the new cam cover gasket...is that the long squiggly o-ring looking one?  It almost looks as though one could change the cam cover gasket w/o dropping the engine...
Clean the engine really good, then puff some talcum powder on the suspicious arias. If it gets wet, you'll know where to go.

The cam cover gasket is a flat paper gasket. Others have claimed they have changed one by carefully wiggling it out then a new one back in. I think it can be done, but no first hand experience.  I'm betting on the tach drive.   ;)

MC, thank you.  I will try this indeed, what a great tip. 
The cam cover is the bigger gasket, no?  Bigger in relation to the crank breather top gasket i mean...
or am i confused?  Well, I am confused in general, but that is diff, lol
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2013, 02:52:46 PM »
In the area closest to the pool is the rocker shaft end cap  two oring there at each end.

Rubber bits sometimes swell up after being treated to new oil.  The leak may slow down or stop after the oil circulates for a while... or not.

I do the thumbnail test on rubber seals.  If you have just one new one, you can dig your thumbnail into it to check for it's resiliency.  Then you can do the same test fort the old ones.  If they are more like metal than rubber, they need to be renewed.

I like the foot powder technique to locate the source. 

The cam cover/cylinder cover is fraught with danger open re-installation.  It's a shame to trade a leaky seal for a bent valve or two.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #13 on: September 24, 2013, 05:24:45 PM »
Quote from: Tulsa on September 24, 2013, 01:06:30 PM
Quote from: MCRider on September 24, 2013, 11:01:22 AM
Quote from: Tulsa on September 24, 2013, 10:40:03 AM
Thanks guys.  I will see if those o-rings are dry and cracked, check the tach drive as well, then if no change, the new cam cover gasket...is that the long squiggly o-ring looking one?  It almost looks as though one could change the cam cover gasket w/o dropping the engine...
Clean the engine really good, then puff some talcum powder on the suspicious arias. If it gets wet, you'll know where to go.

The cam cover gasket is a flat paper gasket. Others have claimed they have changed one by carefully wiggling it out then a new one back in. I think it can be done, but no first hand experience.  I'm betting on the tach drive.   ;)

MC, thank you.  I will try this indeed, what a great tip. 
The cam cover is the bigger gasket, no?  Bigger in relation to the crank breather top gasket i mean...
or am i confused?  Well, I am confused in general, but that is diff, lol
Yes, the cam cover is the whole cover on the top of the head. The smaller breather with the rubber ORing (I wondered where you came up with an ORIng) seldom leaks oil, if ever.

In order of probability: tach drive, tappet covers (round dudes with ORIngs) cam cover, cover breather. IMO

OOps my WAY BAD. I thought we were looking at a 750. So take my advice for what its wrth. TT is the man on 500/550s.

Certainly the wiggle ORing on the 550 cam cover can be replaced without pulling the engine.

Many subtle, and not so subtle, diffs between 750 and 550.   :-[
« Last Edit: September 24, 2013, 05:28:02 PM by MCRider »
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #14 on: October 10, 2013, 03:12:44 PM »
Quote from: TwoTired on September 24, 2013, 02:52:46 PM
In the area closest to the pool is the rocker shaft end cap  two oring there at each end.

Rubber bits sometimes swell up after being treated to new oil.  The leak may slow down or stop after the oil circulates for a while... or not.

I do the thumbnail test on rubber seals.  If you have just one new one, you can dig your thumbnail into it to check for it's resiliency.  Then you can do the same test fort the old ones.  If they are more like metal than rubber, they need to be renewed.

I like the foot powder technique to locate the source. 

The cam cover/cylinder cover is fraught with danger open re-installation.  It's a shame to trade a leaky seal for a bent valve or two.

thanks tt.  I replaced the o-rings on the tappet covers with round style (as opposed to the stock flat sided style?)  ones from a variety pack (harbor freight) they fit tightly, leak is still present...if not worse, probably is because I used wrong style o-rings.  (maybe just paranoia and frustration).  Going to get the foot powder soon and will report back.

However,  I'm starting to think that I may have a bigger problem than I originally thought. The pool of oil seem excessive for a few sec of operation, could a bad ring or bent valve cause more than normal amount of oil to be pushed up into the top of the heads?  TT, what in your opinion is my worst case scenario for the oil leakage?   Feel free not to answer since I haven't even done the foot powder test yet

thanks all for your help~

   
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #15 on: October 10, 2013, 03:57:48 PM »
Quote from: Tulsa on October 10, 2013, 03:12:44 PM
  I replaced the o-rings on the tappet covers with round style (as opposed to the stock flat sided style?)  ones from a variety pack (harbor freight) they fit tightly, leak is still present...if not worse, probably is because I used wrong style o-rings.   

Ha, the tappet covers began life as round ones.  They get squished square over time and take a set.

But, those aren't the orings I was referring to.  There are covers at each end of the head and two dowels with orings on them.

Quote from: Tulsa on October 10, 2013, 03:12:44 PM
TT, what in your opinion is my worst case scenario for the oil leakage?   Feel free not to answer since I haven't even done the foot powder test yet 
Probably the most dangerous is the pucks under the cylinder cover.
Dangerous, because if the cylinder cover is installed improperly, valves get bent.
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Offline wally550k0

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #16 on: October 10, 2013, 04:54:17 PM »
Just had a similar leak with my 74.  Replacing the cam cover seal and the six pucks cured it immediately.
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Offline Don R

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #17 on: October 10, 2013, 08:10:18 PM »
I have a chrome rocker cover. I took it off and sanded it on emery cloth on a piece of glass to get it more flat. There were bulges that I sanded down. It still leaks. I think there is a metal core rubber gasket from Cycle x. I'm getting one.
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2013, 02:46:05 PM »
Quote from: TwoTired on October 10, 2013, 03:57:48 PM
Quote from: Tulsa on October 10, 2013, 03:12:44 PM
  I replaced the o-rings on the tappet covers with round style (as opposed to the stock flat sided style?)  ones from a variety pack (harbor freight) they fit tightly, leak is still present...if not worse, probably is because I used wrong style o-rings.   

Ha, the tappet covers began life as round ones.  They get squished square over time and take a set.

But, those aren't the orings I was referring to.  There are covers at each end of the head and two dowels with orings on them.

Aha! Good deal, I will replace those, thanks tt.

Quote from: Tulsa on October 10, 2013, 03:12:44 PM
TT, what in your opinion is my worst case scenario for the oil leakage?   Feel free not to answer since I haven't even done the foot powder test yet 
Probably the most dangerous is the pucks under the cylinder cover.
Dangerous, because if the cylinder cover is installed improperly, valves get bent.

What are the six pucks everyone refers to?
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Offline TwoTired

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2013, 03:32:15 PM »
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Offline Don R

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2013, 09:21:20 AM »
I think the pucks are under the cam towers inside the engine and below the top fin,  your oil is up high. Don't make more of it than it is. The center of my rocker cover is leaking and it looks just like yours. In the tips and tricks there is a picture of the O rings for the tappet covers available at car quest too. Very good quality and fit.
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Offline MCRider

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2013, 09:25:53 AM »
Don R: You may be making the same mistake I did. Bike in question is a 550. Not a 750. No cam towers, etc.
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Offline Rgconner

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2013, 09:53:26 AM »
Mine likes to leak from the bolt under the cam endcaps. There is an aluminum and copper crush washer there and they can get oozie. Expecially if an OP has replaced with a fully threaded bolt, or one with too small of a uncut shaft at the top.


Careful... it is an easy one to strip out!
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Offline Tulsa

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2013, 10:05:18 AM »
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Offline Don R

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Re: Where do you think this oil is coming from?
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2013, 12:23:12 PM »
Quote from: MCRider on October 16, 2013, 09:25:53 AM
Don R: You may be making the same mistake I did. Bike in question is a 550. Not a 750. No cam towers, etc.
Sorry, I did. I'm not usually "that guy"
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